Heresy 240: Ten Heretical Years

[LynnS]

I'm finding these podcasts really interesting.  A welcome respite from the news and COVID.

An interesting idea in this podcast, that the Wall blocks many forms of magic, including the ability to see beyond the Wall with glass candles.  It calls to mind Bran's cloak of invisibility:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

There he sat, listening to the hoarse whispers of his teacher. "Never fear the darkness, Bran." The lord's words were accompanied by a faint rustling of wood and leaf, a slight twisting of his head. "The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

 And Jon's encounter with tree-Bran:

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A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

 

The Streams of Winter: Livestream 22 - Samwell Tarly | Radio Westeros ASoIaF Podcasts on Acast

 

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

An interesting idea in this podcast, that the Wall blocks many forms of magic, including the ability to see beyond the Wall with glass candles. 

Perhaps this is the reason that the Hightower is so tall (notably taller than the Wall), it's to broadcast over the Wall.

[asongofheresy]

That makes Leyton and Mad Maid more important then, what made them lock themselves in there? 

[LynnS]

32 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Perhaps this is the reason that the Hightower is so tall (notably taller than the Wall), it's to broadcast over the Wall.

It does bring up the question who Bran is referring to when he says "he can see them, but they can't see him".  It might also answer the question of why Silverwing wouldn't or couldn't cross the Wall.  Dragons are supernatural creatures, fire made flesh just as WWs are ice made flesh.

Who besides Mel is looking for the ancient evil, the Lord of Darkness? 

There is something of a paradox with Mel's magic since her power is increasing since arriving at the Wall.  Whereas the GOHH tells Thoros his fires will be useless at Hugh Heart.  Although this doesn't stop him from raising Beric one more time. 

[LongRider]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

I sometimes wonder who is messing with the visions and dreams. 

If Val is a witch, perhaps she is? She has no love for Mel, Queen Selyse or the kneelers in general. 

[LynnS]

I'm highly diverted! An excellent reading of The Hedge Knight.  Lively and entertaining. 

 

[LynnS]

LAST H. E. R. O - YouTube

"The Last Hero should return what The First Hero stole."  

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

LAST H. E. R. O - YouTube

"The Last Hero should return what The First Hero stole."  

Hmm. It would seem Terry Pratchett is a fan of GRRM? AGOT was published in 1996 with a last hero mentioned at least four times, and Pratchett's book was published in 2001 with themes that seem to echo AGOT somewhat. The last hero in Pratchett's book goes on a quest to save a queen from an earth goddess while a "silver horde" seeks to return fire to the gods.

[LynnS]

23 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Hmm. It would seem Terry Pratchett is a fan of GRRM? AGOT was published in 1996 with a last hero mentioned at least four times, and Pratchett's book was published in 2001 with themes that seem to echo AGOT somewhat. The last hero in Pratchett's book goes on a quest to save a queen from an earth goddess while a "silver horde" seeks to return fire to the gods.

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I cannot claim to have known Terry well, but I ran into him at dozens of conventions over the decades, shared a stage with him a few times, and once or twice had the privilege of sharing a pint or a curry. He was always a delight. A bright, funny, insightful, warm, and kindly man, a man of infinite patience, a man who truly knew how to enjoy life... and books.

R.I.P Terry Pratchett (livejournal.com)

"At last Ser Terry, we must walk together."

"Terry took Death's arm and followed him through the doors and on to the black desert under the endless night."

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A Feast for Crows - Arya II

"Death is not the worst thing," the kindly man replied. "It is His gift to us, an end to want and pain. On the day that we are born the Many-Faced God sends each of us a dark angel to walk through life beside us. When our sins and our sufferings grow too great to be borne, the angel takes us by the hand to lead us to the nightlands, where the stars burn ever bright. Those who come to drink from the black cup are looking for their angels. If they are afraid, the candles soothe them. When you smell our candles burning, what does it make you think of, my child?"

 

 

[LynnS]

On 12/14/2021 at 12:31 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Perhaps this is the reason that the Hightower is so tall (notably taller than the Wall), it's to broadcast over the Wall.

What do you make of this dream:

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A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

In his dream he was climbing again, pulling himself up an ancient windowless tower, his fingers forcing themselves between blackened stones, his feet scrabbling for purchase. Higher and higher he climbed, through the clouds and into the night sky, and still the tower rose before him. When he paused to look down, his head swam dizzily and he felt his fingers slipping. Bran cried out and clung for dear life. The earth was a thousand miles beneath him and he could not fly. He could not fly. He waited until his heart had stopped pounding, until he could breathe, and he began to climb again. There was no way to go but up. Far above him, outlined against a vast pale moon, he thought he could see the shapes of gargoyles. His arms were sore and aching, but he dared not rest. He forced himself to climb faster. The gargoyles watched him ascend. Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear. He must not listen, he told himself, he must not hear, so long as he did not hear them he was safe. But when the gargoyles pulled themselves loose from the stone and padded down the side of the tower to where Bran clung, he knew he was not safe after all. "I didn't hear," he wept as they came closer and closer, "I didn't, I didn't."

He woke gasping, lost in darkness, and saw a vast shadow looming over him. "I didn't hear," he whispered, trembling in fear, but then the shadow said "Hodor," and lit the candle by the bedside, and Bran sighed with relief.

 

This is different from the crow and tree dreams.  At first blush it would seem to be a repressed memory of his fall from the First Keep.  But It's curious that he is high enough above the clouds for the God's Eye view we get in his coma dream and yet he is being observed by two grotesques from above with eyes like burning coals in a brazier.  They are watching Bran and begin to stalk him.

It calls to mind glass candles or being seen in someone's fire, hence the eyes like coals in a brazier.  He wakes and knows that he is not safe; that he is being watched.   

[LynnS]

On 12/14/2021 at 2:34 PM, LongRider said:

If Val is a witch, perhaps she is? She has no love for Mel, Queen Selyse or the kneelers in general. 

I'm not really sure what to make of Val at this point.  This description of her is certainly interesting:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

"Did you follow me as well?" Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him. "Snow," it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.

They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

 

That's certainly not how she was dressed when she left and trick of the light perhaps, Val's eyes are not blue.

[asongofheresy]

Val could be a stand-in for other characters, when her hair was silver Val could be Daenerys, Jon is not interested at her at the time and when Val says air taste sweet he disagree, then we have Val with dark honey hair and blue eyes, and a direwolf, which could make Val a stand in for Sansa and then Jon says it had been a long time he seen something lovely, I wouldn't want to get into shipper territory at all but an idea of Jon with Sansa isn't bad for me at all, certainly better than Jon and Daenerys fiasco. 

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, asongofheresy said:

Val could be a stand-in for other characters, when her hair was silver Val could be Daenerys, Jon is not interested at her at the time and when Val says air taste sweet he disagree, then we have Val with dark honey hair and blue eyes, and a direwolf, which could make Val a stand in for Sansa and then Jon says it had been a long time he seen something lovely, I wouldn't want to get into shipper territory at all but an idea of Jon with Sansa isn't bad for me at all, certainly better than Jon and Daenerys fiasco. 

Well she is certainly the maiden fair with honey in her hair.  But where did she go?  Who did she meet?  She returns wearing snow bear skins and a broach of wierwood shaped like he moon.  Her eye color appears to have changed.  Or for some reason Jon perceives them to be blue. She is accompanied by Ghost.  What's up with that?  This is starting to look like the Night King and the woman he chased and caught and made his queen.

[asongofheresy]

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well she is certainly the maiden fair with honey in her hair.  But where did she go?  Who did she meet?  She returns wearing snow bear skins and a broach of wierwood shaped like he moon.  Her eye color appears to have changed.  Or for some reason Jon perceives them to be blue. She is accompanied by Ghost.  What's up with that?  This is starting to look like the Night King and the woman he chased and caught and made his queen.

Well she obviously knew whereabouts of Tormund better than the rangers, and I think eye color change is due to her being a Sansa figure at the moment, that's why she is with a direwolf too, but I don't want her as a love interest for Jon, I love Val too much to accept it. 

[LongRider]

Val is not a stand in for Sansa or any one else.  She is a wilding and possibly a witch or other type of powerful woman.

She told Jon she would find Tormund and she did.  I guess she decided to have a change of wardrobe to too.

What I wonder is how many other powerful women went through the Wall with Tormund?  

I know Jon sent them to other towers, wonder if any will come back in the story.  Am also curious to see what role Val has to play in Winds. 

[LongRider]

I really like Val and find her an interesting character, one who may have a bit of magic to her.  Plus, I'll admit Val and Jon is one of my major ships, so there is that.     The idea that there is more to Val than what meets the page is one I'm interested in, I'm going to pursue this thread:  Tormund and Val ; Jon's Intermediaries to the Old Gods ?

I think there is also a thread about Val and Dalla and why their names refer to mythical, powerful women, the Valar, maybe?  Anyone heard of a thread like that?   

[Black Crow]

On 12/18/2021 at 4:50 PM, asongofheresy said:

Well she obviously knew whereabouts of Tormund better than the rangers, and I think eye color change is due to her being a Sansa figure at the moment, that's why she is with a direwolf too, but I don't want her as a love interest for Jon, I love Val too much to accept it. 

GRRM has admitted that he's crap when it comes to being consistent about eye colour etc

[LongRider]

On 12/12/2021 at 9:30 AM, Black Crow said:

Its worth asking what a Woods Witch in Westeros has to do with a Targaryen prophecy from Valyria - unless she works to deceive.

The Red Witch works to deceive, no?  She glamoured Mance, killed the old Maester at Storms End, tried to burn Bob’s bastard that Davos saved, burned the statues of the Seven and various humans. Did she put a spell on Ghost as part of her attempted seduction of Jon?  Does she exaggerate her visions in the fires?

 So, the wilding Woods Witches we’ve heard about don’t seem to be as deceitful and cruel as our Mellie. 
 

Will Mel, the red Fire witch, play against Val, the white woods Ice witch? 

Could Val’s white clothes, a gift to her from Dalla, have ceremonial meaning?  
 

Val told Jon she would find Tormund and when she would return, all of which she did.  So far, I’d say she hasn’t been deceitful.  She tried to explain to Selyse that she’s not a princess but Selyse didn’t listen. 

 

 

[Black Crow]

16 hours ago, LongRider said:

The Red Witch works to deceive, no?  She glamoured Mance, killed the old Maester at Storms End, tried to burn Bob’s bastard that Davos saved, burned the statues of the Seven and various humans. Did she put a spell on Ghost as part of her attempted seduction of Jon?  Does she exaggerate her visions in the fires?

 So, the wilding Woods Witches we’ve heard about don’t seem to be as deceitful and cruel as our Mellie. 
 

Will Mel, the red Fire witch, play against Val, the white woods Ice witch? 

Could Val’s white clothes, a gift to her from Dalla, have ceremonial meaning?  
 

Val told Jon she would find Tormund and when she would return, all of which she did.  So far, I’d say she hasn’t been deceitful.  She tried to explain to Selyse that she’s not a princess but Selyse didn’t listen. 

 

 

I think this is missing the point. We have a Valyrian prophecy out there of a Prince that was Promised and some Targaryens getting excited because they've been told that the lucky ticket will be drawn by someone belonging to a particular branch of their family - and this information is supposedly coming not from Valyrian, far less a Targaryen source but from a Westerosi woods witch 

[LynnS]

29 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I think this is missing the point. We have a Valyrian prophecy out there of a Prince that was Promised and some Targaryens getting excited because they've been told that the lucky ticket will be drawn by someone belonging to a particular branch of their family - and this information is supposedly coming not from Valyrian, far less a Targaryen source but from a Westerosi woods witch 

'Yes we've got some prophecy from Daenarys the Dreamer, Aerys 1 studying said prophecy,  mention of it in the Mystery Knight:

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The Mystery Knight

"Your dragon's egg." They put it in his cradle. Dunk was so used to Egg that sometimes he forgot Aegon was a prince. Of course they'd put a dragon egg inside his cradle. "Well, see that you don't go mentioning this egg where anyone is like to hear."

"I'm not stupid, ser." Egg lowered his voice. "Someday the dragons will return. My brother Daeron's dreamed of it, and King Aerys read it in a prophecy. Maybe it will be my egg that hatches. That would be splendid."

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The Mystery Knight

Not Egg. "Aemon and I used to pretend that our eggs would be the ones to hatch. If they did, we could fly through the sky on dragonback, like the first Aegon and his sisters."

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The Mystery Knight

"Easier to speak of victories than to win them." This speaker had a deeper voice than Peake, a bass rumble with an angry edge to it. "Old Milkblood expected the boy to have it, and so will all the rest. Glib words and charm cannot make up for that."

"A dragon would. The prince insists the egg will hatch. He dreamed it, just as he once dreamed his brothers dead. A living dragon will win us all the swords that we would want."

"A dragon is one thing, a dream's another. I promise you, Bloodraven is not off dreaming. We need a warrior, not a dreamer. Is the boy his father's son?"

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The Mystery Knight

"What do you want of me?"

"Your sword. I would make you mine own man, and raise you high. My dreams do not lie, Ser Duncan. You will have that white cloak, and I must have the dragon's egg. I must, my dreams have made that plain. Perhaps the egg will hatch, or else—"

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The Mystery Knight

It was late that afternoon before Ser Roland Crakehall of the Kingsguard found Dunk among the other prisoners. "Ser Duncan. Where in seven hells have you been hiding? Lord Rivers has been asking for you for hours. Come with me, if you please."

Dunk fell in beside him. Crakehall's long cloak flapped behind him with every gust of wind, as white as moonlight on snow. The sight of it made him think back on the words the Fiddler had spoken, up on the roof. I dreamed that you were all in white from head to heel, with a long pale cloak flowing from those broad shoulders. Dunk snorted. Aye, and you dreamed of dragons hatching from stone eggs. One is likely as t'other.

 

So this prophecy of the return of dragons and dragons hatching from stone has preoccupied the Targs/Blackwoos for some time and from several sources who turn out to be true dreamers.

Is there any reason to doubt the GOHH/wood witch who is the latest in a line of dreamers?  Or is it the source of the dreams and their motivations that you question? 

When Aemon tells Sam that they assumed TPWIP would be a prince rather than a princess; who is the mysterious they. 

Who has been preoccupied with the prophecies and who were his correspondents.  Rhaegar, Oberyn Martell, Bloodraven?

I'm not really surprised that the old gods would send such a dream.  Or that dreams come from different sources about the same event.  More signs and portents about when something will happen.