The Good King Aerys, second of his name. Vs Tywin Lannister, the Golden Hand. (Part 1)

[Universal Sword Donor]

4 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Not at all. The Baratheons were given nothing that amounted to anything. Proof is in the pudding. Who sits the Iron Throne, and who is either dead or got their butt kicked at the Blackwater? We know for a fact who got the most out of everything cause time showed us. By having the throne through the marriage to Robert, they had it all. They held K.L., the seat of power of the Kings. Which Stannis failed to take and claim. Claiming you are king, while not holding K.L. amounts to nothing.

A baratheon is sitting the iron throne, according to anyone in the realm

[AlaskanSandman]

Just now, Universal Sword Donor said:

A baratheon is sitting the iron throne, according to anyone in the realm

This is true, but we all know its Cersei's kid with Jamie. Tywin doesn't need to know this though, and neither do the realm. As them knowing the truth doesn't serve House Lannister. Renly and Stannis though have already tried telling the realm who Joffery and the rest really belong to. They know that they just had the throne stolen from them by House Lannister. 

Even if Joffery is legitimate, along with Tommen and Myrcella. This just secures the Lannisters even more on the throne, and denies Stannis and Renly any access to the Throne.

Lannisters marrying into the throne is def them taking over, as Cersei see's Maegery marrying Joffery and Tommen as the Tyrells taking over. Unless she can hobble them as they did the Starks, and just hold Maergery hostage as Sansa was.

We know Cersei poisoned Robert via Lancel Lannister. Upon doing such, Tywin became hand of the King again.

 

How can you be so sure that this wasn't the plan to begin with. Regardless of Jamie being the father, they had control. With legit kids, you can still kill Robert, and bring in Tywin as Hand. From there, its not hard to strip Renly and Stannis of their seats. We see this happen to House Whent and House Tully. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This is true, but we all know its Cersei's kid with Jamie. Tywin doesn't need to know this though, and neither do the realm. As them knowing the truth doesn't serve House Lannister. Renly and Stannis though have already tried telling the realm who Joffery and the rest really belong to. They know that they just had the throne stolen from them by House Lannister. 

Even if Joffery is legitimate, along with Tommen and Myrcella. This just secures the Lannisters even more on the throne, and denies Stannis and Renly any access to the Throne.

Lannisters marrying into the throne is def them taking over, as Cersei see's Maegery marrying Joffery and Tommen as the Tyrells taking over. Unless she can hobble them as they did the Starks, and just hold Maergery hostage as Sansa was.

We know Cersei poisoned Robert via Lancel Lannister. Upon doing such, Tywin became hand of the King again.

 

How can you be so sure that this wasn't the plan to begin with. Regardless of Jamie being the father, they had control. With legit kids, you can still kill Robert, and bring in Tywin as Hand. From there, its not hard to strip Renly and Stannis of their seats. We see this happen to House Whent and House Tully. 

I am fairly certain Tywin wasn't planning on his twins banging to produce kingly heirs. 

[AlaskanSandman]

45 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I am fairly certain Tywin wasn't planning on his twins banging to produce kingly heirs. 

Thats good. No one suggested that was his plan. 

[FictionIsntReal]

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Hallyne wasn't in on the plot, as all are dead now. Jamie supposedly saw to that.

He doesn't have to know what the wildfire was to be used for in order to know that Aerys ordered the production of all those "fruits".

Quote

So which is it. Did Aerys already order him to go kill his father? And this is why Jamie left his post.

Quote

"It fell to me to hold the Red Keep, but I knew we were lost. I sent to Aerys asking his leave to make terms. My man came back with a royal command. 'Bring me your father's head, if you are no traitor.' Aerys would have no yielding. Lord Rossart was with him, my messenger said. I knew what that meant.

Aerys sends Jaime an order to kill his father. Jaime then shows up with a bloody sword and asks if that's his father's blood. That bit is dialogue rather than a memory readers have direct access to, but it explains why the first thing asks is if the blood is Tywin's.

Quote

Jamie left his post before being ordered to

He was trying to defend the Red Keep, and Aerys seems to have been aware of that and able to reach him with a messenger. The message was not to return to Aerys immediately, but instead to accomplish a mission away from him.

Quote

Jamie is hardly a reliable narrator. 

The bit you quoted (after I quoted part of it) is Jaime's memory, not dialogue.

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Not at all. The Baratheons were given nothing that amounted to anything. Proof is in the pudding. Who sits the Iron Throne

Robert sat on the Iron Throne long enough for another generation to grow up. Certainly longer than any of Cersei's kids have. Cersei was able to seize Ned in a coup/countercoup to ensure Joffrey succeeded Robert but Tywin was not only not pulling the strings in KL then, he thinks Cersei was doing a terrible job and sent Tyrion to take charge.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 12/24/2021 at 10:35 AM, FictionIsntReal said:

He doesn't have to know what the wildfire was to be used for in order to know that Aerys ordered the production of all those "fruits".

Aerys sends Jaime an order to kill his father. Jaime then shows up with a bloody sword and asks if that's his father's blood. That bit is dialogue rather than a memory readers have direct access to, but it explains why the first thing asks is if the blood is Tywin's.

He was trying to defend the Red Keep, and Aerys seems to have been aware of that and able to reach him with a messenger. The message was not to return to Aerys immediately, but instead to accomplish a mission away from him.

The bit you quoted (after I quoted part of it) is Jaime's memory, not dialogue.

Robert sat on the Iron Throne long enough for another generation to grow up. Certainly longer than any of Cersei's kids have. Cersei was able to seize Ned in a coup/countercoup to ensure Joffrey succeeded Robert but Tywin was not only not pulling the strings in KL then, he thinks Cersei was doing a terrible job and sent Tyrion to take charge.

I missed the part about Aerys supposedly ordering him to hold the Red Keep. Def some good points on Jamie. Though I still suspect his father of playing a part in the downfall of Aerys, as i've said, I no longer suspect him of the wildfyre plot. Though I still question the stories of him burning people as "dipping" them in wildfyre sounds insanely dangerous to be doing and we're told how expensive it is and how Aerys left the coffers full. Despite allegedly funding all this wildfyre and Rhaegar tapping the coffers for Harrenhal. Though the Master of Coin is who points out Rhaegar as a usurper, and so does Pycelle and Varys.

Pycelle goes so far as to compare it to the moments before the Dance of the Dragons. This doesn't make sense to me though as the Dance was about the children of Viserys I fighting for the throne. It wasn't about the children usurping their father. Rhaegar isn't competing against Viserys or some other Targaryen line. They're talking about Rhaegar usurping his father. Which isn't quite the same thing. Rhaegar is heir and has no other competition. When Aerys dies, Rhaegar becomes King no matter what, and Aerys never altered his heir so far as we're told. Neither Aerys or Rhaegar have dragons either so what ever war could happen, wouldn't be near as bad as the dance. Like I said, Aerys never proclaimed another heir even, so Rhaegar was in no threat. For all these claims that he mistrusted Rhaegar, he never alters his will, and Rhaegar serves him loyally. 

As far as Jamie though, he may be mostly innocent. Though I still don't trust him. Guy pushed a kid from a Tower, was banging his sister, helped his father have Tyrion's wife gang raped infront of him, and if im not mistaken, threatens to launch Edmures kids over the wall or something rather. He supported his evil father, and his evil sister.

Plus he was wearing his gold armor that day, not the white, "but no one ever seems to remember that."

Despite Jamie "claiming" it was the Wildfyre and the order to kill his father. He wore his golden armor that day, not his white. Not suspect at all. 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 12/24/2021 at 10:35 AM, FictionIsntReal said:

He doesn't have to know what the wildfire was to be used for in order to know that Aerys ordered the production of all those "fruits".

Aerys sends Jaime an order to kill his father. Jaime then shows up with a bloody sword and asks if that's his father's blood. That bit is dialogue rather than a memory readers have direct access to, but it explains why the first thing asks is if the blood is Tywin's.

He was trying to defend the Red Keep, and Aerys seems to have been aware of that and able to reach him with a messenger. The message was not to return to Aerys immediately, but instead to accomplish a mission away from him.

The bit you quoted (after I quoted part of it) is Jaime's memory, not dialogue.

Robert sat on the Iron Throne long enough for another generation to grow up. Certainly longer than any of Cersei's kids have. Cersei was able to seize Ned in a coup/countercoup to ensure Joffrey succeeded Robert but Tywin was not only not pulling the strings in KL then, he thinks Cersei was doing a terrible job and sent Tyrion to take charge.

Considering at least, that he wore his golden armor that day. Possibly knowing his father was coming. Jamie has nightmares about Rhaegar saying he didn't protect his children. Jamie feels guilty and say's he didn't think his father would kill them.

 

So I still suspect Jamie, and he is displaying a guilty conscience and may be hiding info and lying to himself to assuage his guilt.

[EggBlue]

I do suspect Tywin Lannister for a great deal (not everything) before the rebellion. but Jaimie was too naive to be part of Tywin's plans. even as adults, Tywin doesn't care to share his plans with his children. besides, in that time Jaimie had betrayed his father to join kingsgaurd. whatever scheme Tywin had , Jaimie had nothing to do with it. 

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Pycelle goes so far as to compare it to the moments before the Dance of the Dragons. This doesn't make sense to me though as the Dance was about the children of Viserys I fighting for the throne. It wasn't about the children usurping their father. Rhaegar isn't competing against Viserys or some other Targaryen line. They're talking about Rhaegar usurping his father. Which isn't quite the same thing. Rhaegar is heir and has no other competition. When Aerys dies, Rhaegar becomes King no matter what, and Aerys never altered his heir so far as we're told. Neither Aerys or Rhaegar have dragons either so what ever war could happen, wouldn't be near as bad as the dance. Like I said, Aerys never proclaimed another heir even, so Rhaegar was in no threat. For all these claims that he mistrusted Rhaegar, he never alters his will, and Rhaegar serves him loyally. 

 

I mostly agree.

Jon Connigton's thoughts about Aerys is proof that the king was so mad that even his own son had realized that by the end. so, I wouldn't call Aerys the good king in any circumstance:) but since Yandal had already misinformed us about Elia's children's deaths,  I agree that some parts of his history on pre-rebellion court are exaggerations or even downright lies , regarding Aerys and Rhaegar's relationship in particular. we know there was bad blood between father and son at least after the way Aerys commented on Rhaegar's daughter. there probably had been some quarrels between them to make Rhaegar leave the court after his wedding , though not as bad as pre-Dance climate. but then in Harrenhal Rhaegar doesn't seem interested in winning the nobles' supports at all! and Aerys -who was suspicious of his son- trusts him to capture the mystery knight  he believes is no friend to him?! why didn't he keep the son he doesn't trust close to keep an eye on him?! and later on he decides to give that same son command of an army even though he was missing all this time and the whole war literally happened because of him? what happened did he denied the accusations in front of his dad? did Aerys know where the hell he was? granted, the army part could be because Aerys had threatened to hurt his wife and kids if he makes any mistakes but Aerys also took that son's counsel to heart to send for a man he had feared for years!

yet, these quotes give me pause:

Quote

When the battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but ... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.

is he speaking of Harrenhal? or something else? 

 

and here's Barristan's thoughts:

Quote

Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent’s tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Har renhal, and everything had gone awry from there.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

53 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I do suspect Tywin Lannister for a great deal (not everything) before the rebellion. but Jaimie was too naive to be part of Tywin's plans. even as adults, Tywin doesn't care to share his plans with his children. besides, in that time Jaimie had betrayed his father to join kingsgaurd. whatever scheme Tywin had , Jaimie had nothing to do with it. 

I mostly agree.

Jon Connigton's thoughts about Aerys is proof that the king was so mad that even his own son had realized that by the end. so, I wouldn't call Aerys the good king in any circumstance:) but since Yandal had already misinformed us about Elia's children's deaths,  I agree that some parts of his history on pre-rebellion court are exaggerations or even downright lies , regarding Aerys and Rhaegar's relationship in particular. we know there was bad blood between father and son at least after the way Aerys commented on Rhaegar's daughter. there probably had been some quarrels between them to make Rhaegar leave the court after his wedding , though not as bad as pre-Dance climate. but then in Harrenhal Rhaegar doesn't seem interested in winning the nobles' supports at all! and Aerys -who was suspicious of his son- trusts him to capture the mystery knight  he believes is no friend to him?! why didn't he keep the son he doesn't trust close to keep an eye on him?! and later on he decides to give that same son command of an army even though he was missing all this time and the whole war literally happened because of him? what happened did he denied the accusations in front of his dad? did Aerys know where the hell he was? granted, the army part could be because Aerys had threatened to hurt his wife and kids if he makes any mistakes but Aerys also took that son's counsel to heart to send for a man he had feared for years!

yet, these quotes give me pause:

is he speaking of Harrenhal? or something else? 

 

and here's Barristan's thoughts:

 

Yet the very hand that kept trying to suggest Rhaegar was trying to usurp him, was supposedly burned to death for bad council. So far all we know, Aerys got tired of his inferences to Rhaegar. The comment about Rhaegars kids from Aerys could just be lies from Pycelle the Council. Elio has already said that salacious comments by Maesters are questionable. Birth dates, reigns, etc are reliable, but not salacious rumors.

[EggBlue]

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yet the very hand that kept trying to suggest Rhaegar was trying to usurp him, was supposedly burned to death for bad council. So far all we know, Aerys got tired of his inferences to Rhaegar. The comment about Rhaegars kids from Aerys could just be lies from Pycelle the Council. Elio has already said that salacious comments by Maesters are questionable. Birth dates, reigns, etc are reliable, but not salacious rumors.

I have considered that but we know that Aerys didn't seem to care for the dornish (at least after the start of the rebellion) and he kept Elia and children -his own grandchildren-  as hostages before and after Rhaegar died through Jaimie's first hand memories which I believe . he even disinherited Rhaegar's children . it would have been a different matter if it was in favor of an adult prince Viserys but Viserys was a kid then, not much more influential than a baby Aegon.

[FictionIsntReal]

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Though the Master of Coin is who points out Rhaegar as a usurper, and so does Pycelle and Varys.

Where does Pycelle say those things? My recollection was that he was supposed to be neutral between Aerys & Rhaegar's factions.

Quote

Pycelle goes so far as to compare it to the moments before the Dance of the Dragons

He's talking about how the court was divided into factions.

Quote

Rhaegar is heir and has no other competition

The section in the TWoIaF discussing that divide explicitly brings up the idea of Aerys naming Viserys as his heir (which he eventually did after Rhaegar died, thus bypassing Rhaegar's children).

Quote

Despite Jamie "claiming" it was the Wildfyre and the order to kill his father. He wore his golden armor that day, not his white. Not suspect at all.

I'm taking a relatively anti-Jaime stance in another thread for some of the reasons you mention, but I don't see what the color of his armor has to do with it.

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Considering at least, that he wore his golden armor that day. Possibly knowing his father was coming.

Aerys had requested Tywin's help, and Tywin's arrival was known to the Small Council (resulting in Pycelle & Vary's differing advice). We don't know exactly when Jaime put on that armor, but we can expect he heard the news.

Quote

So I still suspect Jamie, and he is displaying a guilty conscience and may be hiding info and lying to himself to assuage his guilt.

What of his memories do you think are unreliable?

 

15 hours ago, EggBlue said:

since Yandal had already misinformed us about Elia's children's deaths,  I agree that some parts of his history on pre-rebellion court are exaggerations or even downright lies

Yandel relies on Pycelle's notes, and Pycelle is pro-Tywin. Yandel is also writing his book for Cersei's children and thus takes care to slant things in favor of the Lannisters (and to slight what Ned Stark & Stannis Baratheon did in the war).

I think we're supposed to chalk up Aerys' inconsistent behavior to him being mad.

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yet the very hand that kept trying to suggest Rhaegar was trying to usurp him, was supposedly burned to death for bad council.

Not for "bad council" generally but for trying to stop the wildfire plot.

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Where does Pycelle say those things? My recollection was that he was supposed to be neutral between Aerys & Rhaegar's factions.

He's talking about how the court was divided into factions.

The section in the TWoIaF discussing that divide explicitly brings up the idea of Aerys naming Viserys as his heir (which he eventually did after Rhaegar died, thus bypassing Rhaegar's children).

I'm taking a relatively anti-Jaime stance in another thread for some of the reasons you mention, but I don't see what the color of his armor has to do with it.

Aerys had requested Tywin's help, and Tywin's arrival was known to the Small Council (resulting in Pycelle & Vary's differing advice). We don't know exactly when Jaime put on that armor, but we can expect he heard the news.

What of his memories do you think are unreliable?

 

Yandel relies on Pycelle's notes, and Pycelle is pro-Tywin. Yandel is also writing his book for Cersei's children and thus takes care to slant things in favor of the Lannisters (and to slight what Ned Stark & Stannis Baratheon did in the war).

I think we're supposed to chalk up Aerys' inconsistent behavior to him being mad.

Not for "bad council" generally but for trying to stop the wildfire plot.

Ill get back to you on the rest cause Im busy atm but as far as Jamies armor, its important cause the gold armor is his Lannister armor. Not his K.G armor which is white. He does wear the cloak though which he thinks he shouldn't have.

It implies that Jamie was team Lannister that day and had intended to betray Aerys. Despite claiming it was the orders of Aerys that day to kill his father and to have his pyromancers burn down the city. 

I could be wrong of course, but I think him waking up and putting on his Lannister armor that day is a little telling. 

He's unreliable to me because he tells Brienne that Aerys feared Robert as the greatest threat since the Blackfyres, yet thinks to himself how Aerys actually feared his father more. 

Though you've certainly made a good case for Jamie else wise, these things still stand out to me.

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ill get back to you on the rest cause Im busy atm but as far as Jamies armor, its important cause the gold armor is his Lannister armor. Not his K.G armor which is white. He does wear the cloak though which he thinks he shouldn't have.

nice catch on the gold armor.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

It implies that Jamie was team Lannister that day and had intended to betray Aerys. Despite claiming it was the orders of Aerys that day to kill his father and to have his pyromancers burn down the city. 

for us ..yes. for Jaimie? no. his gold armor shows us how he wasn't a true kingsgaurd that day but the thing about kingsgaurd is that their main uniform is just their cloak . the armor is more of a formality and although they occasionally wear white armor , they can all have other armors. I don't think Jaimie woke up that day thinking "I'm going to kill the king!"

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

He's unreliable to me because he tells Brienne that Aerys feared Robert as the greatest threat since the Blackfyres, yet thinks to himself how Aerys actually feared his father more. 

 the fact that Aerys feared of what Tywin -who hadn't picked a side then- do (in the future)  doesn't contradict with him accepting Robert's rebellion as the greatest threat they had ever seen (in the past) . 

 

I think Tywin didn't see Jaimie worthy or useful enough to share any plans with him  Jaimie's kingslaying was probably just a happy convenience and a "I'm so proud and surprised" moment for Tywin !!  

[FictionIsntReal]

22 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

It implies that Jamie was team Lannister that day and had intended to betray Aerys.

He says that he asked permission for leave to make terms with his father's forces. Wearing the armor his father gave him would actually be a reasonable thing to do if he was expecting his father there, but again we don't know the timing of him donning his armor vs being informed.

Quote

Despite claiming it was the orders of Aerys that day to kill his father

That's not just in his claims, but also his memory.

Quote

and to have his pyromancers burn down the city.

I'm actually uncertain how much of the city was going to be burned. The standard story is everyone, but part of that seem inconsistent with the behavior of the pyromancers themselves. I created a thread about that here. I note there that Jaime seems to believe it's the whole city, and his memories are our main source, but other things he remembers don't fit, like the behavior of the alchemists involved don't seem quite so suicidal.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 12/29/2021 at 4:01 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

He says that he asked permission for leave to make terms with his father's forces. Wearing the armor his father gave him would actually be a reasonable thing to do if he was expecting his father there, but again we don't know the timing of him donning his armor vs being informed.

That's not just in his claims, but also his memory.

I'm actually uncertain how much of the city was going to be burned. The standard story is everyone, but part of that seem inconsistent with the behavior of the pyromancers themselves. I created a thread about that here. I note there that Jaime seems to believe it's the whole city, and his memories are our main source, but other things he remembers don't fit, like the behavior of the alchemists involved don't seem quite so suicidal.

Thats possible with the armor, but still questionable.

Either way, just adds to his questionable narration when he's thinking about how he wore his gold armor and how weird it is that no one ever seems to remember that, while also thinking that he only betrayed Aerys cause the orders against his father and the wildfyre. Hinging on the motives on why he wore the gold armor rather than his K.G armor. Suggesting his loyalties, heart, and identity were with House Lannister that day, and no to his King and Vows to the Throne.

Im very uncertain as to the extant the city was going to be burned. With only two possible locations being linked to Aerys. That of the Dragonpit, which Tyrion thinks is actually ok. Then the questionable one of under the Sept. Which makes no sense for Aerys as he had no known issues with the Faith. Only Olenna and her husband seem to have motive against them for the Targaryen incest marriage that blocked one of them a Targaryen marriage. 

No other pots are found or located around the city other than the pots Tyrion has placed all over the city. 

The thing is, the Two locations found were with in the last year. With in the time frame that Cersei, who is obsessed with Wildfyre, could have placed them in those two locations. As Aerys's were mostly all stored beneath the guild. Which they had largely secured the best they could. Which to your point and thread, suggest that they are not that suicidal. They even suggest the pots should have been found and destroyed.

They, were not the ones in on the plot though or the ones who had them made to begin with. All those Pyromancers are long dead, killed by Jamie. So the truth of Jamie's story, was secured by him when he killed them. So the current Pyromancers don't know for sure that they were for Aerys, and anything in a ledger book could've been forged.

Jamie, doesn't know for sure that Aerys had them do it either. He merely saw them coming and going a bunch and assumed the rest. So while some of his memories may be right, he may not have understood what was going on. He was young and not the most observant person. Least not compared to Tyrion and Tywin. He's the stupid Lannister. 

[FictionIsntReal]

On 1/2/2022 at 1:16 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Suggesting his loyalties, heart, and identity were with House Lannister that day, and no to his King and Vows to the Throne.

I don't think you're completely off base to notice that. Jaime himself talks about how the vows he swore conflict with each other. His loyalty to his king really did oppose his loyalty to his father that day, and many reduce his decision to JUST the wildfire plot rather than including the order to kill his father.

Quote

They, were not the ones in on the plot though or the ones who had them made to begin with. All those Pyromancers are long dead, killed by Jamie. So the truth of Jamie's story, was secured by him when he killed them. So the current Pyromancers don't know for sure that they were for Aerys, and anything in a ledger book could've been forged.

You don't produce a very large cache of wildfire with just the three ringleaders. Other pyromancers would have been making it, because that's their job, but they don't need to know any larger plots such wildfire is specifically supposed to be used for.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 1/3/2022 at 12:57 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't think you're completely off base to notice that. Jaime himself talks about how the vows he swore conflict with each other. His loyalty to his king really did oppose his loyalty to his father that day, and many reduce his decision to JUST the wildfire plot rather than including the order to kill his father.

You don't produce a very large cache of wildfire with just the three ringleaders. Other pyromancers would have been making it, because that's their job, but they don't need to know any larger plots such wildfire is specifically supposed to be used for.

I like your point about them not being suicidal. Still think its odd that supposedly Aerys put them all over the city, but so far, Tyrion is the only confirmed one to put them all over the city. I certainly will be keeping an eye on this to see if anything better reveals itself. Certainly a good debate

[FictionIsntReal]

On 1/5/2022 at 7:14 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Still think its odd that supposedly Aerys put them all over the city, but so far, Tyrion is the only confirmed one to put them all over the city.

I don't think any of the living characters know the exact details, perhaps so any future cache explosions can be a surprise.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 1/7/2022 at 3:21 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't think any of the living characters know the exact details, perhaps so any future cache explosions can be a surprise.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime II
The look Brienne gave him then was full of loathing. She would gladly hack me to pieces, but for her precious vow, he reflected. Good. I've had enough of feeble pieties and maidens' judgments. The wench stalked off without saying a word. Jaime curled up beneath his cloak, hoping to dream of Cersei.
But when he closed his eyes, it was Aerys Targaryen he saw, pacing alone in his throne room, picking at his scabbed and bleeding hands. The fool was always cutting himself on the blades and barbs of the Iron Throne. Jaime had slipped in through the king's door, clad in his golden armor, sword in hand. The golden armor, not the white, but no one ever remembers that. Would that I had taken off that damned cloak as well.

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jaime V

"He rode to save the realm," she insisted.

To save the realm. "Did you know that my brother set the Blackwater Rush afire? Wildfire will burn on water. Aerys would have bathed in it if he'd dared. The Targaryens were all mad for fire." Jaime felt light-headed. It is the heat in here, the poison in my blood, the last of my fever. I am not myself. He eased himself down until the water reached his chin. "Soiled my white cloak . . . I wore my gold armor that day, but . . ."

"Gold armor?" Her voice sounded far off, faint.

 

 

 
Im not sure that hes entering from the right direction if he killed Rosart out at a postern gate, but I don't have a map of the building. Most everyone seems to enter from the main room, with the kings room being located behind the throne off in a room. This is how its shown in the show at least, again, no map for us.

Great Hall

The Great Hall contains the throne room of the king. The Iron Throne sits on a raised iron dais with high and narrow steps. A long carpet stretches from the throne to the hall's great oak-and-bronze doors. The cavernous Great Hall can feast a thousand people.[20] The hall is oriented north to south, with high, narrow windows on the eastern and western walls. Skulls of the Targaryen dragons once adorned the walls, but King Robert I Baratheon had them moved to a cellar and replaced with hunting tapestries at the beginning of his reign.[22][23] Located behind the Iron Throne is the king's door, a private exit.[24][25]

The second-largest chamber in Westeros after Harrenhal, more than a thousand maidens and their family members and servants overcrowded the Great Hall during the Maiden's Day Ball.[26] Small council sessions are sometimes held in the throne room.[27]

Maegor's Holdfast

Maegor's Holdfast is a massive square fortress inside the heart of the Red Keep. The castle-within-a-castle is situated behind walls twelve feet thick and a dry moat lined with iron spikes. Maegor's Holdfast includes the royal apartments, and the king's bedchamber contains a canopied bed and twin hearths.[4] The holdfast also contains the Queen's Ballroom.[21]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e4/71/cb/e471cb9fd9e4e97b7963bda306da314f.jpg

This image shows shows the postern gates to be on the opposite side to where the Kings Door would be. Jamie would have to circle around to the back of the castle after killing Rossart near the front of the Castle

 

Ill let you decide on that. Either way.

[FictionIsntReal]

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This image shows shows the postern gates to be on the opposite side to where the Kings Door would be. Jamie would have to circle around to the back of the castle after killing Rossart near the front of the Castle

I think you might be expecting too much attention to detail from GRRM. For example, Tyrion meeting Catelyn at the Inn of the Crossroads makes no geographic sense when you consider the distance both are traveling across Westeros. Jaime entering through the king's door & killing Rossart shortly before that is from his memory. Where do you think he could have killed Rossart if not at a postern gate and why would he say something different?