The Shakespearean Tragedy of Daenerys Targaryen

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Ghost finds the dragon glass, Ghost saves Jon's ass and Ghost is also intimidating, boosting the people respect for Jon.

But it's not of the same magnitude as the dragons, is it?

Jon having Ghost by his side is not treated as some miraculous, almost divine thing like the dragons are. It does not cause people to think he is some prophesised savior. People don't treat him like a king just because he has Ghost. Ghost confers advantages but it's not on the same level.

[Oana_Mika]

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Without the dragons she could not have done this because she would not have the resources or be in the position to do so in the first place.

 

She could have found anything else to trick the masters and free the Unsullied

 

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

She needed the dragons to burn the Masters alive.

 

The Unsullied did the hard job, Drogon just burned Kraznis. They were not esential.

 

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Before the dragons her bloodriders, for example, have no interest in following her. It is only after the dragons hatch that they start.

 

Indeed, but she has credit for pulling out the impossible, so it's because she could do that that they follow her. The Starks just stumbled upon their direwolves and just got their super powers.

 

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The dragons did not force her to cross the red waste. She chose to because of the comet, I think.

 

She chose the Red Waste because it was the only way opened to her so you are right in this, the dragons did not force her to go there.

 

"The way the comet points is the way we must go," Dany insisted . . . though in truth, it was the only way open to her.

She dare not turn north onto the vast ocean of grass they called the Dothraki sea. The first khalasar they met would swallow up her ragged band, slaying the warriors and slaving the rest. The lands of the Lamb Men south of the river were likewise closed to them. They were too few to defend themselves even against that unwarlike folk, and the Lhazareen had small reason to love them. She might have struck downriver for the ports at Meereen and Yunkai and Astapor, but Rakharo warned her that Pono's khalasar had ridden that way, driving thousands of captives before them to sell in the flesh marts that festered like open sores on the shores of Slaver's Bay. - A Clas of Kings - Daenerys I

Edited September 29, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[Oana_Mika]

14 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But it's not of the same magnitude as the dragons, is it?

Jon having Ghost by his side is not treated as some miraculous, almost divine thing like the dragons are. It does not cause people to think he is some prophesised savior. People don't treat him like a king just because he has Ghost. Ghost confers advantages but it's not on the same level.

Like I said previously, Daenerys gets credit for doing the impossible. And she is prophesised as a saviour because the prophecy literally says that the saviour is the one who wakes dragons from stone, under the bleeding star, something she did so it's not like she is believed as such for no reason 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

She could have found anything else to trick the masters and free the Unsullied

5 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

The Unsullied did the hard job, Drogon just burned Kraznis. They were not esential.

I feel like the dragons were important because otherwise anyone who bought unsullied could pull exactly the same trick Daenerys did.

6 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Indeed, but she has credit for pulling out the impossible, so it's because she could do that that they follow her. The Starks just stumbled upon their direwolves and just got their super powers.

Daenerys kind of just stumbled onto the dragons though. She didn't know if they would hatch or not.

The point is that they started following her because of the dragons. The dragons are not related to her leadership ability.

[Oana_Mika]

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I feel like the dragons were important because otherwise anyone who bought unsullied could pull exactly the same trick Daenerys did.

But still, Martin would have had to get her go make that move one way or another, wouldn't he? Or do you think the dragons are the only important thing in this character? Could she have not achieved anything without them? I know they are more impressive than the direwolves and more powerful but again, she earned it.

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Daenerys kind of just stumbled onto the dragons though. She didn't know if they would hatch or not.

 

She was gifted with pretty stones and she had to piece out clues on how to wake them.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[Oana_Mika]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The point is that they started following her because of the dragons. The dragons are not related to her leadership ability.

They start following her because she did a miracle, briging an extincted specie back to life. It was because of what she did, not the dragons per se.

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Could she have not achieved anything without them? I know they are more impressive than the direwolves and more powerful but again, she earned it.

If Daenerys doesn't have the dragons then I don't see how she could do anything because Rakharo etc. would escort her back to the Dosh Khaleen and that would be that. Danerys is resourceful but she was in a tight spot and couldn't really have gotten out of it without the dragons.

5 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

She was gifted with pretty stones and she had to piece out clues on how to wake them.

I didn't get the sense that much clue-piecing-together was involved. Mirri Maz Durr tells her only death can pay for life, so she sacrifices her on a pyre and then the dragons are there. Not much of a puzzle really.

[Oana_Mika]

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

If Daenerys doesn't have the dragons then I don't see how she could do anything because Rakharo etc. would escort her back to the Dosh Khaleen and that would be that. Danerys is resourceful but she was in a tight spot and couldn't really have gotten out of it without the dragons.

Dude, why do you think Martin did not think from the start to give her dragons? How would he develop her story without them then, if she can't get anything without them?

 

Oh and I forgot to add that Ghost does not get Jon the king's treatment because he is not an extincted specie like the dragons and Jon is a bastard, not a prince/king.

 

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I didn't get the sense that much clue-piecing-together was involved. Mirri Maz Durr tells her only death can pay for life, so she sacrifices her on a pyre and then the dragons are there. Not much of a puzzle really.

She has dragon dreams and the instinct that heat helps them hatch (she puts them on the brazer) and she also pieced Mirri's words to this 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Dude, why do you think Martin did not think from the start to give her dragons? How would he develop her story without them then, if she can't get anything without them?

If the story goes as written up until Daenerys gets the dragons but she doesn't get the dragons then no, I cannot see how she would be able to follow the storyline she did with the dragons. It would be a different story.

6 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Oh and I forgot to add that Ghost does not get Jon the king's treatment because he is not an extincted specie like the dragons and Jon is a bastard, not a prince/king.

Well that just makes me think that Jon is an even better leader than Daenerys than I previously thought. Not only does he lack the aid of dragons but he also lacks the position of being royalty and has to deal with the stigma of being a bastard.

7 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

She has dragon dreams and the instinct that heat helps them hatch (she puts them on the brazer) and she also pieced Mirri's words to this 

Mirri's words were not hard to figure out. And she also has an example to follow. Hardly expert detective work.

[Oana_Mika]

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It would be a different story.

I don't think it would have been that different since the character goes more or less as he originally intended.

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Not only does he lack the aid of dragons but he also lacks the position of being royalty and has to deal with the stigma of being a bastard.

Indeed, he lacks dragons and the royal title but he also got help from Sam to get in the position of being LC. In fact, his entire campaign was planned by Sam. Also, Daenerys' titles did not help her to conquer Astapor, Yunkai, Meereen and to rule. And as much as you pin her freeing the unsullied (and you tie to this her other victories that she got without using her dragons) on her dragons instead on her wits, they did not help her ruling either.

Oh and Daenerys too has to deal with a stigma : being the Mad King's daughter 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[SeanF]

54 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

If Daenerys did not hatch the dragons, she would most likely not be in any of these situations in the first place because she would be dead or with the Dosh Khaleen.

If Daenerys did not have the dragons she could not have freed the slaves though. Unless you are saying that she develops pyrokinesis as soon as the dragons are not there. I think the pyrokinesis would have been interesting.

But I wasn't saying she was only relying on her dragons. I was saying they were a big part of why people followed her in the first place. If the dragons were gone I can't see nearly as many people following her.

With or without the dragons she was probably going to have to cross the desert. Unless she wanted to be dragged back to the Dosh Khaleen, she had to leave the Dothraki Sea.

That's true but she wouldn't have even been leading those people in the first place without the dragons.

At the Doylist level, if it wasn’t dragons, it would have been something else.  

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

At the Doylist level, if it wasn’t dragons, it would have been something else.

I think the pyrokinesis thing would've been cool.

[Oana_Mika]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think the pyrokinesis thing would've been cool.

Me too, but I also love dragons so eitherway I'm served 

[Craving Peaches]

15 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Oh and Daenerys too has to deal with a stigma : being the Mad King's daughter 

Not as much as Jon has to deal with being a bastard. So far Daenerys herself and Barristan are the only people who care. When she gets to Westeros more people might care but barely anyone in Meereen cares.

17 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

And as much as you pin her freeing the unsullied (and you tie to this her other victories that she got without using her dragons) on her dragons instead on her wits

I'm not saying she didn't use her wits I just don't think she could've freed them without the dragons.

18 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

they did not help her ruling either.

They are the reason she was ruling anything in the first place.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Oana_Mika said:

Me too, but I also love dragons so eitherway I'm served 

I want more elements. Not just ice and fire. Water, air, lightning, green. All must be represented.

[Oana_Mika]

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Not as much as Jon has to deal with being a bastard. So far Daenerys herself and Barristan are the only people who care. When she gets to Westeros more people might care but barely anyone in Meereen cares.

Mace Tyrell already says she is mad like her father, Quentyn is afraid to meet her because of what the slavers say about her and one of his companions equates her with her father because "it runs in the blood"

 "Her khal killed her brother to make her queen. Then she killed her khal to make herself khaleesi. She practices blood sacrifice, lies as easily as she breathes, turns against her own on a whim. She's broken truces, tortured envoys … her father was mad too. It runs in the blood." - A Dance with Dragons - The Windblown

 

"We have these tales coming from the east as well. A second Targaryen, and one whose blood no man can question. Daenerys Stormborn."

"As mad as her father," declared Lord Mace Tyrell. - A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

 

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm not saying she didn't use her wits I just don't think she could've freed them without the dragons.

But you downplay her inteligence by saying things like this

 

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

They are the reason she was ruling anything in the first place.

No, her wits are the reason she got there because it was her wits that kept the dragons alive in the first place.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Oana_Mika said:

Bit you downplay her inteligence by saying things like this

I don't see it as downplaying her intelligence. Think of it like this - a master craftsman cannot create anything without the right tools. If he lacks the tools, he won't be able to make something but that doesn't mean he's not a master craftsman. Similarly, Daenerys would have the intelligence but just lack the dragons to make the plan work.

The reason I think the dragons were required is because I find it quite unlikely that no one else ever tried what Daenerys did, buy the unsullied then free them and kill the masters. I assume those attemps were unsuccessful because they lacked dragons. The dragons were so rare and unique as to throw the masters off their guard or something, and Daenerys was able to exploit that.

6 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Mace Tyrell already says she is mad like her father, Quentyn is afraid to meet her because of what the slavers say about her and one of his companions equates her with her father because "it runs in the blood"

 "Her khal killed her brother to make her queen. Then she killed her khal to make herself khaleesi. She practices blood sacrifice, lies as easily as she breathes, turns against her own on a whim. She's broken truces, tortured envoys … her father was mad too. It runs in the blood." - A Dance with Dragons - The Windblown

 

"We have these tales coming from the east as well. A second Targaryen, and one whose blood no man can question. Daenerys Stormborn."

"As mad as her father," declared Lord Mace Tyrell. - A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

I forgot about all the warped rumours surrounding her. But I still think Jon has had it worse so far, as Daenerys hasn't actually experienced dealing with people who believe all those negative things about her, while Jon has.

7 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

No, her wits are the reason she got there because it was her wits that kept the dragons alive in the first place.

Her wits kept them alive but I don't think she would be ruling anything without the dragons in the first place. Because without the dragons Daenerys would probably be taken back to the Dosh Khaleen by Aggo etc.

[Oana_Mika]

@Craving Peaches we seem to keep dancing around since you keep saying that Daenerys got her position thanks to her dragons. I don't deny they helped in a few moments (just like the direwolves helped to survive the Starks; I mean, Ghost is used as a vessel for Jon's soul) but that does not take away her agency and her planning so we might just leave it here.

[Craving Peaches]

7 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

we seem to keep dancing around since you keep saying that Daenerys got her position thanks to her dragons. I don't deny they helped in a few moments (just like the direwolves helped to survive the Starks; I mean, Ghost is used as a vessel for Jon's soul) but that does not take away her agency and her planning so we might just leave it here.

That's fine. I don't think the dragons took away her agency and planning, just that they were a massive help that Jon didn't have.

[Hugorfonics]

Theyre fun to compare to as theres lots of similarities. So yes Dany, through the politics of her ancestry, hatched the dragons, and although its ambiguous how she knows its clear Dany knew what she was getting into when she gave birth. Jon did not give birth, but he did find Ghost, all of them really but somehow more specifically Ghost, frankly in the face of his ancestry. (white like snow) Immediately theyre playing by different rules, Dany doesnt even mention the old folks home anymore and is free to not retire at 15 and Jons life along with his LC is saved by Ghost. Its almost the same story.

Not much happens in acok except for Ghost saving Jons life again by pretty much killing Halfhand, with Jon getting a few stick em with pointy ends in there, and in asos Mance is talking about his Stark face and reminiscing on all those three good times they had together.  After Jon gets tired of the good times, Summer not Ghost, shoots lightning out of his paws or something and Jon retakes command of his life where he soon wins an impressive battle and eventually takes command of his new kingdom.

Like I said not much happens in acok, Danys looking for baby formula for like half of it, and like Jon trekking north shes back on a boat riding somebody elses destiny, until Jorah asks why. Dany has little answer for this and trojan horses the fuck out of some fellas begging for it. Targaryen naturally likes the vibe of conquest and after two other impressive battles the first done to her shrewdness the second to the valor of Jorah among others, and like Jon hearing his name shouted by a crow Dany takes her kingdom. Again, very similar. The pet and the ancestry still play a part and the story is pretty impressive. Jon famously receives help from Summer at a key part but Dany has a whole retinue of wise and strong advisors, notably the first. 

So if she owes much, not everything but clearly not nothing, to her advisors and pet then we must be coming to adwd where she interestingly throws all of it away (she throws Jorah away earlier i know, but its practically dance) Jon, whats she doing? Literally locking up her guardian and expelling her supporters... Jon? Right off the bad shits looking ominous. Not to mention their subjects inherently despise them, battles have been won but the war is not over and theres a straight up humanitarian crisis of mass starvation and disease ripping through the fledging kingdom. Well, through sublime governance the populace did not starve nor all drop dead of disease, the war against all repeated odds reached huge overtures of peace thought impossible (the war is still looking likely, but its a fraction of what it was. Danys is a bit stronger then Jons but her uneasy alliance with Aspator though improperly administrated did not create the absolute worst results) I mean they really checked every box, well, except for their subjects despising them. Dany tried to address it but eventually, after a knee jerk reaction, said fuck it and peaced. Jon truly turned a blind eye, despite Mels nagging, to his subjects, i mean brothers, hatred. If only they didnt start their reign by exiling their friends and caging their greatest mythical asset. But, thems the breaks. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Hugorfonics