The Dragon, North Star, Northern Dawn, and musing on Jon and Dany.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, Darth Sidious said:

Mance Rayder is the parallel to Rhaegar Targaryen. Rhaegar is Fire-Lite and Mance is Ice-Lite.  Mance got his wish. King Beyond the Wall and fathered a son on Lyanna. Rhaegar failed. He never became king and there is a small possibility that Aegon and Rhaenys were fathered by another man. There may be more going on between JC and Rhaegar. Mance sized up Rhaegar at Harrenhal and did the same to Robert at Winterfell.  I have long proposed that Jon is the son of Mance.  I also think Aerys fathered a child with Ashara.  An illegitimate child who might inherit Dawn. Maybe this is Aegon. His age cannot be precisely determined but surely older than Dany. Lemore is Ashara. She cannot reveal her real name. Eddard Stark knew the truth. 
 

I def think there are parallels between Rhaegar and Mance.

I also think Rhaegar was planning to use Ashara to have his 3rd kid with. 

Jon Conn and Rhaegar is something I suspect, it reminds me of Laenor Velaryon.

The actual sword Dawn I would love to see take the stage, and the "Sword" not being just Dany's dragons would be nice.

[Craving Peaches]

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

No, I think you're stretching stuff to make it fit that she is special.

Who am I wanting to think is special? Daenerys? I am ambivalent towards Daenerys. And even if I did want her to be 'special', no stretching is required, just what is literally in the text is enough.

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im not sure what would diminish there blood in your definition but i get the sense nothing would, cause itd counter your theory.

What theory? That Daenerys' parents are exactly those who are stated to be her parents in the book? Hardly a theory. I think it's silly to claim Rhaegar's blood is 'diminished' just because it's only a portion of Aegon's blood.

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I sent you all the links on the Dornish Marches with quotes from the page even, so think what you want

None of the content there proves or even implies that Robert is somehow a Dornishman for the purposes of Mance's song. The marches are not part of Dorne. The people in the marches are not Dornish. Robert is not a marcher lord but lord of Storm's End.

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Lol I mean, if the math doesn't convince you, nothing probably will. You can't have that many marriages outside of incest and expect no new Dna to dilute your DNA. Sorry

The maths does convince me. It convinces me that Rhaegar's blood isn't diminished. Unless it is diminished because he only shares whatever portion of Aegon's DNA. Then it would be. But that is silly reason to call his blood 'diminished'. It implies it is somehow lesser, just because he wasn't more inbred.

[AlaskanSandman]

28 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Who am I wanting to think is special? Daenerys? I am ambivalent towards Daenerys. And even if I did want her to be 'special', no stretching is required, just what is literally in the text is enough.

What theory? That Daenerys' parents are exactly those who are stated to be her parents in the book? Hardly a theory. I think it's silly to claim Rhaegar's blood is 'diminished' just because it's only a portion of Aegon's blood.

None of the content there proves or even implies that Robert is somehow a Dornishman for the purposes of Mance's song. The marches are not part of Dorne. The people in the marches are not Dornish. Robert is not a marcher lord but lord of Storm's End.

The maths does convince me. It convinces me that Rhaegar's blood isn't diminished. Unless it is diminished because he only shares whatever portion of Aegon's DNA. Then it would be. But that is silly reason to call his blood 'diminished'. It implies it is somehow lesser, just because he wasn't more inbred.

That is indeed the point.

Suppose two skin changers by chance mated while inside their dragons. That, hypothetically speaking, this is where the "Dragon" gene came from that ties them so closely to the dragons, more so than say, Varamyr sixskins.

These two go on to have two children, a male and a female and that these two have a closeness to the dragons that allow them to now somewhat control them, with out having to skinchange into them. They then wanted to pass this down through their family, they would have to thus, inbreed. For every outside marriage they took in, it would diminish their blood in the sense that they no longer have that connection to the dragons.

And yes, those are your theories, whether its what the book says or not. The books say a lot of stuff that isn't true to mislead people, so we all have our theories. This is yours and mine and how ours differ. Its ok to disagree with me even if you get what im trying to say.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Its ok to disagree with me even if you get what im trying to say.

No, I understand what you mean now, it's just that the phrasing 'diminished' could be taken the wrong way I think, because to me at least, it implies that Rhaegar somehow has 'lesser' blood.

2 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And yes, those are your theories, whether its what the book says or not. The books say a lot of stuff that isn't true to mislead people, so we all have our theories.

Usually it will be quite obvious if the books intend to mislead. I take things at face value as they are in the book unless I believe there is a good reason to do so otherwise.

[AlaskanSandman]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

No, I understand what you mean now, it's just that the phrasing 'diminished' could be taken the wrong way I think, because to me at least, it implies that Rhaegar somehow has 'lesser' blood.

Usually it will be quite obvious if the books intend to mislead. I take things at face value as they are in the book unless I believe there is a good reason to do so otherwise.

I understand that many approach the book in the same way and I get it. I didn't used to question so much about what George writes until I started looking deeper. Specially at history it self and found many of his inspirations. Such as the Hen Ogledd, where Hadrians wall cut through. Hadrians wall built by who the Norse called the people of Valir from Valland, ruled by Kjarr (caesar). The Welsh controlled it and the Welsh Red Dragon, faced the White dragons of the Anglo Saxons. English legend states that the Welsh weren't the "First men" though and that Albina the Greek Princess came first and named the Island Albion. Then came Brutus, descendant of Aeneas who founded Britain. Aeneas founded Rome through his descendants Romulus and Remus. There is a lot that George seems to have drawn upon, not to mention his clever word play at times. 

And yea I figured I wasn't explaining my self properly and needed to try another way, apologies

[AlaskanSandman]

The Only thing about Baels story I find weird or somewhat hard to line up is the death of the Lady Stark.

So.

1. Bael, the future king beyond the wall steals a stark and leaves a Winter Rose.

 Mance steals Lyanna and leaves a winter rose that upsets Brandon.

2. Bael and her have a child in the Crypts of Winterfell.

    Mance is searching for the Crypts, and Jon dreams of the Crypts. The Lower chamber of Starks, before the time of Bael. Telling Jon that he doesn't belong there. He is the blood of Bael and Mance.

3. 30 years later, the Stark maids son with Bael, fights Bael at the Wall and kills Bael.

     15 years later Jon faces Mance at the wall and kills him for all the world to see (Really Rattleshirt but the world thinks Mance is dead)

4. This one is the slightly weird one.

     The Stark maid jumps from a Tower to her death.

       Hmmm. Lyanna is said to have died in a tower, but in a bed of blood (Told to us in a fever dream of Neds). Then there is Ashara Dayne, who jumps from the Tower called the Palestone Sword. Possibly over the loss of the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal, or the loss of her child. (As told by Barristan, who is not the most aware person in life)

      The Crypts are not a tower, but this is only where Jon was possibly born. If he was in the North, would the Tower then be Queen's Crown? Where both Jon and Bran's plots cross paths? Or, the Tower that Bran fell from? 

 Either way, the death of Ashara and Lyanna are questionable to many.

5.  The Death of the Stark son to a Bolton.

     Jon is killed due to the Pink Letter sent by Ramsey Bolton.

 

I think this kind of story telling and plot reveal is used else where in the book with Brienne, Dunk the Lunk, and Jamie Lannister in that Brienne's plot is hinted at by her association to these two Kings Guards. Namely that they are both king slayers (Dunk is responsible for death of Aegon V imo for trying to sacrifice Rhaegar to hatch dragons), while Jamie killed Aerys to save K.L. 

Brienne will soil her cloak to kill Dany. Brienne of Tarth where rule the Evenstar of Evenfall. "Star-Fall". There is heavy hinting at her ties to Daenerys the Dayne-Heiress.

[Craving Peaches]

29 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And yea I figured I wasn't explaining my self properly and needed to try another way, apologies

It's fine.

I agree there is some fascinating history, but I think that it can be difficult to know where the parallels end. Are they intentional or not? There's so many parallels and angles to explore. For example, on another thread, someone pointed out that White Harbour lines up with Edinburgh. There's so many things you could speculate on based on this parallel. But they can't all happen. They might not happen at all. Where is the line drawn?

There's good stuff, but the issue is when one really wants a certain parallel to be true, even if it's unlikely, and so rather than the facts being pieced together to create a theory, the theory is made first and then facts are chosen very selectively or misrepresented to give more weight to the theory. I am not saying you have done this, just pointing out that I have seen this sort of thing with other theories.

I like the parallels and symbolism with your theory, and you've obviously put a lot of time and effort into exploring them, but I personally can't see the logistics and timing working out. My main issue with the Jon part, was that if Mance was Jon's real father, why were the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy? They wouldn't be there just to defend Lyanna's bastard child with an ex-wildling member of the Watch.

[AlaskanSandman]

25 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

My main issue with the Jon part, was that if Mance was Jon's real father, why were the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy? They wouldn't be there just to defend Lyanna's bastard child with an ex-wildling member of the Watch.

Well this admittedly relies on the fact that Lyanna wasn't likely at the Tower of Joy, Ashara Dayne was and it was Ashara Dayne who made him swear to protect Daenerys, the Dayne-Heiress. The broken promise Ned thinks about in the cells after Robert is dead, and the assassination attempt on Dany can't be stopped as told to him by Varys before his arrest. Jon is safe at the Wall, the only threat to him (Robert) is dead. There is no way the broken promise can refer to Jon, it has to be Dany, imo.

 

Lyanna went north with Mance to Winterfell where they hid in the crypts under the nose of Benjen, who got banished to the wall for his failure.

The accusation that Rhaegar took Lyanna was likely a lie spread by the same people claiming Rhaegar was going to usurp his father. Tywin and Olenna.

 

Edit- Arthur Dayne was at Starfall to protect his sister, not Lyanna.

 

Willem Dary, is not who Daenerys thinks he is, he is William Dustin. Who if really dead, could've been brought back to Lady Dustin on his horse, cause you know, that's what horses are good at, carrying things.

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well this admittedly relies on the fact that Lyanna wasn't likely at the Tower of Joy, Ashara Dayne was and it was Ashara Dayne who made him swear to protect Daenerys, the Dayne-Heiress. The broken promise Ned thinks about in the cells after Robert is dead, and the assassination attempt on Dany can't be stopped as told to him by Varys before his arrest. Jon is safe at the Wall, the only threat to him (Robert) is dead. There is no way the broken promise can refer to Jon, it has to be Dany, imo.

 

Lyanna went north with Mance to Winterfell where they hid in the crypts under the nose of Benjen, who got banished to the wall for his failure.

The accusation that Rhaegar took Lyanna was likely a lie spread by the same people claiming Rhaegar was going to usurp his father. Tywin and Olenna.

 

Edit- Arthur Dayne was at Starfall to protect his sister, not Lyanna.

The thing is we only have Ned's account, and he remembers his sister being there. Ned wasn't feeling well at the time, and obviously he was having a fever dream, but that doesn't mean the core content wouldn't be the same. And his is the only account of the events we have.

Ashara would explain why Arthur was there, but what about the other Kingsguard knights? Why wouldn't they be with Viserys?

I'm not sure if the Rhaegar taking Lyanna could just be a lie spread by Tywin and Olenna. More than those two confirm the story. If Rhaegar hadn't taken her it would have been easy to prove. Tywin benefits from having the Targaryens gone, but do the Tyrells really benefit? The Targaryens made them rulers of Highgarden in the first place. They'd be more insecure in their rulership without the Targaryens there.

If the promise was to protect Daenerys, I feel like Ned's thoughts would have revealed it to us more explicitly.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The thing is we only have Ned's account, and he remembers his sister being there. Ned wasn't feeling well at the time, and obviously he was having a fever dream, but that doesn't mean the core content wouldn't be the same. And his is the only account of the events we have.

Ashara would explain why Arthur was there, but what about the other Kingsguard knights? Why wouldn't they be with Viserys?

I'm not sure if the Rhaegar taking Lyanna could just be a lie spread by Tywin and Olenna. More than those two confirm the story. If Rhaegar hadn't taken her it would have been easy to prove. Tywin benefits from having the Targaryens gone, but do the Tyrells really benefit? The Targaryens made them rulers of Highgarden in the first place. They'd be more insecure in their rulership without the Targaryens there.

If the promise was to protect Daenerys, I feel like Ned's thoughts would have revealed it to us more explicitly.

Why would it be revealed more explicitly? Thats the secret.

 

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.

 

 

 

Ned is mixing the two in his head, cause he is supposed to be looking for Lyanna, but instead has stumbled upon Ashara Dayne. Mean while, his sister is in the North where he later finds her after rushing home before Caitlyn.

 

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"She was more beautiful than that," the king said after a silence. His eyes lingered on Lyanna's face, as if he could will her back to life. Finally he rose, made awkward by his weight. "Ah, damn it, Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?" His voice was hoarse with remembered grief. "She deserved more than darkness …"

"She was a Stark of Winterfell," Ned said quietly. "This is her place."

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

 

 

They found him? They who? The midwives?

There is nothing about this section to suggest it was at the Tower of Joy. People make that association by the first passage I posted. 

 

 

If Lyanna was really in the Tower of Joy, why would they need to protect her from her brother? Especially when she is supposedly calling for him? If she married Rhaegar as everyone suggest, then, as princess, she has the authority to stop the K.G. and allow Eddard into the Tower. It makes no sense.

[Loose Bolt]

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

If Lyanna was really in the Tower of Joy, why would they need to protect her from her brother? Especially when she is supposedly calling for him? If she married Rhaegar as everyone suggest, then, as princess, she has the authority to stop the K.G. and allow Eddard into the Tower. It makes no sense.

I assume that those 3 KG thought that Lyanna's son was their king. Or those knights wanted to stop known ally/friend of usurper reaching their king and making his claim to funny hat and unconfy chair void.

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

I assume that those 3 KG thought that Lyanna's son was their king. Or those knights wanted to stop known ally/friend of usurper reaching their king and making his claim to funny hat and unconfy chair void.

They know Rhaegar is dead and that his wife, the Princess, now Queen, wants to see her brother.

Im pretty sure in that moment, if Lyanna was there and carrying Rhaegars kid as his wife. Then she is Queen and has sole authority to command those Knights.

She is a Stark, and Queen. Thats check mate for team Stark, period.

They are acting out of line in this instance if that is the case.

 

Or does succession work differently? Until that kid is born and comes of age, she is acting Queen

[AlaskanSandman]

@Ran I need a ruling if you could offer your opinion.

With Aerys, Rhaella, Aegon, and Rhaenys dead, does this not make Lady Stark/Targaryen acting Queen if indeed she is hypothetically married. Totally hypothetical as any marriage hasn't been revealed of course, but on that premise, and assuming the K.G knows they wed, and that any future kid is legitimate. On these grounds, isn't Lyanna acting Queen with authority to stop the K.G and admit Eddard.

[AlaskanSandman]

Aurora borealis - The lights are named after Aurora, the Roman goddess of the dawn. The word borealis means “northern.”

 

So another Jon clue surrounding the North, Dragons, and Dawn (Clue to Ashara? Daynes, Dawn. You be the judge)

Mix the Dragon Constellation by the North Star Polaris, with the Northern Lights name Aurora Borealis being "Northern Dawn", and you get some pretty strong suggestions for Jon. Be they Dayne blood ties, and the sword Dawn, to Northern Ice Dragons (Maybe? Fighting Dany's Fire Dragons? That'd be awesome. Euron, Aegon, and Daenerys? )

[AlaskanSandman]

Borealis gets its name partially from Borea, found in Hyper-Borea "Beyond North" where the mythic people said to live for 1000 years were and where Apollo's Garden was located where he had chased Daphne into the Forest where she became a Laurel evergreen Tree.

Seem's a relatable myth. Given the bride theft theme in asoiaf

 

[AlaskanSandman]

Maybe Hardhome really was the Valyrians, and that's where Bael (Notice Valyrian spelling with the Ae found in Aegon) comes from. Whose name means "Pyre" in Old English. Giving Mance and Ygritte "Kissed by Fire" the Valyrian blood needed for him to be a Northern Ice Dragon through Mance Rayder? Or one could theorize Rhaegar.

[AlaskanSandman]

Another weird connection in House Dayne is Arthur Dayne. Whose first name is the Welsh Arthur, which means "Bear" from Arth-                     

Firstly giving a King Arthur and his Excalibur imagery.

Secondly, it ties Bear Island, and House Mormont. With Jeor Mormont giving Jon Longclaw. Which some have theorized to be a special sword.

House Mormont is tied to bride/maiden theft, as Tormund stole the She Bear and had kids with her, one being name Lyanna Mormont. The lady bear.

 

With Daenerys name being a homophone for Dayne-Heiress and looking like Ashara with some strange lady speaking to her through the stars. Lemon trees and a Red Door. With a Willem Darry having a name strangely like William Dustin whose body was never returned home with his horse from the Tower of Joy. With Baristan hinting that Ashara had a stillborn child.

 

Some very interesting clues tying both Jon and Dany to House Dayne.

 

King Arthurs father was Uther Pendragon "Head Dragon"

 

[AlaskanSandman]

Its interesting that Tormund has kids south of the Wall that are in charge, and Mance has a possible child in Jon at the Wall. How many people of the North come from wildlings beyond the wall? Perfect that they're grown enough when they decided to attack the Wall and come south. Almost like it was all planned 

[AlaskanSandman]

Aurora Borealis- Northern Dawn

Dragon Constellation by North Star-Sirius. 

Hard home torched

Valyria were slavers then and Dragonstone taken shortly after.

Arya reports Hard home currently hit by slavers.

Targaryens don't practice slavery.

Bael means "Pyre" in Old English. Bael spelt same as Aegon in Valyrian fashion, with Ae.

Bael's legend mentions the Kings Road, and "Lord" Stark.

Ygritte, "Kissed by Fire". 

Mance is duplicating many of Bael's deeds.

Tormund has kid with Maege Mormont named Lyanna (Stark) and Alysane (Alysanne Targaryen?)

Jeor gives Long Claw to Jon Snow and trains him to lead to hopefully be L.C. one day. 

Alysanne ended Lords Right on marriage night. 

Queen's Crown in her honor

Crowning is a birthing term

"The Seed is Strong"

Stark means "Strong" in German

Stepstones tied to Pirates and slavers where Aegon the Conqueror took interest. Near lands of House Martell and Lemontree. 

House Dayne is in Dorne too. At Starfall, where the Sword of the Morning wields Dawn. Last sword of the Morning named Arthur (Welsh for Bear from Arth-) 

King Arthurs father was Uther Pendragon "Head Dragon"

Daenerys homophone for Dayne-Heiress

Gerold Dayne "Dark Star" is of the Night. The Evening Star- Vesper

House Tarth - The Even Star (Evening Star) of Even Fall (Star + Fall = Starfall)

Duncan the Tall tied to Summerhall and death of Aegon V

Brienne of Tarth related to Dunk the Tall.

Brienne of Tarth hangs out with the King Slayer, Jamie Lannister. 

Brienne is wielding Ice, now re-forged and renamed to "Oath Keeper".

 

This is a collection of clues I think are very interesting. Make of them what you will. I think Brienne will kill Dany with Ice/Oath Keeper as foreshadowed by Jamie and Duncan the Tall, who I think Killed Aegon V to stop him. Gerold Dayne is somehow connected to house Tarth and the Evening Star

 

 

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Gerold Dayne is somehow connected to house Tarth and the Evening Star

This is not going to come true, and there's not really any evidence for it, but what if Gerold Dayne is actually Arthur Dayne? If Gerold is linked to the evening star, as a 'dark' Dayne associated with the night, Ser Arthur would be associated with the Morning Star. But the Morning Star and the Evening Star are the same thing - the planet Venus.