Heresy 245 The Alpha and the Omega and what lies between

[Black Crow]

I'd be tempted to say, curiously quiet, with nothing since that mention months ago of a seeing his UK publishers during a visit to London

Current Blog entry is about casting for Dunk and Egg

However...

Previous entry, posted by the Minions of Fevre River, concerns a colouring book and starts with this curious line:

Long before the Wall fell, the Targaryens reigned with fire and blood.

"Long before the Wall fell" !!!

Is this an inadvertent slip by his minions ?

Edited April 10 by Black Crow
addition

[Melifeather]

Yeah, that does seem to be an accidental slip, however I guess it depends upon the definition of "fall". Technically the Wall did fall as soon as LC Jon Snow allowed the wildlings through the tunnels. Yes, there are still things beyond the Wall like the wight army that are (for now) still being contained, but with wildlings on the south side now, I would not be surprised if Winds begins with wights on the south side as well.

I also still like an old theory of LynnS where she posited that the Wall is blowing away, that originally the Wall drew the cold unto itself accumulating ice and snow through the ages, but that the blizzard that is now emanating - seemingly through Winterfell - is evidence that the reverse is happening. It is expelling itself in the form of a blizzard and blowing away - which would be a fulfillment of this Mirri Maz prophecy:

Quote

 

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

 

When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east is a reversal of time.

When the seas go dry could mean the Narrow Sea and other large bodies of water freezing over and allowing people to walk across.

"Mountains" blow in the wind like leaves could be explained as the Wall disintegrating and blowing away.

[Black Crow]

32 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Yeah, that does seem to be an accidental slip, however I guess it depends upon the definition of "fall". Technically the Wall did fall as soon as LC Jon Snow allowed the wildlings through the tunnels. Yes, there are still things beyond the Wall like the wight army that are (for now) still being contained, but with wildlings on the south side now, I would not be surprised if Winds begins with wights on the south side as well.

I also still like an old theory of LynnS where she posited that the Wall is blowing away, that originally the Wall drew the cold unto itself accumulating ice and snow through the ages, but that the blizzard that is now emanating - seemingly through Winterfell - is evidence that the reverse is happening. It is expelling itself in the form of a blizzard and blowing away - which would be a fulfillment of this Mirri Maz prophecy:

When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east is a reversal of time.

When the seas go dry could mean the Narrow Sea and other large bodies of water freezing over and allowing people to walk across.

"Mountains" blow in the wind like leaves could be explained as the Wall disintegrating and blowing away.

The "technicalities" are obviously open to interpretation, whether its blowing away, whether it may be said to have fallen because Jon let some of the Wildings through - escaping the real threat - or whether it literally comes down with a bump, but somehow I think that the slip is suggesting the latter option

[Melifeather]

We've got a formerly respected tv news journalist (now ridiculed conspiracy theorist) over here in Minnesota that made a "documentary" (and I mean that generously) about the "fall" of Minneapolis when people rioted after George Floyd was killed by police. 1300 businesses were damaged with about 100 being severely or completely destroyed including three post offices. I'm not trying to downplay the damage nor do I agree with the rioters, but when a city "falls" then I would expect that the attackers would then gain control over the city which didn't happen. In many people's minds they (still) believe Minneapolis "fell" and that it is now a dangerous place largely left in ruins and run by gangs which would be news to the thousands of people who actually live and work there. Granted, the people that believe this are from rural areas of the state and avoid downtown, preferring to stick to the suburbs to get their Scheels and Fleet Farm shopping done. I'm only using this as an example of how something can be described as "fallen" when it obviously remains intact.

[LynnS]

Yes, GRRM doesn't really say what he has been doing per se.  He's seems more newsy these days.

Wow, Feather... you remember things I said, that I barely remember. 

I think the basic idea was the Wall acted like a dam restricting and containing the flow of cold magic (known as winter), during the summer and releasing it in the winter.  Winters and summers seem to be managed magically.  Perhaps the seasons are being dreamed by greenseers aka giants in the earth.

The Wall also has the function of keeping the servants of the cold from passing.  I think this is something separate from the seasons.  The Wall may also be a source or reservoir of magic as Melisandre tells Jon.  Apparently, he and presumably, she can use it.  If true, that implies that others or Others can use it for their purposes.

I would guess that the Horn of Winter is tied to or uses the magic of the Wall in some way.  We know it was blown once before and the Wall and wards still stand.  So the idea that the Wall has fallen is open to interpretation.

[Black Crow]

As I said, its wide open to question whether the fall was metaphorical or exaggerated, but that introduction very clearly suggests that a significant and widely known event occurs - which hasn't so far happened in the published story.

[LynnS]

I'd like to bring up this concept of dreaming or the dreamtime relating to Maori legends.  Here's some blurbs from wikipedia.  Does any of this sound familiar?

Quote

Some of the ancestor or spirit beings inhabiting the Dreamtime become one with parts of the landscape, such as rocks or trees.^[2

Isn't this what Leaf says to Bran about the CotF -that they go into the earth, the stones and the trees.  Varamyr experiences this on his true death before he starts his second life.

Quote

"Dreaming" is now also used as a term for a system of totemic symbols, so that an Aboriginal person may "own" a specific Dreaming, such as Kangaroo Dreaming, Shark Dreaming, Honey Ant Dreaming, Badger Dreaming, or any combination of Dreamings pertinent to their country. This is because in the Dreaming an individual's entire ancestry exists as one, culminating in the idea that all worldly knowledge is accumulated through one's ancestors. Many Aboriginal Australians also refer to the world-creation time as "Dreamtime". The Dreaming laid down the patterns of life for the Aboriginal people.^[20]

 

Quote

In English, anthropologists have variously translated words normally understood to mean Dreaming or Dreamtime in a variety of other ways, including "Everywhen", "world-dawn", "ancestral past", "ancestral present", "ancestral now" (satirically), "unfixed in time", "abiding events" or "abiding law".^[16

 

Quote

The concept of the Dreaming is inadequately explained by English terms, and difficult to explain in terms of non-Aboriginal cultures. It has been described as "an all-embracing concept that provides rules for living, a moral code, as well as rules for interacting with the natural environment ..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dreaming

 

At one point, Bloodraven tells Bran that the dreamers are calling him.  I wonder if GRRM is applying a form of the dreaming to

the Cotf and greenseers.  In the everywhen of a greenseers extistance; was the false spring at Harrenhall a dream of spring?

Edited April 11 by LynnS

[Black Crow]

On 4/11/2024 at 4:07 PM, LynnS said:

I'd like to bring up this concept of dreaming or the dreamtime relating to Maori legends.  Here's some blurbs from wikipedia.  Does any of this sound familiar?

Isn't this what Leaf says to Bran about the CotF -that they go into the earth, the stones and the trees.  Varamyr experiences this on his true death before he starts his second life...

 

I'll cheerfully that I really don't know enough about the Dreamtime to comment sensibly, but it certainly sounds as though GRRM's "Dreamers" could well be connected to the Dreamtime rather than dreaming randomly so to speak  

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'll cheerfully that I really don't know enough about the Dreamtime to comment sensibly, but it certainly sounds as though GRRM's "Dreamers" could well be connected to the Dreamtime rather than dreaming randomly so to speak  

Nor do I.  What I glean from it is that the dreamtime is related to creation myths and interconnectivity with the natural world.  Also with legendary heroes.  Bran and Bloodraven aren't the only greenseers.  There are cotf connected to the weirnet.  What are they doing?  If they are the dreamers calling Bloodraven; then they are connected or networked to each other.  

Given that 1 in 10,000 skinchangers can be greenseers, can they combine their powers and abilities into songlines (another dreamtime concept)?  Was the great lore that built the Wall a dreaming of a multitude of powerful greenseers?  And do they now maintain the Walls and the seasons? 

[LynnS]

On 4/10/2024 at 6:17 AM, Black Crow said:

Previous entry, posted by the Minions of Fevre River, concerns a colouring book and starts with this curious line:

Long before the Wall fell, the Targaryens reigned with fire and blood.

"Long before the Wall fell" !!!

Is this an inadvertent slip by his minions ?

I had some discussion with JNR on this subject.  I'll pass this on to you:

Re the coloring book "revelation," if you click through the link in the
blog, you get this:

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/731931/house-of-the-dragon-the-official-coloring-book-by-random-house-worlds/

And you can see it says "Game of Thrones -- House of the Dragon" in the
HBO marketing font.

So this HBO-licensed book, and the blog remark about the fall of the
Wall, are only about Show Targs living in Show World.

And on the show, it's true the Wall fell when it was blasted by a
wighted dragon ridden by the Night King.

However, the HBO coloring book and blog entry about it have nothing to
do with Book World.

In Book World, the Wall has not fallen, there is nobody leading the
Popsicles at all, Night's King was a mythical human being (not a
Popsicle), Sansa doesn't marry and is not raped by Ramsay, Theon's
sister is not named Yara, Young Griff does exist, Rickon hasn't been
killed by an arrow, all of Dany's dragons are alive and well and have
never been to Westeros, Jon's true parents are not revealed as or likely
to be Rhaegar and Lyanna, Jon and Dany have never even met, etc.

 I also noticed the text on the Penguin site is pretty blunt:

"Step back into Westeros with this brand new coloring book featuring
over 75 illustrations of your favorite scenes, characters, and show
logos from the hit series House of the Dragon."

So it's definitely limited to Show World, and therefore so is the blog
comment about it.

[Black Crow]

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

I had some discussion with JNR on this subject.  I'll pass this on to you:

Re the coloring book "revelation," if you click through the link in the
blog, you get this:

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/731931/house-of-the-dragon-the-official-coloring-book-by-random-house-worlds/

And you can see it says "Game of Thrones -- House of the Dragon" in the
HBO marketing font.

So this HBO-licensed book, and the blog remark about the fall of the
Wall, are only about Show Targs living in Show World.

And on the show, it's true the Wall fell when it was blasted by a
wighted dragon ridden by the Night King.

However, the HBO coloring book and blog entry about it have nothing to
do with Book World.

In Book World, the Wall has not fallen, there is nobody leading the
Popsicles at all, Night's King was a mythical human being (not a
Popsicle), Sansa doesn't marry and is not raped by Ramsay, Theon's
sister is not named Yara, Young Griff does exist, Rickon hasn't been
killed by an arrow, all of Dany's dragons are alive and well and have
never been to Westeros, Jon's true parents are not revealed as or likely
to be Rhaegar and Lyanna, Jon and Dany have never even met, etc.

 I also noticed the text on the Penguin site is pretty blunt:

"Step back into Westeros with this brand new coloring book featuring
over 75 illustrations of your favorite scenes, characters, and show
logos from the hit series House of the Dragon."

So it's definitely limited to Show World, and therefore so is the blog
comment about it.

Misleading though. Emphasises that of GRRM doesn't get his finger out, the show is going to become canon 

[LynnS]

36 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Misleading though. Emphasises that of GRRM doesn't get his finger out, the show is going to become canon 

I think it's generally accepted that the Wall will fall in some fashion or other.  It may even be one of those things revealed to D&D without saying anything about how GRRM intends that to happen.  As you pointed out, it is presented as a known historical event.   It just won't be the same as the show. 

So far the only cross-over canon that makes any sense to me is Aegon's prophecy (or dream) of ice and fire.  I don't think that's inconsistent with the books.

[LynnS]

A bit more about Maori songlines:

Quote

A songline, also called dreaming track, is one of the paths across the land (or sometimes the sky) within the animist belief systems of the Aboriginal cultures of Australia. They mark the route followed by localised "creator-beings" in the Dreaming. These routes serve as crucial connections between individuals and their ancestral lands, carrying intricate geographical, mythological, and cultural information.

At its core, a songline functions as both a navigational aid and a repository of cultural knowledge. Embedded within traditional song cycles, dance rituals, stories, and artistic expressions, these pathways enable individuals to traverse vast distances while reciting the songs that describe landmarks, water sources, and natural features. Notably, the melodic contours and rhythmic nuances of the songs transcend linguistic barriers, facilitating cross-cultural understanding as different language groups interact and share the essence of these ancient narratives.

A unique facet of songlines lies in their role as cultural passports, denoting respect and recognition for specific regions and their inhabitants when the songs are sung in the appropriate languages. This intricate network of songlines interconnects neighbouring groups, fostering social interactions based on shared beliefs and obligations. The perpetuation of songlines through generations sustains a spiritual connection to the land, underscoring the concept of "connection to country," wherein the intricate relationship between individuals and their ancestral lands forms a cornerstone of Aboriginal identity and cultural preservation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songline

I can see the weirnet functioning as a form of songline in GRRM's world.  

Quote

Aboriginal people regard all land as sacred, and the songs must be continually sung to keep the land "alive".

Quote

Molyneaux and Vitebsky note that the Dreaming Spirits "also deposited the spirits of unborn children and determined the forms of human society", thereby establishing tribal law and totemic paradigms.^[9]

 

Quote

 

... the labyrinth of invisible pathways which meander all over Australia and are known to Europeans as "Dreaming-tracks" or "Songlines"; to the Aboriginals as the "Footprints of the Ancestors" or the "Way of the Lore".

Aboriginal Creation myths tell of the legendary totemic being who wandered over the continent in the Dreamtime, singing out the name of everything that crossed their path - birds, animals, plants, rocks, waterholes - and so singing the world into existence.^[11]

 

 

[Melifeather]

The Earth hums due to a phenomenon known as “microseisms,” which are low-frequency, long-period seismic waves that constantly reverberate through the planet's crust.

Even without earthquakes, seismometers constantly record seismic energy. They record periods of oscillations about every 6 seconds as background noise.

Earth hum was once thought to be very mysterious in nature. It went unexplained for decades. But now scientists discovered that these oscillations are due to ocean waves constantly crashing into continents.

Ocean waves pound continents vibrating like a bell. Then land masses shake back and forth like a metronome. And during storms, it worsens as the reverberations are amplified.

The universe is filled with a constant hum of gravitational waves. Gravitational waves are ripples in the fabric of the universe, caused by the motion of giant, accelerating celestial bodies. They travel through space-time like waves in an ocean, but at the speed of light. 

There's an electrical hum in most animals, including ourselves. Purposeful humming can also help cleanse and detoxify the body by allowing more airflow in the lymphatic system. It eases stress and improves your mood. Yogis have long used humming to wind down and relax the nervous system. They call it "bhramari pranayama". “Bhramari” is derived from the Sanskrit word for bee. It works, because humming causes turbulence in the nasal cavity, which increases the release of a powerful molecule known as nitric oxide. Nitric oxide is a vasodilator, meaning it helps blood flow more easily through the body.

Speaking of your Maori and Aboriginal peoples...the first thing that comes to my mind is that deep throated sound the Didgeridoo makes.

And lets not forget about hummingbirds...

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Speaking of your Maori and Aboriginal peoples...the first thing that comes to my mind is that deep throated sound the Didgeridoo makes.

That's really interesting.  I don't imagine the COTF belting out Walking on Sunshine.  Their songs might be more in tune with the sounds of nature; waves or vibrations that can be manipulated or amplified.  

I wonder if Hodor hears the song:

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

They left Old Nan in the tower room with her needles and her memories. Hodor hummed tunelessly as he carried Bran down the steps and through the gallery, with Maester Luwin following behind, hurrying to keep up with the stableboy's long strides.

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

A series of chisel-cut handholds made a ladder in the granite of the tower's inner wall. Hodor hummed tunelessly as he went down hand under hand, 

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

The godswood was an island of peace in the sea of chaos that Winterfell had become. Hodor made his way through the dense stands of oak and ironwood and sentinels, to the still pool beside the heart tree. He stopped under the gnarled limbs of the weirwood, humming. 

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

The rustling grew louder. Bran heard muffled footfalls and a low humming, and Hodor came blundering out of the trees, naked and smiling. "Hodor!"

 

A Clash of Kings - Bran II

When Hodor came bustling in, smiling and humming tunelessly, 

 

 

 

 

There are 5 more examples of Hodor humming.  He has been altered by future Bran.  

Edited April 22 by LynnS

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

That's really interesting.  I don't imagine the COTF belting out Walking on Sunshine.  Their songs might be more in tune with the sounds of nature; waves or vibrations that can be manipulated or amplified.  

Wouldn't it be something if the singing of the COTF were a deep, BRAAAAAAH like didgeridoo!

[LynnS]

42 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Wouldn't it be something if the singing of the COTF were a deep, BRAAAAAAH like didgeridoo!

LOL - Something along those lines.  Throat singing in the Old Tongue maybe...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throat_singing

 

[Frey family reunion]

Interesting quote I found perusing through a Song of Ice and Fire RPG from Green Ronin publishing.  In it’s description of Howland Reed we’re given this:

Quote

Howland Reed is the Lord of Greywater Watch and is one of Eddard
Stark’s closest friends, being the only other companion to have survived
the fight at the Tower of Joy, even going so far as to save Eddard’s life
from Ser Arthur Dayne, and he also cared for Lyanna Stark in her last
days. After the War of the Usurper, Howland Reed retreated to Grey-
water Watch and has not emerged from his swamps since.

Now granted this is a role playing game, so I’m not sure if this is considered canon, semi-canon or complete nonsense.  I suppose it depends on how they got their information.

If it came from George it might call to question the orthodox assumptions about the tower of joy.  I’m not sure I’ve seen anyone think that they stormed the tower and were with Lyanna for days before her death.   

Also note that the RPG decided to use the connector “and” as opposed to “where”.  In other words, they aren’t necessarily describing Lyanna’s last days as having occurred in the tower of joy.

Edited April 24 by Frey family reunion

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Interesting quote I found perusing through a Song of Ice and Fire RPG from Green Ronin publishing.  In it’s description of Howland Reed we’re given this:

Now granted this is a role playing game, so I’m not sure if this is considered canon, semi-canon or complete nonsense.  I suppose it depends on how they got their information.

If it came from George it might call to question the orthodox assumptions about the tower of joy.  I’m not sure I’ve seen anyone think that they stormed the tower and were with Lyanna for days before her death.   

Also note that the RPG decided to use the connector “and” as opposed to “where”.  In other words, they aren’t necessarily describing Lyanna’s last days as having occurred in the tower of joy.

If true it would certainly provide an explanation for Howland Reed's exile

[LynnS]

OH NO!  Not the tower of joy   This is starting to feel like a scavenger hunt... a little bit here, a little bit there.