Did Mirri Maz Duur's ritual awaken Dany's dragons?

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

What are the nightlands? The Darklyn plain? Sounds like his spirit was destroyed in the nightlands of Dany's dream.

The nightlands is Dothraki heaven. When a man dies, his body and his horse's body are burned on a pyre so he has a mount to ride in the nightlands, where the horse god rules. Only then is the man considered truly dead and his spirit becomes another point of light in the night sky -- the greater the spirit, the brighter the light.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The nightlands is Dothraki heaven. When a man dies, his body and his horse's body are burned on a pyre so he has a mount to ride in the nightlands, where the horse god rules. Only then is the man considered truly dead and his spirit becomes another point of light in the night sky -- the greater the spirit, the brighter the light.

Except in Drogo's case his spirit was destroyed before his body was dead, no matter what Dothraki believe;

[Phylum of Alexandria]

On 1/4/2023 at 12:49 PM, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

I agree. And Azor Ahai is actually the villain of the past war with the Others. A man willing to murder “the woman he loves” for power. Villainous. A good parallel for Dany, who sacrifices others to achieve her goals. Meanwhile Jon is a great parallel for Nissa Nissa, willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good. The true hero of the story.

My guess is that he is both hero and villain. At the heart of this long, complicated, and protracted story, GRRM is trying to tell us that everyone has potential for both good and bad; both heroism and villainy. And with great power, there's great potential to "be" both hero and villain (i.e., to do fantastic and ghastly things). This isn't cynicism, but it's a critique of the typical moral binary that myths and hero stories present. So maybe Azor Ahai did do great things to end the Long Night, but that doesn't change the fact that he shed innocent blood to do so (and maybe brought on the Long Night, if he really did crack the moon).

"The good does not wash out the bad," said one man among many who aspires to be the great hero of destiny but is also quite capable of villainy.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Mirri's only contribution to that grandest event is "awakening the dragon" in the sense that she pushed Daenerys towards her great destiny.  Daenerys might have been content being Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea and a mother to Khal Rhaego.  But we know she is destined for far greater things.  You could say Mirri awakened Daenerys.  As to the waking of the three dragons, well it is plain to see.  That was all Daenerys. 

Mirri was aware of the moment's importance.  Dany's red comet is an important marker.  Dany must reborn into Azor Ahai at the same time of the comet's appearance.  For that, perhaps, Mirri was willing to get her hands bloody.  How many times will three kings die at near the same time.  King Viserys III of Westeros, Khal Drogo of the Dothraki, and King Rhaego of Westeros and the Dothraki.  Quite an impressive line up of true kings.  That's a lot of very noble blood in the Dothraki Sea. 

[Kingmonkey]

On 1/4/2023 at 3:50 PM, Potsk said:

The other day I was rereading AGOT when I noticed something I don't see get talked about at all: Dany begins to sense life inside the dragon eggs immediately after Mirri's bloodmagic ritual. Did the deaths of Qotho, Haggo, Quaro, Drogo's stallion, and Rhaego pay for the lives of Drogon, Rhaegal, and Viserion?

I suspect you're right that MMD's bloodmagic ritual, perhaps unintentionally, was a trigger for the birth of dragons. You may find my "Puppets of Ice and Fire" essay linked in my sig below of interest, it goes into this topic at some length

[John Suburbs]

On 1/6/2023 at 3:06 PM, sweetsunray said:

Except in Drogo's case his spirit was destroyed before his body was dead, no matter what Dothraki believe;

Was it? His physical body was shuttered but who knows what was going on inside? I find it hard to look at Drogon and not see the spirit of Drogo in there. And at the same time, I see Viseryon as Rhaego: always clinging to Dany, wanting to be held, throwing a tantrum when she puts him aside, like a child with his mother; and Rhaegel is aloof, almost mistrustful of Dany, which is what we would expect from the spirit of MMD.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Was it? His physical body was shuttered but who knows what was going on inside? I find it hard to look at Drogon and not see the spirit of Drogo in there. And at the same time, I see Viseryon as Rhaego: always clinging to Dany, wanting to be held, throwing a tantrum when she puts him aside, like a child with his mother; and Rhaegel is aloof, almost mistrustful of Dany, which is what we would expect from the spirit of MMD.

Burned by the winged dragon in Dany's dream and ends up as a living shell with only physical reflexes, but no memory or human connection. Yup destroyed.

Here's an interesting description

Quote

It was a man—or what remained of one. Tall, lean, and muscular, it lay unmoving on the floor and stared from unseeing eyes. A heart beat, and lungs inhaled, but there was no other motion. No will stirred this creature; no instincts prompted it. It lay still and silent, eyes focused vacantly on the ceiling; a discarded, empty shell. It was a thing without a mind—or a soul.

Recognize it? That man with his heart beating, lungs inhaling but silent and unseeing, without a mind or soul is called Jasper. A thief in one of the first published stories by George: Only Kids are Afraid of the Dark.

His soul is destroyed by a bat winged demon called Saagael.

Quote

The noise grew, from a whisper to a shout to a roar, until it filled the ancient temple. Jasper looked around in annoyance. He could not understand what was going on. Above the altar, a large crack appeared, and beyond it mist swirled and things moved. Darkness flowed from the crack, darkness blacker and denser and colder than anything Jasper had ever witnessed. Swirling, shifting, it gathered itself into a pocket of absolute black in one corner of the room. It seemed to grow, to change shape, to harden, and to coalesce.

And quickly it was gone. In its place stood something vaguely humanoid; a large, powerful frame clad in garments of a soft, dark gray. It wore a belt and a cape, leathery things made from the hide of some unholy creature never before seen on earth. A hood of the cape covered its head, and underneath it only blackness stared out, marked by two pits of final night darker and deeper than the rest. A great batlike clasp of some dark, glowing rock fastened the cape in place.

Jasper’s voice was a whisper. “W-w-who are you?”

A low, hollow, haunting laughter filled the recesses of the temple and spread out through the night. “I? I am War, and Plague, and Blood. I am Death, and Darkness, and Fear.” The laughter again. “I am Saagael, Prince of Demons, Lord of Darkness, King of Corlos, unquestioned Sovereign of the Netherworld. I am Saagael, he whom your ancestors called the Soul-Destroyer. And you have called me.”

Jasper’s eyes were wide with fear, and the rubies, forgotten, lay in the dust. The apparition had raised a hand, and blackness and night gathered around it. Evil power coursed through the air. Then, for Jasper, there was only darkness, final and eternal. (Dreamsongs I, Only Kids are Afraid in the Dark)

Saagael is mentioned in Fire & Blood, as one of the gods worhsipped at Lys and who was worhsipped by Lara Rogare, wife to Vyseris II at a time when the Targaryen dragons were nearing their end.

How did Jasper end up being zapped out of soul existence by Saagael? He lit a campfire and killed his fellow thief with a knife, splattering blood on Saagael's altar: a blood and fire ritual.

MMD's ritual involves fire and blood. Shadows are raised inside the tent. One of those shadows Dany sees in her dream: a winged shadow that burns Drogo to nothing in the dream.

Dany wakes up and finds Drogo in the exact same state that Jasper was.

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Burned by the winged dragon in Dany's dream and ends up as a living shell with only physical reflexes, but no memory or human connection. Yup destroyed.

Here's an interesting description

Recognize it? That man with his heart beating, lungs inhaling but silent and unseeing, without a mind or soul is called Jasper. A thief in one of the first published stories by George: Only Kids are Afraid of the Dark.

His soul is destroyed by a bat winged demon called Saagael.

Saagael is mentioned in Fire & Blood, as one of the gods worhsipped at Lys and who was worhsipped by Lara Rogare, wife to Vyseris II at a time when the Targaryen dragons were nearing their end.

How did Jasper end up being zapped out of soul existence by Saagael? He lit a campfire and killed his fellow thief with a knife, splattering blood on Saagael's altar: a blood and fire ritual.

MMD's ritual involves fire and blood. Shadows are raised inside the tent. One of those shadows Dany sees in her dream: a winged shadow that burns Drogo to nothing in the dream.

Dany wakes up and finds Drogo in the exact same state that Jasper was.

Sorry, but what Martin writes in other novels is irrelevant to this. In Dothraki culture -- in this novel, right here, right now -- a man is not truly dead until his spirit is released into the nightlands. 

[sweetsunray]

39 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, but what Martin writes in other novels is irrelevant to this. In Dothraki culture -- in this novel, right here, right now -- a man is not truly dead until his spirit is released into the nightlands. 

Sorry, but what Dothraki culture believes has zero impact to what we witness in Dany's dream and its described physical result, during a magical event that Dothraki considered forbidden and wanted to kill a pregnant Dany for.

[Northern Sword]

On 1/5/2023 at 10:03 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

We are actually far apart on this. Daenerys  “sacrificed” Drogo and thus was reborn into Azor Ahai, the primary protagonists of the story who will defeat Bran the Dark to end the long night. Jon’s role is the conflicted leader of the night’s watch who opened the doors for the Others.
 

To compare it to the Wheel of Time novels, Bran is Shaitan, the lord of darkness, a leading villain. Arya is the equivalent of Padan Fain, the peddler. 

I like the thought of comparing these books, but I am not sure I agree with your conclusion. 

So Daenerys is Rand al' Thor ? That is a stretch I think. 

The father raising a son not of their line = raised by Tam = Ned, which would indicate Rand = Jon , no?

And Arya being a peddler ??  She seems more of a lucky to be alive type of person... so Mat Cauthon 

Clearly a Stark would be Perrin though.

Sorry its been a while since I read WOT. I could be absolutely wrong here.

Might be a good series to re read while waiting on George.

 

[Tyrosh Lannister]

Death pays for life.

Whose lives paid for the birth of 3 dragons ?

Drogo, Mirri and who is the third person?

Or was Drogo's soul so powerful it was enough to birth two dragons ?