Badass Ned Appreciation Thread

[Many-Faced Votary]

10 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Cheers, I'm familiar. Just don't think it's enough for Jorah!

Honestly, I'll never understand why so many readers like him, especially readers who like Dany! Another thing to blame the abomination for, w/ smooth talking Iain Glen acting nothing like book!Jorah. 

Iain Glen's Hilariously-Friendzoned-with-Pure-Virtuous-Love-for-Dany Jorah definitely played a huge role.

I couldn't say why anyone who read the books would like him even then, though -- much less readers who like Dany. He's so blatantly vile, and some of Dany's best moments are calling out his behavior and rejecting him and what he represents.

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I couldn't say why anyone who read the books would like him even then, though -- much less readers who like Dany. He's so blatantly vile, and some of Dany's best moments are calling out his behavior and rejecting him and what he represents.

Like when? What advice was so blatantly vile?

Some of his advice she disagrees with, this is no different then any of her advisors. However sometimes she does listen to him, this resulted in the creation of her army, her campaign and her conquests.

What's his crime that he loves Dany? Who doesn't. He's like Daario who gives his heart soul and sword to Dany as soon as he fell in love. What's not to like?

Did he sell a couple of slaves before? Yes. Did he free hundreds since? Yes 

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like when? What advice was so blatantly vile?

Some of his advice she disagrees with, this is no different then any of her advisors. However sometimes she does listen to him, this resulted in the creation of her army, her campaign and her conquests.

What's his crime that he loves Dany? Who doesn't. He's like Daario who gives his heart soul and sword to Dany as soon as he fell in love. What's not to like?

Did he sell a couple of slaves before? Yes. Did he free hundreds since? Yes 

Never mind bad advice, he’s a creepy stalker paedo and I’m always in shock when I see some of the most diehard Dany fans defend him and say they like him. Yikes.

[Many-Faced Votary]

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like when? What advice was so blatantly vile?

Telling her to buy a slave army, for one of many things. But as @kissdbyfire said, this isn't just about his bad advice, but about his character and the fact that he's a creepy stalker and pedophile.

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

However sometimes she does listen to him, this resulted in the creation of her army, her campaign and her conquests.

Why are you giving Dany's accomplishments to Jorah? Literally the only good thing he did was suggest that she pretend not to know High Valyrian in Astapor -- and she took that advice to a much higher level. Everything else in Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen was all her, and asking her advisors what she thought of her plans.

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

What's his crime that he loves Dany? Who doesn't. He's like Daario who gives his heart soul and sword to Dany as soon as he fell in love. What's not to like?

He doesn't "love" Dany, and he continues to report on her at least as late as Qarth (after the birth of the dragons). He lusts for her, wants her to be his, and thinks he is owed her love.

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Did he sell a couple of slaves before? Yes. Did he free hundreds since? Yes 

Jorah didn't free any slaves. Dany did. In fact, he constantly suggested that Dany purchase and use slaves.

Jorah only did what Dany commanded when it came to freeing slaves; there's no credit to be laid at his feet.

[LongRider]

I did enjoy Jorah learning all about the slave life and just how much he hated it.  very satisfying. 

[Hugorfonics]

17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Never mind bad advice, he’s a creepy stalker paedo and I’m always in shock when I see some of the most diehard Dany fans defend him and say they like him. Yikes.

He's not a stalker. Yea he likes an underage girl but the whole world does. She's special. He kissed her, she said don't do that again and he hasn't.

And although I wouldn't call myself a most diehard fan, I am without a doubt a huge Dany fan.

(And I don't see how anybody can like Ned Stark, yet here we are)

13 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Telling her to buy a slave army, for one of many things. But as @kissdbyfire said, this isn't just about his bad advice, but about his character and the fact that he's a creepy stalker and pedophile.

That's one thing.

He's ugly and 50. What a monster!

14 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Why are you giving Dany's accomplishments to Jorah? Literally the only good thing he did was suggest that she pretend not to know High Valyrian in Astapor -- and she took that advice to a much higher level. Everything else in Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen was all her, and asking her advisors what she thought of her plans.

Taking her to Slavers Bay and showing her the value and suspectness of Illyrios money. He told her about making money in Qarth but again keeping her wits. 

Aspator definitely makes it seem like the bloodriders and Jorah did lots of the planning but Yunaki was all her and Meereen was mostly Ben with the work of Jorah and Barristan.

18 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

He doesn't "love" Dany, and he continues to report on her at least as late as Qarth (after the birth of the dragons). He lusts for her, wants her to be his, and thinks he is owed her love.

He seems to be in love. That's why he's planning on warring against the world to rescue his beloved like some type of Sansa knight

20 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Jorah didn't free any slaves. Dany did. In fact, he constantly suggested that Dany purchase and use slaves.

Constantly? When after Aspator did Jorah suggest using slavery?

21 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Jorah only did what Dany commanded when it came to freeing slaves; there's no credit to be laid at his feet

He personally struck the chains off

[Many-Faced Votary]

I really don't want to comb through Dany's chapters to discuss Jorah of all people.  I hope you'll forgive the lack of quotes, because there are too many for this to be reasonable with the citations. 

But Jorah's behavior is textbook stalker, and he's doing his best to isolate and gaslight her into trusting no one but him. I don't know if you're being contrarian or honestly don't see the problem with his actions; if the latter, I suggest rereading Dany's chapters to see how he acts and what he represents.

 

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Constantly? When after Aspator did Jorah suggest using slavery?

Never, because he knew Dany would not take it well. But he suggested it multiple times in ACoK and leading up to Astapor in ASoS, and justified selling people into slavery multiple times (including when he did it in the past) in AGoT.

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He personally struck the chains off

On Dany's command.

[Hugorfonics]

14 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I really don't want to comb through Dany's chapters to discuss Jorah of all people.  I hope you'll forgive the lack of quotes, because there are too many for this to be reasonable with the citations. 

But Jorah's behavior is textbook stalker, and he's doing his best to isolate and gaslight her into trusting no one but him. I don't know if you're being contrarian or honestly don't see the problem with his actions; if the latter, I suggest rereading Dany's chapters to see how he acts and what he represents.

Don't wanna bring up any quotes because there are too many but suggest I reread. 

Good conversation.

[Many-Faced Votary]

51 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Don't wanna bring up any quotes because there are too many but suggest I reread. 

Good conversation.

I'll give you two quotes in the chapter of Jorah's exile, then.

Keep in mind that this followed behavior that was problematic in AGoT, and outright gaslighting and attempted grooming throughout ACoK and up to this point in ASoS.

This was also following a kiss earlier in this book, which he forced upon Dany in her cabin while staring at her breasts with obvious lustful intent. Here, he tried to get her to take him as one of two husbands and receive a dragon in the process, and assured her (for the trillionth time) that she couldn't trust anyone but him, who spied on her at least as late as Qarth, after he claimed to have fallen in love with her. But I don't care to post that scene.

 

This is Dany, more than perceptive enough to realize Jorah's BS and finally getting tired of it, calling him out for this behavior specifically -- the same behavior he practices in this scene, from trying to isolate her to infantilizing and disrespecting her by using her name in a "foolish child" sort of way.

"Five hundred sellswords of uncertain loyalty."

"All loyalties are uncertain in such times as these," Dany reminded him. And I shall be betrayed twice more, once for gold and once for love.

"Daenerys, I am thrice your age," Ser Jorah said. "I have seen how false men are. Very few are worthy of trust, and Daario Naharis is not one of them. Even his beard wears false colors."

That angered her. "Whilst you have an honest beard, is that what you are telling me? You are the only man I should ever trust?"

He stiffened. "I did not say that."

"You say it every day. Pyat Pree's a liar, Xaro's a schemer, Belwas a braggart, Arstan an assassin . . . do you think I'm still some virgin girl, that I cannot hear the words behind the words?"

"Your Grace—"

She bulled over him. "You have been a better friend to me than any I have known, a better brother than Viserys ever was. You are the first of my Queensguard, the commander of my army, my most valued counselor, my good right hand. I honor and respect and cherish you—but I do not desire you, Jorah Mormont, and I am weary of your trying to push every other man in the world away from me, so I must needs rely on you and you alone. It will not serve, and it will not make me love you any better."

Mormont had flushed red when she first began, but by the time Dany was done his face was pale again. He stood still as stone. "If my queen commands," he said, curt and cold.

Daenerys IV, A Storm of Swords

This was very blatantly spelled out for the reader, so I suppose my question is, why do you defend Jorah here? Do you think Dany was in the wrong, perhaps? (The only thing she did wrong was give Jorah way more chances than he deserved and tolerate his manipulations and advances for far too long.)

 

Then here, we get confirmation of how unrepentant Jorah was in any of his behavior, including -- and saliently here -- his high treason. You know, the one truly universal crime that gets you executed in any realm in this world.

[Barristan] went to one knee and lay the blade before her as he said the words. Dany scarcely heard them. He was the easy one, she thought. The other will be harder. When Ser Barristan was done, she turned to Jorah Mormont. "And now you, ser. Tell me true."

The big man's neck was red; whether from anger or shame she did not know. "I have tried to tell you true, half a hundred times. I told you Arstan was more than he seemed. I warned you that Xaro and Pyat Pree were not to be trusted. I warned you—"

"You warned me against everyone except yourself." His insolence angered her. He should be humbler. He should beg for my forgiveness. "Trust no one but Jorah Mormont, you said . . . and all the time you were the Spider's creature!"

"I am no man's creature. I took the eunuch's gold, yes. I learned some ciphers and wrote some letters, but that was all—"

"All? You spied on me and sold me to my enemies!"

"For a time." He said it grudgingly. "I stopped."

"When? When did you stop?"

"I made one report from Qarth, but—" "From Qarth?" Dany had been hoping it had ended much earlier.

"What did you write from Quarth? That you were my man now, that you wanted no more of their schemes?" Ser Jorah could not meet her eyes. "When Khal Drogo died, you asked me to go with you to Yi Ti and the Jade Sea. Was that your wish or Robert's?"

"That was to protect you," he insisted. "To keep you away from them. I knew what snakes they were . . ."

"Snakes? And what are you, ser?" Something unspeakable occurred to her. "You told them I was carrying Drogo's child . . ."

"Khaleesi . . ."

"Do not think to deny it, ser," Ser Barristan said sharply. "I was there when the eunuch told the council, and Robert decreed that Her Grace and her child must die. You were the source, ser. There was even talk that you might do the deed, for a pardon."

"A lie." Ser Jorah's face darkened. "I would never . . . Daenerys, it was me who stopped you from drinking the wine."

"Yes. And how was it you knew the wine was poisoned?"

"I . . . I but suspected . . . the caravan brought a letter from Varys, he warned me there would be attempts. He wanted you watched, yes, but not harmed." He went to his knees. "If I had not told them someone else would have. You know that."

"I know you betrayed me." She touched her belly, where her son Rhaego had perished. "I know a poisoner tried to kill my son, because of you. That's what I know."

"No . . . no." He shook his head. "I never meant . . . forgive me. You have to forgive me."

Daenerys VI, A Storm of Swords

He takes no responsibility for his actions and is not even slightly remorseful. Note especially such charming lines as "someone would have spied; why not me?" and "you have to forgive me."

Again, why is this behavior you're whitewashing and defending? Did you perhaps forget who and what he is?

 

These two passages are the sum of Jorah's character. I do not wish to do a deep dive to dig up endless quotes of how reprehensible he is, so I'll leave it at that.

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

This was also following a kiss earlier in this book, which he forced upon Dany in her cabin while staring at her breasts with obvious lustful intent. Here, he tried to get her to take him as one of two husbands and receive a dragon in the process, and assured her (for the trillionth time) that she couldn't trust anyone but him, who spied on her at least as late as Qarth, after he claimed to have fallen in love with her. But I don't care to post that scene.

He asked if he could come in, when she did she didn't bother covering up and got straight to politics. Later he misreads the scene and kisses her, she checks him and he leaves.

He wanted to go home, the spider spun such a web that Jorah was tangled in his lies. He's definitely no saint and comes with a rougher back story then most characters but I believe him when he said he was done after Qarth.

2 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

This was very blatantly spelled out for the reader, so I suppose my question is, why do you defend Jorah here? Do you think Dany was in the wrong, perhaps? (The only thing she did wrong was give Jorah way more chances than he deserved and tolerate his manipulations and advances for far too long.)

Jorah is very correct that Dany should be mistrustful and even though she didn't want to hear it she understood. (Lady is mad paranoid) Dany was correct in telling Jorah he's not her type in a romantic setting but she'll always still need him, he didn't want to hear that either but understood.

That's what's spelled out for the reader.

2 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

He takes no responsibility for his actions and is not even slightly remorseful. Note especially such charming lines as "someone would have spied; why not me?" and "you have to forgive me."

Again, why is this behavior you're whitewashing and defending? Did you perhaps forget who and what he is?

He's a knight. And a human who's done wrong with a pitiful past. But he also holds Danys interest at heart. What do you think he is?

He definitely isn't like a shining knight in sparkling armor type guy, I'm not trying to whitewash him but I'm also not trying to smear him in shit 

[Many-Faced Votary]

29 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

(Lady is mad paranoid)

Unfortunately, I don't think we're going to have a productive discussion about Jorah. He's reprehensible, and I see no reason to be charitable to him to the point of whitewashing (by accident -- I do believe that you don't mean to), because saying that little is already being charitable to him, in my view.

But I'm going to push back on you attributing this characterization to Daenerys to defend Jorah. (To make him look better? I really didn't understand the point of this, especially when you admitted that Jorah was telling Dany to be distrustful, meaning that she wasn't already.)

Dany is not paranoid. In fact, she expressly says that it is as foolish to trust no one as it is to trust everyone:

"Four men? Khaleesi, you believe you know Illyrio Mopatis, very well. Yet you insist on surrounding yourself with men you do not know, like this puffed-up eunuch and the world's oldest squire. Take a lesson from Pyat Pree and Xaro Xhoan Daxos."

He means well, Dany reminded herself. He does all he does for love. "It seems to me that a queen who trusts no one is as foolish as a queen who trusts everyone. Every man I take into my service is a risk, I understand that, but how am I to win the Seven Kingdoms without such risks? Am I to conquer Westeros with one exile knight and three Dothraki bloodriders?"

Daenerys I, A Storm of Swords

She knows to differentiate between trust and the practicality of working together:

"Sweetness cloys. Tart fruit and tart women give life its savor." Xaro took another bite, chewed, swallowed. "Daenerys, sweet queen, I cannot tell you what pleasure it gives me to bask once more in your presence. A child departed Qarth, as lost as she was lovely. I feared she was sailing to her doom, yet now I find her here enthroned, mistress of an ancient city, surrounded by a mighty host that she raised up out of dreams."

No, she thought, out of blood and fire. "I am glad you came to me. It is good to see your face again, my friend." I will not trust you, but I need you. I need your Thirteen, I need your ships, I need your trade.

Daenerys III, A Dance with Dragons

She very much keeps her prophecies in mind, because it would be truly insane not to; but she doesn't let them drive her decisions:

When Reznak and Skahaz appeared, she found herself looking at them askance, mindful of the three treasons. Beware the perfumed seneschal. She sniffed suspiciously at Reznak mo Reznak. I could command the Shavepate to arrest him and put him to the question. Would that forestall the prophecy? Or would some other betrayer take his place? Prophecies are treacherous, she reminded herself, and Reznak may be no more than he appears.

Daenerys II, A Dance with Dragons

He shall be the stallion that mounts the world. Dany knew how it went with prophecies. They were made of words, and words were wind. There would be no son for Loraq, no heir to unite dragon and harpy. When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, when the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. Only then would her womb quicken once again …

… but Daenerys Targaryen had other children, tens of thousands who had hailed her as their mother when she broke their chains. She thought of Stalwart Shield, of Missandei's brother, of the woman Rylona Rhee, who had played the harp so beautifully. No marriage would ever bring them back to life, but if a husband could help end the slaughter, then she owed it to her dead to marry.

Daenerys IV, Dance with Dragons

Cersei is an example of someone who is actually paranoid and who lets her paranoia drive her decisions. The way they react differently to prophecy is night-and-day. It is one of her many contrasts, or anti-parallels, with Daenerys.

[Bendric Dayne]

On 3/2/2023 at 5:09 PM, Many-Faced Votary said:

Iain Glen's Hilariously-Friendzoned-with-Pure-Virtuous-Love-for-Dany Jorah definitely played a huge role.

As someone who watched the show before reading the books, I'm definitely a victim of this. I always read him as this hopeless romantic type and always pictured Iain Glen. I was pretty shocked to learn that this wasn't how everyone read him. I think everyone is entitled to interpret the text as they will. So if you feel he was a creep then that is your right, it is a thin line between romantic and stalker after all. A spontaneous kiss can be romantic as it can be creepy and uncomfortable. 

I always felt Jorah was a hopeless romantic. When he kissed Dany, I did feel uncomfortable reading that scene from her perspective, knowing she did not want it. However, I still feel Jorah intended to be romantic and hoped Dany would feel as though that kiss was romantic. She clearly didn't, but I still think she doesn't think of him as "blatantly vile" as you say, or as a creepy stalker or anything. I think she feels like he's a hopeless romantic. She never really thinks of him as creepy and she clearly cares for him. She kinda pities him for being such a hopeless romantic because she knows she will never reciprocate those feelings. 

So I would disagree with you when you say that he's "blatantly vile" mostly because Dany, who is the subject of these so called 'vile' actions, doesn't seem to feel that way about him. She cares for him and appreciates having him and his council around. She doesn't view his romantic pursuits as creepy, but as pathetic. His attempts to convince Dany to remove all the other men around her are desperate and pathetic. When she figures out what he's trying to do she calls him out on it because she sees what he's trying to do. Even after she sees what he's trying to do, she doesn't consider him a creep or his actions vile. In the very quote you posted, she reiterates how she cares for him in a non-romantic way by calling him a brother. If she felt he was a creep for doing what he did, she wouldn't call him her brother. Which calling him her brother is also a way of totally friend-zoning Jorah btw. 

Jorah's pathetic and desperate hopeless romantic arch is reiterated by Tyrion. When Tyrion figures out who Jorah was, he figures he must have been exiled by Dany for spying on her. He questions why he is bringing Tyrion back to her and realizes that he loves her. Tyrion doesn't think this is creepy or anything, he thinks it's pathetic. Jorah is so desperately in love with Dany that he hopes that bringing Tyrion to her will make her forgive him and hopes that he can then maybe make her love him, which is pathetic. 

I think GRRM uses Jorah to subvert yet another popular fantasy theme. That a noble knight can be so perfect and romantic that he can make a princess fall in love with him against all hopes. The idea that a knight can be as perfect as they are in the stories is unrealistic which is why Jorah is flawed; he sold slaves for love, he spied on Dany before he fell in love with her. The idea that a knight can make a woman fall in love with him by being hopelessly romantic is nice in the fantasy stories, but again, unrealistic. In reality, the knight gets friend-zoned while the princess goes off with the Daarios of this world, the bad boys. I think this subversion of this fantasy theme gets undermined if Jorah isn't a hopeless romantic; if he's just vile or creepy or a stalker.

So while I agree that Jorah's actions can be interpreted as vile and creepy, I think the fact that Dany sees them more as acts from a hopeless romantic dude who is desperate and pretty pathetic, tells us that we should also see Jorah that way. Or at least that that's GRRM's intention, so that he can subvert that fantasy theme more effectively.