Do you guys think that the Iron Throne and the 7K as a single entity will survive the ending of the series?

[KingStoneheart]

I would like to see it return to Seven Kingdoms properly after King’s Landing (and the Iron Throne) are destroyed.

The North, The Riverlands and The Vale - Sansa has what it takes to bring the Vale behind the North

The Iron Islands - although a tamed version than history, initially anyway before the remaining Reavers start wanting to return to their old ways

The Westerlands - behind the last remaining Lannister or another elected Lord from the next great house that survives (Tyrion will be banished for the crimes against his own family)

The Reach - you have it right that House Tyrell are not royalty, and so they may be extinct by the end of the series and similar to the Westerlands above the Reach would elect the Lord of the next greatest house

The Stormlands - I agree, Edric Storm (the closest Noble raised bastard of Robert’s) and I can’t see Shireen surviving the series

The Crownlands - ruling from Dragonstone now that KL is destroyed but unsure who would rule. Perhaps Tyrion

Dorne - ruled by the current leader of House Martell or follow suite like Reach and Westerlands

[Craving Peaches]

32 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Well, at a time. They once owned Spain and it's American empire and with Hungary under their belt they owned Transylvania and other Romanian lands.

No, the Habsburg dynasty did. Hapsburgs =/= HRE. Their Hungarian, Transylvanian and Romanian possessions were not considered part of the HRE. Neither was Spain. HRE's later full name was Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. So it was certainly not all of Europe.

34 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Well neither was Dorne

It is counted in the book so?

35 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But they command worthwhile land

Not according to Stannis they don't. No one in the Text considers Dragonstone to be a kingdom. Aegon certainly didn't because he was only lord of Dragonstone.

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

If the plan that Illyrio and Littlefinger have cooked up works out, then the realm will break apart -- with Illyrio dominating trade on the Narrow Sea following the collapse of the Iron Bank and the Braavosi economy, and Littlefinger controlling all of the key ports on the eastern side of Westeros.

Illyrio and lf?  Did we read different books?

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

No, the Habsburg dynasty did. Hapsburgs =/= HRE. Their Hungarian, Transylvanian and Romanian possessions were not considered part of the HRE. Neither was Spain.

I'm not following. Was the Riverland possession under Harren not Ironborn property?

Like they were swearing allegiance to the emperor and king of the romans

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

HRE's later full name was Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. So it was certainly not all of Europe.

For sure, at a time.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

It is counted in the book so?

Well so is the Riverlands 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Not according to Stannis they don't. No one in the Text considers Dragonstone to be a kingdom. Aegon certainly didn't because he was only lord of Dragonstone.

They've historically caused a lot of trouble, especially compared to it's sister kingdoms 

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I'm not following. Was the Riverland possession under Harren not Ironborn property?

Like they were swearing allegiance to the emperor and king of the romans

Hungary and the Habsburg possessions outside of the HRE including Spain and Transylvania were not counted as part of the HRE. They just weren't. This is just a fact.

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

For sure, at a time.

At no time did the HRE represent a united Europe. This is just common sense when you look at where the HRE was, who was involved and what land it covered.

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Well so is the Riverlands 

According to the Wiki they don't count, they count as part of the Iron Islands as Harren Hoare's Kingdom.

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

They've historically caused a lot of trouble,

So? Doesn't make them a kingdom.

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

especially compared to it's sister kingdoms 

They are not a kingdom. Dragonstone is not comparable to any of the recognised Seven Kingdoms in terms of size, population, army size. If it was a kingdom Aegon would call himself King of Dragonstone. People in the story would treat it as a kingdom not a lordship.

[Hugorfonics]

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Hungary and the Habsburg possessions outside of the HRE including Spain and Transylvania were not counted as part of the HRE. They just weren't. This is just a fact.

I still don't get it. Egypt was Augustus' personal land, but looking back it was of course part of Rome.

Hungary had like that diet and stuff, but they were constantly under the empires sphere of influence, if not directly under it's control.

(But Hungary is central Europe)

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

At no time did the HRE represent a united Europe. This is just common sense when you look at where the HRE was, who was involved and what land it covered.

They claimed succussion of Augustus, even after dropping that they called themselves kaiser. Like practically everyone else called themselves Caesar too. 

They definitely like, Christitandom was a thing and it was centered around Rome and Germany but it was pretty much Europe.

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

According to the Wiki

I wouldn't go by that 

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

they count as part of the Iron Islands as Harren Hoare's Kingdom.

Right because at the time of Aegon they weren't a kingdom, like Dorne

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

So? Doesn't make them a kingdom.

They are not a kingdom. Dragonstone is not comparable to any of the recognised Seven Kingdoms in terms of size, population, army size. If it was a kingdom Aegon would call himself King of Dragonstone. People in the story would treat it as a kingdom not a lordship.

They talk about paying Dragonstone homage. We don't really hear about that with like the Eyrie

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hungary had like that diet and stuff, but they were constantly under the empires sphere of influence, if not directly under it's control.

I think the way it works is the guy in charge is HR Emperor and King of Hungary and these are separate titles and one isn't 'under' the other.

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

(But Hungary is central Europe)

True.

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

They claimed succussion of Augustus, even after dropping that they called themselves kaiser. Like practically everyone else called themselves Caesar too. 

They definitely like, Christitandom was a thing and it was centered around Rome and Germany but it was pretty much Europe.

The argument can be made that they were a successor of Rome but that doesn't mean they were a united Europe. They didn't have the City of Rome, France, Britain, Constantinople, South of Italy, Greece etc. They were missing a lot of parts. Play EU4 if you want to make the HRE really unite Europe 

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I wouldn't go by that 

The Wiki does have a source which is TWOIAF. The Seven Kingdoms are the Seven that were there on mainland Westeros when Aegon invaded.

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

They talk about paying Dragonstone homage.

Where?

[Hugorfonics]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think the way it works is the guy in charge is HR Emperor and King of Hungary and these are separate titles and one isn't 'under' the other.

But this is just weird medieval legal mumbo jumbo. (Hungary is super confusing because of their "liberal" ways). 

They definitely addressed him as emperor and king of the Romans and the Rhoynar and First Men and stuff tho.

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The argument can be made that they were a successor of Rome but that doesn't mean they were a united Europe. They didn't have the City of Rome, France, Britain, Constantinople, South of Italy, Greece etc. They were missing a lot of parts. Play EU4 if you want to make the HRE really unite Europe 

I don't care lol. I just kinda think in the broad terms Europe as a whole tries to unify more then divide. Not as much as China or Westeros but they try sometimes.

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The Wiki does have a source which is TWOIAF.

I wouldn't go by that either lol

12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The Seven Kingdoms are the Seven that were there on mainland Westeros when Aegon invaded.

1. North.2.Iron.3.Vale.4.Storm.5.West.6.Reach.

7?

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Where?

Like House of Dragon shit

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

1. North.2.Iron.3.Vale.4.Storm.5.West.6.Reach.

7?

7 = Kingdom of Isles and Rivers. And then you add in Dorne.

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

But this is just weird medieval legal mumbo jumbo.

Well that's how it works...?

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

I don't care lol. I just kinda think in the broad terms Europe as a whole tries to unify more then divide. Not as much as China or Westeros but they try sometimes.

Yeah.

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like House of Dragon shit

Not seen that so can't comment.

[Hugorfonics]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

7 = Kingdom of Isles and Rivers.

Iron+Islands?

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

And then you add in Dorne

Well that's 9 then. (Dorne is a principality)

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Well that's how it works...?

But not really though. Like, it's actually about influence and boots on the ground and stuff.

If you swear fealty to the emperor, in my book that means you work for the empire.

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Not seen that so can't comment.

I quit watching. Asked to lmk when the first kid loses an eye, she got pretty mad at me... Lol. Turns out next episode kid lost an eye! But, I never got back into it for some reason. I hear it's good.

I meant just the times. She did ask for homage in the books, no? And Stannis does ask for homage from Dragonstone too

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

If you swear fealty to the emperor, in my book that means you work for the empire.

Yeah but they aren't swearing fealty to the Emperor, they're swearing fealty to the King of Hungary.

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Iron+Islands?

Iron Islands + Riverlands = One Kingdom. Then you have North, Vale, Reach, West, Stormlands and Dorne for seven total.

[Hugorfonics]

9 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yeah but they aren't swearing fealty to the Emperor, they're swearing fealty to the King of Hungary.

Who's the emperor. And when they announce him it's with all his Dany like titles (I think)

9 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Dorne for seven total.

But Dornes not a kingdom it's a principality 

[Craving Peaches]

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Who's the emperor. And when they announce him it's with all his Dany like titles (I think)

Like I know it's hard to understand because there aren't really any comparable examples in the books, but one feudal 'chain' ends with being King of Hungary, the other with being HRE emperor. There is no overlap. This doesn't come up in the books because we don't have any emperor rank. But that's just the way it works. Like Meereen is its own kingdom not part of the Seven Kingdoms. So vassal of Meereen would swear fealty to Daenerys as Queen of Meereen not Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But Dornes not a kingdom it's a principality 

It's counted as a kingdom in the books so I am counting it.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Who's the emperor.

Titles are seperate. 

 

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Like I know it's hard to understand because there aren't really any comparable examples in the books, but one feudal 'chain' ends with being King of Hungary, the other with being HRE emperor. There is no overlap. This doesn't come up in the books because we don't have any emperor rank. But that's just the way it works. Like Meereen is its own kingdom not part of the Seven Kingdoms. So vassal of Meereen would swear fealty to Daenerys as Queen of Meereen not Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

It's counted as a kingdom in the books so I am counting it.

I think one of the best examples would be that bastard William. He was a king, but was also the vassal of King of France for his holdings there.

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I think one of the best examples would be that bastard William. He was a king, but was also the vassal of King of France for his holdings there.

Harold Godwinson, the last true King of England...

[Hugorfonics]

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Like I know it's hard to understand because there aren't really any comparable examples in the books, but one feudal 'chain' ends with being King of Hungary, the other with being HRE emperor. There is no overlap. This doesn't come up in the books because we don't have any emperor rank. But that's just the way it works. Like Meereen is its own kingdom not part of the Seven Kingdoms. So vassal of Meereen would swear fealty to Daenerys as Queen of Meereen not Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

But this is medieval mumbo jumbo, we might as well discuss how the universe revolves around the earth or how we should all be leeching each other.

In actuality, they call the man emperor and their troops are at the empires disposal 

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It's counted as a kingdom in the books so I am counting it

Citation?

I found this, in twoiaf. It's not very helpful 

Quote

For centuries it has been the custom to speak of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. This familiar usage derives from the seven great kingdoms that held sway over most of Westeros below the Wall during years immediately preceding Aegon's Conquest. Yet even then, the term was far from exact, for one of those "kingdoms" was ruled by a princess rather than a king (Dorne), and Aegon Targaryen's own "kingdom" of Dragonstone was never included in the count.

 

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Titles are seperate. 

Only by a comma.

7 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I think one of the best examples would be that bastard William. He was a king, but was also the vassal of King of France for his holdings there.

All the Norman kings I think. And the early Plantagenets as well. The later ones thought they were kings of France though 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

But this is medieval mumbo jumbo

It is how the medieval system worked.

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

we might as well discuss how the universe revolves around the earth or how we should all be leeching each other.

Not really comparable. Universe revolving around the Earth was disproven, there is nothing to disprove about how the feudal system operated because we know that's how it worked. As for leeches they are still being used today. There is a special lab in Oxford/Cambridge (can't remember which) that uses them to help increase blood flow to certain areas.

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

In actuality, they call the man emperor and their troops are at the empires disposal 

No, they call him King of Hungary and they are at the King of Hungary's disposal. You can tell because these troops remain Habsburg forces during periods were the Emperor was not a Habsburg. It is based on them being King of Hungary.

[Corvo the Crow]

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Harold Godwinson, the last true King of England...

Too bad he couldn't ride to bastard's camp and get a measure of his size like he did with Hardrada.

[Hugorfonics]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

No, they call him King of Hungary and they are at the King of Hungary's disposal. You can tell because these troops remain Habsburg forces during periods were the Emperor was not a Habsburg. It is based on them being King of Hungary.

To his face? I'm pretty sure he's still the emperor. 

I mean we're talking about like a thousand years starting before the Hapsburgs and in between lots of foreign occupations and stuff, but times change and fluctuate. No different then parts of China or Westeros.

[Curled Finger]

On 3/5/2023 at 2:12 PM, King Benedict Justman I said:

The only way the 7K could stay whole at the end is if Daenerys survives and rules, Jon accepts his Targaryen lineage and rules, or somehow Young Griff makes it to the end.

I see the 7K breaking off into pieces, maybe not like it was before the Conquest, but not staying whole. I see the Trident going to the North, and possibly the Vale if Sansa becomes the powerhouse there I think she will. Iron Islands going independent again, or perhaps merging with the Northern Kingdom if Asha leads them. (King Jon x Queen Asha maybe?) The southern Kingdoms would be in disarray and what happens to them is less clear. They have no real loyalty to another kingdom, so they may split up individually again, but the Tyrells were never royalty so it could be hard for them to declare themselves such. The Lannisters will be in disarray so who knows who will lead them. I suspect Tyrion, which would ironic if Tyrion becomes King of the Westerlands considering how Tywin wanted Lannister royalty but hated Tyrion.  
 

I suspect the Stormlands will follow one of Robert’s bastards, likely Edric, and the Martells, if any survive would probably want to go back to being independent.

Never occurred to me that Aegon would make it to the end.  Interesting.  

As to Jon + Asha I say Hell Yah!  Jon deserves to have all the fun in life he can and Asha has proven she can deliver.  Great call.  

We've seen the 7 kingdoms etal try to unite and break off independently.  I don't think they know what they want.  United on the same continent seems like a good idea to me in the long run, but they do have to be on the same page.  These players could make it work if they all make it to the end, that is if Sansa doesn't become an ice queen...oh right, fanfic, sorry.  I want to see something united only because Essos is so untrustworthy and menacing and I don't think Westeros is safe unless it is a big united front against all the nuts out there that would expand and colonize.  Westeros by virtue of the few unique and wonderful minds and spirits we see in Sam, Davos, Brienne, Jamie, Asha, Jon, Dany, Tyrion and Sansa, certainly more by the time the whip comes down proves it can be a better place than what it is.  At least there are no slaves, thralls and some black web nastiness, but no legal owning of people.  That alone puts Westeros centuries ahead of Essos at least.