Did Jon Have a Say on Operation Arya Extraction?

[Lord Varys]

Guys, debating this is really stupid. It really makes no sense to assume Mel would do something like that behind Stannis' back. It is ludicrous to even consider this. I mean ... what the hell would be the point of that? Why would Mel want Mance to mask as fucking Rattleshirt who suddenly turned into an expert on the Others and stuff and who should sit on Stannis' council, work with Jon, etc.?

This would only make sense if we had reason to believe Stannis wanted Mance dead ... and Mel didn't. But that's not the case, as @sweetsunray has pointed out eloquently and in great detail (I actually do like you, even if we rarely agree on things).

And it is obvious that Mance is done now for good as 'king', having lost his kingship first by being defeated by a superior enemy and then yet again when he bent the knee to Stannis and helped fake his own death. No wildling will recognize him as king now.

He is lucky if the majority of his people don't want to kill him now - those who were left abandoned north of the Wall, for instance.

[Springwatch]

On 4/16/2023 at 2:34 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

Mel's only motive to save Mance derives from serving Stannis.

On 4/16/2023 at 5:36 PM, Lord Varys said:

Guys, debating this is really stupid. It really makes no sense to assume Mel would do something like that behind Stannis' back. It is ludicrous to even consider this. I mean ... what the hell would be the point of that? Why would Mel want Mance to mask as fucking Rattleshirt who suddenly turned into an expert on the Others and stuff and who should sit on Stannis' council, work with Jon, etc.?

It's a mistake to think of Mel as Stannis' willing handmaiden. She isn't. From her point of view, they are both servants of Rhllor, but she has a much better idea of the will of god than he does. From her point of view, he makes mistakes and wrongly refuses her advice, e.g. the leeches, not sacrificing Edric. But in the earthly realm, he is a king, and she is only an advisor, so she can't order him, she can only ask - or if he is obstinate, she might go behind his back.

As to motive. Does Mel ever show enthusiasm for Mance's knowledge or control of the wildlings? Or even for Stannis and Jon forming a close team? I don't remember it. The one possible motive she does speak out is the desire to seduce Jon Snow and suck out his life-fires. But he doesn't trust her. The rescue mission for Arya is designed to build that trust, and to herself personally. She says the gift of Mance is from herself. Other motives are possible, of course.

Mel hides Mance as Rattleshirt to save his life from Stannis. The unstable nature of the glamour is manageable if she doesn't keep him at the Wall but sends him out on a mission quickly before he is found out.

Rattleshirt has no place in Stannis' secret war councils, any more than Mance would. They are enemy combatants. Rattleshirt/Mance can be brought to a meeting as a prisoner, to be questioned or handed over as gift to Jon, but not to discuss secrets. Whatever he heard, Stannis is fine to give to people he doesn't trust. Actually Stannis doesn't trust the queen's men much either.

[Springwatch]

On 4/16/2023 at 5:36 PM, Lord Varys said:

This would only make sense if we had reason to believe Stannis wanted Mance dead ... and Mel didn't. But that's not the case, as @sweetsunray has pointed out eloquently and in great detail.

The bolded is the obvious and workable interpretation of what we read in the text, and no argument so far has disproved it.

On 4/16/2023 at 5:36 PM, Lord Varys said:

And it is obvious that Mance is done now for good as 'king', having lost his kingship first by being defeated by a superior enemy and then yet again when he bent the knee to Stannis and helped fake his own death. No wildling will recognize him as king now.

He is lucky if the majority of his people don't want to kill him now - those who were left abandoned north of the Wall, for instance.

Yep.

[Springwatch]

On 4/16/2023 at 2:34 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

Mel told Jon Mance owed Jon his life, because Stannis is not someone to go against the law, but Jon advised him that the law ended at the Wall. That advice to Stannis, who is the one in a dilemma about keeping Mance alive or executing him to uphold the law, is what saved Mance's life. Stannis obviously feels that by staging the fake burning north of the Wall means it's not something that concerns the laws of the Seven Kingdoms.

Stannis knew all that when he said no the first time, and kings are never going to be keen on law-free zones, because the law  is a power of the king. If there are no laws, how can he deliver justice?

(Will read the rest later.)

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 4/16/2023 at 6:25 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

Exactly. This false burning is a lie, a trickery, a deception. And is at the opposite of Stannis' values. How Stannis could expect the Free Folk to believe anything from him after that? Possibly Stannis miscalculated. But he gained eternal distrust of the Free Folk by this act... If he has not been deceived himself.

Stannis has been accepting trickery though, he knows his sword is not light bringer & yet carries it around like it is anyway. He isn't against trickery or deception. 

 

[Springwatch]

On 4/20/2023 at 4:26 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Stannis has been accepting trickery though, he knows his sword is not light bringer & yet carries it around like it is anyway. He isn't against trickery or deception.

Does he know? He's not an expert on religion. Maybe that is what new Lightbringer feels like. Like a sword. Or maybe the right blood sacrifice will appear in time to make it hot.  He leaves the religious technicalities to Mel.

What he has done is accept the role of AA, to save the world from endless night. If he succeeds, that makes him a true AA, and his sword the true sword. Only time will tell.

But for the present, Stannis makes no claims for Lightbringer, and it has every appearance of being a religious artefact. Are religious artefacts lies? No one is deceived by them. Only people who are already devout accept the claims made about them. As is true with Lightbringer also.

ETA

The reactions of both Renly and Stannis support the above argument. Both are interested in Lightbringer. But not in its backstory, because that's just for Rhllorists. They just see a really cool sword, and they want one too.

[Springwatch]

On 4/16/2023 at 2:34 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

Stannis portrays himself as just because people generally want a king that is just, so it's a selling point for any king as justice in the Seven Kingdoms is meant to flow from the king. Varys describes Stannis as a truly just man, but one of the main themes of the story is that the line between vengeance and justice is often blurred. Stannis would bring justice to the realm by removing Cersei's abominations from the throne they have no right to by law, replacing them as the lawful king, and then scouring the court clean of malignant influences like Varys and Littlefinger. Sure, that's on the surface but beneath it there is a strong sense that he is also driven by a want for revenge against all those who have slighted him over the years.

Not so much vengeance and justice blurred, but justice itself (in the books) being an extremely harsh and sometimes unfair thing - the first act of justice we saw was Ned beheading Gared, and since then, justice has hardly ever looked great. Certainly Varys meant no compliment: There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man. So Stannis doing terrible things doesn't mean he's abandoning his core values - he was always like that: utterly without mercy.

On 4/16/2023 at 2:34 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

Justice is the concept that everyone gets what they deserve. In that sense, the throne would be the ultimate justice for Stannis, as far as he is concerned. The law says it is his, not Joffrey or Tommen's or Renly's or anyone else. He always did his duty to Robert, not because he was his brother but because he was his king. He feels he did everything right. He says it's now his duty by law to take the throne, but he clearly feels that he's also earned it and deserves it.

Agree. And that makes three obsessions rolling round Stannis's head: duty, law and justice, and conveniently they all benefit him by putting him on the iron throne. But all that brooding is likely to make his convictions harder I think.

On 4/16/2023 at 2:34 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

His quest for the throne is what drives Stannis, that is his primary goal. The law that says he is king is the law he is most concerned about. Him getting what he deserves is the justice he is most concerned about.

Getting back to our previous conversation now! Ok the throne was his primary goal, but Mel is pulling him away in one direction, and Davos in another. I still trust Davos will be an important influence on Stannis - he's already saved him from the grievous error (presumably) of sacrificing Edric, and reminds him what a king should be. Stannis says, Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.

On 4/16/2023 at 2:34 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

Stannis was iron, strong and inflexible, but he has an arc and he is changing. He emerged from the furnace on the Blackwater as tempered steel. He's far more willing to do whatever is necessary to achieve his goal, and that includes finding a loophole in the law if it is needed or carrying out fake executions.

I still want Stannis to be iron. I'm still wanting the payoff for that. But I've got admit the iron being forged to steel in the Blackwater is a totally terrific idea.

Someone started comparing the likeness of swords to their owners, and managed an interesting list - Gared's ugly but competent sword compared to Waymar's fancy but a bit useless one, for example. The idea works incredibly well for Stannis and Lightbringer. The Lightbringer ceremony took place on a perfectly normal fire of wooden statues, but there were green flames on the sword itself, which most people interpret as wildfire - Mel using the same trick as Thoros - and as we know from the smiths, wildfire ruins swords. And the Blackwater was absolutely the same, common fire and wildfire both, it's so neat and sweet it must be intended. 

The only point remaining is whether Stannis is in a slow state of corruption as some say, or whether he'll break suddenly, which I think is much better. (And for a bonus, it doesn't necessarily end there - Tolkein's Anduril was a broken sword too.)

On 4/16/2023 at 2:34 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

We haven't even touched on his deepest desires and the role of his shadow, but my point is that Stannis is a far deeper character than what is portrayed at the surface.

The justice thing goes all the way through I think, but Stannis does occasionally show depths - admitting he loved Renly was a bit of surprise. And having Mel as his right hand and Davos as his left - wanting both - is definitely the decision of a complex mind. I don't think I understand it even now.