Did Jon Have a Say on Operation Arya Extraction?

[Corvo the Crow]

As many of you would’ve noticed, some esteemed members of our community, namely Dany apoligists and Targ-Aryan enthusiasts, in their hate of all things Jon and Stark constantly bring up the matter of Manse Raider masquerading as Bag of Shi… Bones going to Winterfell to escort who they think is Arya to the Wall and accuse him with all sorts of things. However, the way I see it with all we’ve read in the books on how their world works Jon had no say in the matter what so ever. 

1) as an oathbreaker of the Watch one would expect it is the LC’s duty and right to punish him, however in the very first chapter of a recurring character we see that instead of sending him to be punished by LC Jeor, it is the good Lord Eddard who deals with the deserter and in the name of the king so it is within the king’s rights to deal with these.

2)Mance is an enemy combatant and head of state of a foreign nation invading Stannis’ lands and was captured in battle and made a prisoner of his, again Stannis’ to deal with. 

3), Bag of Bones, the piece of bonemeal that Mance poses as, is also Stannis’ prisoner to deal with and bag of bones who is actually Mance is given to Mel’s care by the king.

4), Mel is under king Stannis’ command and acts in his interests.

5), Those spearwives are also Stannis’ captives from the battle.

6) Stannis is in open war with the Boltons, vassals of the inbred Lannister king claiming to be Baratheon. 
 

7) Boltons have already used underhanded tactics with the Karstark contingent in Stannis’ army.

I can add more but leave it at 7 for Seven who are one for sweet @Craving Peaches loves them so.

 

In conclusion from what I see Jon had no rights, say, or responsibility in the matter. It was all Mel’s responsibility who was acting on behalf of her king, Stannis, who was already at war with Boltons, who already used underhanded tactics of the lowest cunning.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Craving Peaches]

Yes and also Jon didn't even want them to go to Winterfell and grab 'Arya' specifically because this would annoy Ramsay, they were supposed to go pick her up at Long Lake as per the vision or something.

[Alester Florent]

Jon might have had the (informal) power to stop them. If he'd said "no, don't do this, it's a terrible idea, let her die" then Mel might have listened. But he has no ability to countermand Stannis's order officially.

[Hugorfonics]

Mance Rayder is a sworn brother of the Nights Watch, his lord and commander is Jon.

7 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Jon might have had the (informal) power to stop them. If he'd said "no, don't do this, it's a terrible idea, let her die" then Mel might have listened. But he has no ability to countermand Stannis's order officially.

Sure he does! He's got the men, to say the least. This is Snow House here. Also he tells Stannis no all the time when it falls under Jon's jurisdiction.

Also Stannis' official order was to burn Mance alive, which didn't happen

[Corvo the Crow]

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes and also Jon didn't even want them to go to Winterfell and grab 'Arya' specifically because this would annoy Ramsay, they were supposed to go pick her up at Long Lake as per the vision or something.

Exactly. It was a simple escort mission -that Jon had no say over- because ever since Bolton’s actions, girls could no longer travel up and down the king’s road in their naming day suits, not that I’d recommend such a thing with a Winter, but still.

[Corvo the Crow]

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Mance Rayder is a sworn brother of the Nights Watch, his lord and commander is Jon.

Uh-huh, and who was Gared’s, Ned Stark?

[Hugorfonics]

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Uh-huh, and who was Gared’s

The old bear

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Ned Stark

He was just a cowboy. Shoot first, question later. The Yosemite Sam way

[Corvo the Crow]

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

He was just a cowboy. Shoot first, question later. The Yosemite Sam way

He was acting on behalf of the king so it’s apparent when the king is involved it can override LC.

[Hugorfonics]

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

He was acting on behalf of the king so it’s apparent when the king is involved it can override LC.

That's not apparent. What's apparent is these dagnabbit lords can do what they want.

Robb and Stannis did feel like they could free Jon from his oath but idk if they really could. The laws of the king changes every other wedding, the NW oaths are older then time.

And Stannis ordered the execution of Mance, allowing him to live if anything is overriding his rule

[Nevets]

Without Jon's approval, the mission is not going forward.  We know from Melisandre's POV that she wants Arya rescued in order to gain Jon's trust so that he will be more willing to listen to her.  So she's unlikely to go against Jon's express wishes.

So at the very least, Jon has to sign off on it.  She also needs his help to get the spearwives.  But the mission Jon signed off on was to Long Lake.

The Jon haters seem to think that Jon sent Mance to Winterfell.  I do not believe that for a second.  We know from Jon's earlier thoughts that he felt he could do nothing as long as Arya was in Bolton control.  So a deliberate order is not on.  Though it is possible he gave vague or poorly worded orders ("get my sister for me", for example) that caused Mance to go to Winterfell.

Of course, once Mance is caught in Winterfell, Jon has no real choice but to own up to it.  Bolton wouldn't believe his denials in any case.  But he certainly didn't intend to provoke a conflict.

[SeanF]

I mostly agree with the O/P, but would add this.

Jon is the commanding officer at the Wall.  Assuming, for the sake of argument, that he has the power to execute Mance, he has no obligation to do so.

If he concludes that Mance is of more value alive than dead, he can decide to spare him.

Mance, like Janos Slynt, has committed a capital offence.  In the case of Slynt, no useful purpose is served by keeping him alive, and indeed, sparing him woukd sow discord in the Watch.

[Corvo the Crow]

18 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

That's not apparent. What's apparent is these dagnabbit lords can do what they want.

 

Nope. 

Quote

“He was the fourth this year,” Ned said grimly. “The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him.” He sighed. “Ben writes that the strength of the Night’s Watch is down below a thousand. It’s not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well.”

Ned has gotten hold of 4 deserters and has not notified Jeor of the happenings? If Ned has no right here, Jeor has not informed king that Eddard is breaching? Sorry but no. I genuinely set you apart in the belief that you are not part of the hate band, but I also really wonder your posts on things that are so apparent.

22 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Robb and Stannis did feel like they could free Jon from his oath but idk if they really could. The laws of the king changes every other wedding, the NW oaths are older then time.

 

Who holds power over oaths? Once Jon has become the LC, he practically owns the Wall and the Watch, nay, he is the enbodiment of the Wall and the Watch. He is free to do whatever he wants to the extent that he doesn't displease the king or maybe even more importantly, Northmen. If Jon declares himself NK come again and Stannis (as he is the only relevant monarch here) approves, says "yeah be whatever you want, name yourself emperor of the unknown universe for all you want I'm fine with as long as you don't claim kingship of Westeros" then Jon is the second Night's King. Practically all king does with freeing him from oaths especially after he's become LC, is giving him a free pass, saying they'll acknowledge him a free man and won't cut off his head for an oathbreaker.

30 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And Stannis ordered the execution of Mance, allowing him to live if anything is overriding his rule

Stannis burned the man he had to burn, for all the world to see. 

[Corvo the Crow]

13 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Without Jon's approval, the mission is not going forward.  We know from Melisandre's POV that she wants Arya rescued in order to gain Jon's trust so that he will be more willing to listen to her.  So she's unlikely to go against Jon's express wishes.

 

Yeah, he may influence her, asking her not to do so and she may decide not to upset Stannis' lil' special snowflake that he so loves, teasing beheadings and all. But Jon has no authority over her. Decision is hers and hers alone. 

 

15 minutes ago, Nevets said:

So at the very least, Jon has to sign off on it.  She also needs his help to get the spearwives.  But the mission Jon signed off on was to Long Lake.

 

Nope, he doesn't, he has no say. Spearwives are also Stannis' prisoners. Having left with little manpower after Stannis has left, he may easily obstruct her if he so chooses but again spearwives are not his to give.

18 minutes ago, Nevets said:

The Jon haters seem to think that Jon sent Mance to Winterfell.  I do not believe that for a second.  We know from Jon's earlier thoughts that he felt he could do nothing as long as Arya was in Bolton control.  So a deliberate order is not on.  Though it is possible he gave vague or poorly worded orders ("get my sister for me", for example) that caused Mance to go to Winterfell.

 

Won't be orders, even if he orders her around it is useless as he has no authority over Mel to order her, he may as well  have ordered Tommen to acknowledge his bastardry and take the black while at it, who knows he may even prevent much bloodshed further on.

 

[sifth]

It’s convoluted, let’s be honest. GRRM loves to push and twist rules in unexpected ways. 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Ned has gotten hold of 4 deserters and has not notified Jeor of the happenings? If Ned has no right here, Jeor has not informed king that Eddard is breaching?

Obviously lords are allowed to execute almost anybody for almost any reason. When it comes to deserters they're downright giddy.

Doesn't mean they have to or that they can pardon.

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I genuinely set you apart in the belief that you are not part of the hate band, but I also really wonder your posts on things that are so apparent.

Mance said the words, his commander is therefore Jon. It's as simple as it could be

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Who holds power over oaths? Once Jon has become the LC, he practically owns the Wall and the Watch, nay, he is the enbodiment of the Wall and the Watch. He is free to do whatever he wants to the extent that he doesn't displease the king or maybe even more importantly, Northmen. If Jon declares himself NK come again and Stannis (as he is the only relevant monarch here) approves, says "yeah be whatever you want, name yourself emperor of the unknown universe for all you want I'm fine with as long as you don't claim kingship of Westeros" then Jon is the second Night's King. Practically all king does with freeing him from oaths especially after he's become LC, is giving him a free pass, saying they'll acknowledge him a free man and won't cut off his head for an oathbreaker.

The only objection the King or the North or whomever can give is steel. Jon is his own lord. However steel is also a pretty persuasive argument.

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Stannis burned the man he had to burn, for all the world to see. 

Why would Stannis be in on this ruse? 

 

I really like Mance, and Stannis. Jon is pretty cool too. But I don't like the NW or the wall or the oaths, so I don't really have a problem with Jon disregarding rules like that.

But of course he is.

[Lord Varys]

Go back to read the story.

Mance as Rattleshirt is specifically handed to Jon's care by Stannis. This is even reiterated later. And Rattleshirt-Mance even swears himself to Jon Snow. He is under his command now, and he acts under his command. Melisandre no longer has any sway over Rattleshirt-Mance and she knows that.

That is why Melisandre drops the glamor and reveals Mance's true identity to Jon. Because she wants to make a suggestion to him he then signs off on which then, in turn, will cause him to believe Mel can be relied on, is on his side, can be trusted.

Mel promises to Jon that Mance can bring back Arya safe, he believes her, and allows himself to be persuaded to send Mance and his women on their mission.

This whole thing only happened because he authorized it.

And it is clear that Mance already intended or thought he would have to infiltrate Winterfell because that's the sole reason why he asked for the women.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Go back to read the story.

Mance as Rattleshirt is specifically handed to Jon's care by Stannis. This is even reiterated later. And Rattleshirt-Mance even swears himself to Jon Snow. He is under his command now, and he acts under his command. Melisandre no longer has any sway over Rattleshirt-Mance and she knows that.

That is why Melisandre drops the glamor and reveals Mance's true identity to Jon. Because she wants to make a suggestion to him he then signs off on which then, in turn, will cause him to believe Mel can be relied on, is on his side, can be trusted.

Mel promises to Jon that Mance can bring back Arya safe, he believes her, and allows himself to be persuaded to send Mance and his women on their mission.

This whole thing only happened because authorized it.

And it is clear that Mance already intended or thought he would have to infiltrate Winterfell because that's the sole reason why he asked for the women.

Yea, the text makes it clear as day, that Stannis knows that Mance is alive.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Perhaps Stannis wanted to remove Bolton's hostage? 

In Jon II, Dance 7 we have Richard Horpe and Justin Massey depart Castle Black, heading south for destination(s) unknown. We see them return in Jon IV, Dance 17, but we are never told where they went. I believe Stannis dispatched them to treat with Houses Umber and Karstark.

Keep in mind that We learn that Stannis has dispatched his Hand to treat with Manderly. The only positive responses he received from the northern lords were from Mors Umber and Arnolf Karstark. So it would make sense to send two captains to treat with those two houses.

Upon their return we learn that Arnolf will fight for Stannis, as will Mors Umber but not Hothor Umber. We also learn that Arnolf is urging Stannis to march on the Deadfort while Ramsay marches on Moat Cailin. We later learn that this was a trap, and we know that Arnolf and Hothor meet with Ramsay at the Dreadfort, apparently to plan it. So Reek I, Dance 12 should precede Jon II, Dance 7 on the actual timeline of events. 

Apparently, Melisandre wanted Jon to send Mance to rescue his sister in order to gain Jon’s trust, but the especially curious issue here was that Melisandre saw Arya riding north, east of Long Lake, and Mance said he had a ploy in mind, asking for a handful of spearwives to help him, suggesting he knew that he would be going to Winterfell not the eastern shore of Long Lake. Later we found out with the arrival of Alys Karstark at Castle Black, that Mance did not even bother to look for Arya, and Jon began to suspect that Melisandre had some other task for Mance. He ended up thinking about Melisandre’s secret agenda at least twice more.

Disguised as Abel, an echo of Mance’s hero, Bael the Bard, the Mance wanted to know how Theon captured Winterfell. Clearly, Mance was attempting to find some way for Stannis to capture Winterfell. He also wanted Theon to show him the crypts. While Mance was apparently unable to find some way for Stannis to capture Winterfell by some trick, his spearwives began murdering men to fan the flames of animosity between House Frey and the Northmen, especially House Manderly. Presumably, Mance intended to hide in the crypts as Bael had done.

But why was Mance so eager, desperate even, to help the presumed Arya to escape? He did not seem to care about Theon, but he needed Theon to get the presumed Arya out. Did he believe that he had stumbled upon Arya Stark at Winterfell, and that he needed to get her out of the castle to fulfill Melisandre’s vision to foster good relations with Jon and to promote fidelity between the Free Folk and the North? Is that why he apparently sacrificed himself to free the presumed Arya? Theon was quite convinced that Abel would be caught and flayed by Ramsay, and that fate was apparently confirmed in the pink letter
 

Spoiler

and in the Theon spoiler chapter from Winds, the events of which were confirmed to have occurred before Jon received the pink letter,

and foreshadowed in The Dornishman's Wife. 

Interestingly, one of the spearwives, Rowan, seemed to hold Theon in great contempt. This alone would not have been suspect, but she also took great umbrage at Theon’s use of House Stark’s words, suggesting she was actually a daughter of the North rather than a native of the Free Folk, although there did seem to be a grudging respect, or awe, for House Stark among the Free Folk. Rowan, tall and skinny, too lean and leathery to be called pretty, but attractive with auburn hair, could very well have been the daughter Mors lost during a wilding raid. 

Perhaps Mance stoped at Last Hearth with Rowan on his way to Winterfell. Perhaps Rowan convinced her father that he should not be demanding Mance’s skull for a drinking cup after all. 

Mors later arrived at Winterfell. He did not attack, but he started blowing war horns, presumably to instill fear in the defenders, but possibly to alert agents on the inside, and notice that was precisely when Mance decided it was time to bug out.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Jon was responsible for that Arya extraction mission. He released Mance Rayder and ordered Edd to bring selected women to help him.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 3/8/2023 at 11:05 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Mance Rayder is a sworn brother of the Nights Watch, his lord and commander is Jon.

Sure he does! He's got the men, to say the least. This is Snow House here. Also he tells Stannis no all the time when it falls under Jon's jurisdiction.

Also Stannis' official order was to burn Mance alive, which didn't happen

So I agree. He could have said no & actually did when he thought it was ole bag of bones going after Arya. I think the question is does that make him culpable? 

I think not. He didn't give any commands to Mance, Mance isn't his man, Mel did not ask Jon's permission (though she was trying to get him to trust her by doing this so it would have been pointless if Jon was against it) nor is Mance or Mel under Jon's command. 

I agree he could punish Mance for desserting & maybe should have but it's an odd situation right? Because up until 5 seconds before that Jon thought Mance was punished, he put an arrow in him. I don't think it would have been within Jon's rights to execute Mance once he found out he was alive because he was, by then, under Stans command. The only person in the realm who came to the aid of the watch when they asked for help. It would have been detrimental to the watch for Jon to piss Stannis off that bad.