Would the Essos Storyline be more interesting if the Villains had more Depth?

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Yeah my impression is that hes genuine in wanting peace.

Yes, that would be a refreshing change and subvert expectations in a good way.

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

I don't really agree with this.

"There may be another choice. The Yunkai'i can be persuaded to allow all your freedmen to remain free, I believe, if Your Worship will agree that the Yellow City may trade and train slaves unmolested from this day forth. No more blood need flow."

"Save for the blood of those slaves that the Yunkai'i will trade and train," Dany said, but she recognized the truth in his words even so. It may be that is the best end we can hope for. (ADWD, Daenerys IV)

 

When Daenerys finally turned away, Ser Barristan stood near her, wrapped in his white cloak against the chill of evening. "Can we make a fight of this?" she asked him.

"Men can always fight, Your Grace. Ask rather if we can win. Dying is easy, but victory comes hard. (ADWD, Daenerys V)

I’m thinking more of an earlier point, when she still had the elite at her mercy.

[Oana_Mika]

Just now, SeanF said:

I’m thinking more of an earlier point, when she still had the elite at her mercy.

You mean when she did not kill them?

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Oana_Mika said:

You mean when she did not kill them?

When she spared them, and admitted them to her councils;  heard complaints from masters and freedmen on a 50/50 basis, despite the disparity in their respective numbers;  when she took hostages, but could never bring herself to harm them in retaliation for continued murders of freedmen;  when she let them keep their wealth and estates, intact, and imposed only a light blood tax upon them.  She’s pulling her punches the whole time.

I could not imagine any lower class leader acting similarly.  Nor a more experienced leader.

[astarkchoice]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

When she spared them, and admitted them to her councils;  heard complaints from masters and freedmen on a 50/50 basis, despite the disparity in their respective numbers;  when she took hostages, but could never bring herself to harm them in retaliation for continued murders of freedmen;  when she let them keep their wealth and estates, intact, and imposed only a light blood tax upon them.  She’s pulling her punches the whole time.

I could not imagine any lower class leader acting similarly.  Nor a more experienced leader.

Yep i think we can expect the dany that comes back from the wilderness embracing the 'fire and blood' moto of her family wont be pulling any punches

The dany that comes back is gonna be feeding drogon a lot!!

[Oana_Mika]

12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

When she spared them, and admitted them to her councils;  heard complaints from masters and freedmen on a 50/50 basis, despite the disparity in their respective numbers;  when she took hostages, but could never bring herself to harm them in retaliation for continued murders of freedmen;  when she let them keep their wealth and estates, intact, and imposed only a light blood tax upon them.  She’s pulling her punches the whole time.

I could not imagine any lower class leader acting similarly.  Nor a more experienced leader.

I think this more because she is compassionate, not because she values the lives of the masters more than the lives of the freedmen. After all, she demanded 163 meereense leaders for the 163 crucified children. If this does not say she views them equally, then IDK...

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Oana_Mika said:

I think this more because she is compassionate, not because she values the lives of the masters more than the lives of the freedmen. After all, she demanded 163 meereense leaders for the 163 crucified children. If this does not say she views them equally, then IDK...

Yes, she is compassionate.  And, she’s a lot more enlightened than most of her class.  But, it’s also very hard to shake off what one has been raised to believe.

[Oana_Mika]

18 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Yes, she is compassionate.  And, she’s a lot more enlightened than most of her class.  But, it’s also very hard to shake off what one has been raised to believe.

“On the ADWD cover for Brazil, I put Daenerys at the top of the stairs of the meereenese pyramid. I had undoubtedly been, unconsciously, influenced by the series. And George told me that Daenerys wants equality for everyone, she wants to be at the same level as her people, so I had her climb down to keep it consistent” - Marc Simonetti

[csuszka1948]

14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The difference is that Jon is personally leading wildlings against the Boltons, whereas Dany has left Meereen entirely. Her people are going to fight & die without her, which includes her not being there to do the good things you pointed out earlier. Jon is not rejecting his earlier efforts at shoring up the NW because a wolf does not count turnips.

 

 

 

It is pretty much identical. Jon is leaving the NW (his responsibilities) behind to destroy the 'evil Boltons', while Dany wants to leave Meereen (her previous responsibility) behind, destroy the 'evil slavers' and then go to Westeros. Jon also chooses the path of violence instead of 'planting trees' - which (in his case) is maintaining the peace between the NW and the wildlings and shoring up the defences of the Wall.

[SeanF]

12 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

It is pretty much identical. Jon is leaving the NW (his responsibilities) behind to destroy the 'evil Boltons', while Dany wants to leave Meereen (her previous responsibility) behind, destroy the 'evil slavers' and then go to Westeros. Jon also chooses the path of violence instead of 'planting trees' - which (in his case) is maintaining the peace between the NW and the wildlings and shoring up the defences of the Wall.

The path towards war was already chosen, once Stannis came North.  Once the Watch hosted him at the Wall, the institution ceased to be neutral.

And, to that extent, the parallel with Meereen works.  Regardless of whether the Yunkish were sincere or not, the path of war was chosen once the Volantenes set sail.

In fact, I'd argue that Jon and Dany both acted responsibly.  The one, in answering a direct threat from Ramsay Bolton, the other, in flying Drogon out of the Pit, rather than fleeing the scene.

It was not so much that Jon and Daenerys chose war.  Rather, war chose them.

[csuszka1948]

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm undecided on the issue. On the one hand, he seems suspicious because he seemed to really want Daenerys to eat them. On the other hand, surely he would have known Daenerys didn't really like locusts? And this assumes Daenerys was the Target.

 

Hizdahr is simply too obvious of a suspect with openly asking Dany to eat the locusts - similarly to Tyrion in the case of Joffrey's murder with openly serving him the poisoned wine.

From an outsider POV, Tyrion is  even more suspicious - he and Joffrey hate each other, he was openly humiliated by Joffrey and had the opportunity to slip something to his wine and he was previously heard contemplating 'disposing Joffrey' (with Bronn) and threatening Cersei with raping Tommen. 

Hizdahr also didn't prepare a good patsy - he tried to accuse Quentyn, but it was a horrible attempt. In contrast, the Shavepate has good patsies - if Hizdahr is poisoned, he can accuse Quentyn who wanted to marry Dany and if anyone else is poisoned, he can accuse Hizdahr with trying to poison Dany. 

If Dany died of the poisoned locusts in the arena, the freedmen would have blamed him, Barristan would have realised that Hizdahr asked them to eat the locusts and the Brazen Breasts surrounding them (mostly controlled by the Shavepate) would have arrested him. Violence would have likely erupted in the arena and many of the slave masters would have been killed and the peace shattered.

[SeanF]

10 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Hizdahr is simply too obvious of a suspect with openly asking Dany to eat the locusts - similarly to Tyrion in the case of Joffrey's murder with openly serving him the poisoned wine.

From an outsider POV, Tyrion is  even more suspicious - he and Joffrey hate each other, he was openly humiliated by Joffrey and had the opportunity to slip something to his wine and he was previously heard contemplating 'disposing Joffrey' (with Bronn) and threatening Cersei with raping Tommen. 

Hizdahr also didn't prepare a good patsy - he tried to accuse Quentyn, but it was a horrible attempt. In contrast, the Shavepate has good patsies - if Hizdahr is poisoned, he can accuse Quentyn who wanted to marry Dany and if anyone else is poisoned, he can accuse Hizdahr with trying to poison Dany. 

If Dany died of the poisoned locusts in the arena, the freedmen would have blamed him, Barristan would have realised that Hizdahr asked them to eat the locusts and the Brazen Breasts surrounding them (mostly controlled by the Shavepate) would have arrested him. Violence would have likely erupted in the arena and many of the slave masters would have been killed and the peace shattered.

I don't believe there's any possibility that the Shavepate wanted Daenerys dead.  She's essntial for the anti-slavery forces.  He may have wanted someone close to her killed, in order to force her hand, and break the peace.

[csuszka1948]

19 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The path towards war was already chosen, once Stannis came North.  Once the Watch hosted him at the Wall, the institution ceased to be neutral.

No, only when Jon decided to send Mance to rescue Arya. The Boltons wouldn't have accepted that their bride is held by the Watch.

19 minutes ago, SeanF said:

And, to that extent, the parallel with Meereen works.  Regardless of whether the Yunkish were sincere or not, the path of war was chosen once the Volantenes set sail.

In fact, I'd argue that Jon and Dany both acted responsibly.  The one, in answering a direct threat from Ramsay Bolton, the other, in flying Drogon out of the Pit, rather than fleeing the scene.

It was not so much that Jon and Daenerys chose war.  Rather, war chose them.

Jon definitely didn't. Marching to Winterfell with a wildling army (+sending most of the Watch to Hardhome) is foolish, no Northern lord would have supported them. He should have sent back a raven and negotiated (with offering to give up Selyse and Shireen) or prepared for a battle close to the Wall. He could have prepared a defense better there, would have more men and support and many Northern lords wouldn't be inclined to go battle with the Watch. 

[csuszka1948]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I don't believe there's any possibility that the Shavepate wanted Daenerys dead.  She's essntial for the anti-slavery forces.  He may have wanted someone close to her killed, in order to force her hand, and break the peace.

I agree that having Dany killed wasn't the most preferable option for him. 

However, he has just lost his position and saw Dany as someone who favors his enemies (Hizdahr) over him and expected this to continue further. He is mostly out for himself, cast his lot with Dany but she serves him no further (unless he convinces her that Hizdahr is her enemy).

Also, her death doesn't necessarily mean that the anti-slavery cause is lost. We see that Dany is essentially 'dead' and still the anti-slavery forces can win (ignoring the Volantene, who the Shavepate didn't know about).

[Alester Florent]

6 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

No, only when Jon decided to send Mance to rescue Arya. The Boltons wouldn't have accepted that their bride is held by the Watch.

Jon definitely didn't. Marching to Winterfell with a wildling army (+sending most of the Watch to Hardhome) is foolish, no Northern lord would have supported them. He should have sent back a raven and negotiated (with offering to give up Selyse and Shireen) or prepared for a battle close to the Wall. He could have prepared a defense better there, would have more men and support and many Northern lords wouldn't be inclined to go battle with the Watch. 

You don't think that Ned Stark's last surviving son (and possible heir of the King in the North!) coming after the Boltons with an army at his back would have houses like the Glovers, Mormonts, Cerwyns, Manderlys, etc. rallying to his side? And what happens if he offers Ramsay a deal to play for time, where he gives up Selyse and Shireen, and Ramsay accepts? Does he arrest his innocent guests and hand them over to a sadistic murder-torturer?

[SeanF]

26 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

No, only when Jon decided to send Mance to rescue Arya. The Boltons wouldn't have accepted that their bride is held by the Watch.

Jon definitely didn't. Marching to Winterfell with a wildling army (+sending most of the Watch to Hardhome) is foolish, no Northern lord would have supported them. He should have sent back a raven and negotiated (with offering to give up Selyse and Shireen) or prepared for a battle close to the Wall. He could have prepared a defense better there, would have more men and support and many Northern lords wouldn't be inclined to go battle with the Watch. 

Well, we don't know what Jon's exact battle plans were.  

I've not much doubt that the Boltons' support would have collapsed, if Jon openly defied them, albeit, Jon doesn't know just how shaky their position is.

And, there is another parallel with Dany and the slavers.  Like the slavers, the Boltons are much weaker than they appear from the outside.

[csuszka1948]

53 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

You don't think that Ned Stark's last surviving son (and possible heir of the King in the North!) coming after the Boltons with an army at his back would have houses like the Glovers, Mormonts, Cerwyns, Manderlys, etc. rallying to his side? And what happens if he offers Ramsay a deal to play for time, where he gives up Selyse and Shireen, and Ramsay accepts? Does he arrest his innocent guests and hand them over to a sadistic murder-torturer?

 

No. The wildlings are more hated than the Boltons in the North. If it becomes known that Jon has sent the King Beyond the North, a known oathbreaker to free Arya and comes with an army of wildlings to free him (a good way to frame his attack), no one would back him.

Besides, the Boltons would consolidate their power if they genuinely defeated Stannis. As far as Jon knows, almost all Stark loyalists (mountain clans, Mormonts, Glovers) perished with him. 

[BlackLightning]

The Essos storyline is very interesting to me.

Not so much in the third book but definitely in the first, second and fifth books.

 

That said, the Essos storyline would be more interesting if there were more POVs. Just one more...probably someone from Yi-Ti, Leng or Asshai who has slaves and explores deep philosophies and ancient magics dating back to the First Long Night. Let them hear about Daenerys and the dragons from afar and decides to join her...only to be disappointed or confused on her anti-slavery beliefs.

[astarkchoice]

Yeah overall the slavers seem to have more  depth and brains  than they are credited with.

We already covred astopor in this thread

Their battle plans in yunkai and mereen (1st siege) seemed.to be solid , practical and achievable , danys victories over them there seem to be a combo of luck and good tactics

Their shadow war is of course well orgainsied.

Its just the 2nd siege where victory is astopor and then a seeming easy win in mereen seems to have them tossing dicipline out the window and all going ofr excess and jostling for leadership/praise.

Now id adnit Depth wise it would be interesting to learn more from the ghiscari perspective of the valyrian wars, how  the dothraki as former enemy exterminating them  went to valuable slave gathering  asset, their religion and its ties to the fighting pits , any subtle differences in why each city ended up with its own niche, the pyramids signifigance, why new ghis alone has such formidable might...who are their enemies requiring such mobilisation? ,  what effect does having cultures across the globe being in mereen as fighters have on the city, what do they know of westeros ? Of yi ti? Of ib? Of quarth? Their economic ties to each region  Why do unsullied have their own religion?  Etc etc etc but too much info and i suppose the east loses the exotic  foriegn feel and danys 'fish out of water' experience is lost a bit

 

[SeanF]

WRT the siege of Meereen.  

Camping in a plague spot of their own making seems stupid on the face of it, but perhaps can be explained by a lack of knowledge of germ theory.

The siege is pretty half-hearted, at least until the end of ADWD.  That could be explained by a real worry about urban fighting (8,000 Unsullied, plus thousands of freedmen could put up a ferocious defence).  A prolonged effort to starve out the defenders could see the besieging army starve first (quite often, besiegers ran out of food before the defenders did, and had to march away).

The rotating command is idiotic, as are the soldiers of Yunkai.  In fact, it's stupid that the generals of New Ghis, with six legions of well-trained soldiers, are not taking the lead in this.