Speculation: Swords, Shards

[Hippocras]

Hi all. There is an article series over on the WOTW website that those of you who enjoy speculating on what might happen in the remaining ASOIAF books might appreicate. The latest article deals with Lightbringer and the Valyrian steel swords.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Hippocras

[Curled Finger]

That was a good read.  Thank you for the tip.  I'm always up for a VS swords discussion.  

The article deep dives into Ice and an unknowable history of the swords and their role in ruining at least the Targaryen family.  Maybe.  Truth is we don't know what these things were made for.  It is coincidental that they seem to be fashioned after dragon glass in a way?  Or did the Valyrians have a specific intent in making them?  

There are so many swords and heroes in ASOIAF that I'm not sure there needs to be more to Lightbringer than Dawn.  It's already there and isn't VS.  Let's see what Dawn does before we just toss it out in favor of something or one else being Lightbringer.  

Is Ice the end all beat all VS sword?  Maybe.  Then again it was Ned's sword and that alone makes it special to readers.  That Tywin had the nerve to appropriate and change Ice is appalling.  Still, OK & WW are Ice...or are they?  We see both swords glow blue in Jamie's dream.  What if OK & WW don't work like the other VS swords do?  We have parallels between Jon and Brienne with their swords.  They both claim the swords make them better or do the fighting for them.  Oh dear, what does one do with a sentient blade?  Longclaw has given steady performance throughout the series.  Did OK fail Brienne?  

I am hoping that in seeing Dawn in TWOW (Oh please let this finally happen!) we will see what makes this odd sword so special.  This is the one that has been around forever.  Perhaps when Darkstar takes the sword or finds Ned Dayne with it we will get some understanding of the role of Sword of the Morning.  Seems to be a big deal.  But what does a Sword of the Morning actually do?  Bring light maybe?  

[Hippocras]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 

I think Dawn is meant as a nod to Excalibur and Arthurian legend. It is special, certainly, because of the suggestion it was made from a meteor. A clever way to mingle the myth of the sword in the stone with science fiction. "Meteoric iron has been used historically to forge blades..." (wikipedia)

As for Lightbringer, I think Dawn is a red herring. Special enough to make people believe it is the real thing, until the real thing is unmistakable. There is no reason why this sword would be able to carry the narrative weight of this particular story at this time because it is entirely disconnected from the Song of Ice and Fire current events.

 

As for Ice, I believe the article proposes an eventual merger between a part of Ice and a part of a Targ sword. It was clear that an argument for Ice as, at this point in time, more special than any other Valyrian steel sword is weak except in terms of narrative weight. It is what happens TO and WITH the sword that leads to it BECOMING more special.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Hippocras

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

As for Lightbringer, I think Dawn is a red herring. Special enough to make people believe it is the real thing, until the real thing is unmistakable. There is no reason why this sword would be able to carry the narrative weight of this particular story at this time because it is entirely disconnected from the Song of Ice and Fire current events.

As for Ice, I believe the article proposes an eventual merger between a part of Ice and a part of a Targ sword. It was clear that an argument for Ice as, at this point in time, more special than any other Valyrian steel sword is weak except in terms of narrative weight. It is what happens TO and WITH the sword that leads to it BECOMING more special.

I thought Dawn was too obvious for a long time.  I get the feeling now that Dawn is something else.  A key maybe, I don't know.  It's been evident to me from my 1st read these swords are a big deal.  It's wonderful to have some ideas about the actual making of VS and mention of an ancient Dragon Steel.  These swords are so important for the battles coming.  

There are a lot of ideas about Ice and Longclaw and lost history of the North.  I would not be surprised to find that Ice had a really important purpose that can't be completed because it is no longer Ice.  Or not, swords do seem to drop in and out in Westeros.  The Azor Ahai tale seems to be about sacrifice among many other things that definitely bring Jon Snow to mind if you are looking for some one to be Lightbringer.  Personally, I think all the heroes will be lightbringers.  Jon is the embodiment of hero, particularly in his harsh environs.  Of course he is the sword, but so is Dany and maybe Bran, Jamie, Brienne...

It appears you have 2 sets of Ice and Targ swords now.  I wonder if it matters who wields them?  Curious that Jon has (or had?) Longclaw.  It is the match to Blackfyre and I have to think Widows Wail is a lot closer to Darksister than anything else.  To be honest, I thought the writer of the article was being cute and talking about Jon in terms of Lightbringer, not actual swords.  It's something to think about though.  

In the end I have to agree with you, it is what happens to and with them that makes these swords so special.  

[LongRider]

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

We have parallels between Jon and Brienne with their swords.  They both claim the swords make them better or do the fighting for them.  Oh dear, what does one do with a sentient blade?  Longclaw has given steady performance throughout the series.  Did OK fail Brienne?  

Did Longclaw fail Jon?  He tried to use Longclaw during the Attack of the Stewards ^TM  and was unable to do so.  Why?  Did Jon fumble?  Was he unable to grab hold due to the shock and adrenaline of what was happening?  Or did Longclaw not want to be drawn?

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

Did Longclaw fail Jon?  He tried to use Longclaw during the Attack of the Stewards ^TM  and was unable to do so.  Why?  Did Jon fumble?  Was he unable to grab hold due to the shock and adrenaline of what was happening?  Or did Longclaw not want to be drawn?

That's GREAT!  Never even considered that.  Always took it Jon was weak or couldn't physically draw it.  Hope Heartsbane gives Tarly the finger!

[LongRider]

59 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That's GREAT!  Never even considered that.  Always took it Jon was weak or couldn't physically draw it.  Hope Heartsbane gives Tarly the finger!

My thoughts are, as you know I don't think Jon is dead, but he needs to go through a near death experience, like Bran did, to be able to meet his destiny (whatever that will be) and Longclaw was just doing its part.

[Castellan]

15 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Hi all. There is an article series over on the WOTW website that those of you who enjoy speculating on what might happen in the remaining ASOIAF books might appreicate. The latest article deals with Lightbringer and the Valyrian steel swords.

ahem what website is that?

[Hippocras]

2 hours ago, Castellan said:

ahem what website is that?

Look Into the Flames: The Female Line of House Targaryen | Watchers on the Wall | A Game of Thrones/House of the Dragon Community for Breaking News, Casting, and Commentary

This is the previous article, same series. Not sure on this site's policy for posting links is all.

And the latest one on swords:

Look Into the Flames: Swords and Shards | Watchers on the Wall | A Game of Thrones/House of the Dragon Community for Breaking News, Casting, and Commentary

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Hippocras

[Castellan]

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Look Into the Flames: The Female Line of House Targaryen | Watchers on the Wall | A Game of Thrones/House of the Dragon Community for Breaking News, Casting, and Commentary

This is the previous article, same series. Not sure on this site's policy for posting links is all.

And the latest one on swords:

Look Into the Flames: Swords and Shards | Watchers on the Wall | A Game of Thrones/House of the Dragon Community for Breaking News, Casting, and Commentary

 

Thanks!

[Curled Finger]

I wonder which Ice and which Targaryen sword would have to combine (and how!) to make Lightbringer.  

[Hippocras]

11 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I wonder which Ice and which Targaryen sword would have to combine (and how!) to make Lightbringer.  

That is definitely the fun question in all of this!

My guess: Widow's Wail and Blackfyre seem to be the two most likely to cross paths in the near future, in ways that might generate a reforging. Widow's Wail is either already stolen from KL or will be, and from there will head South, while Blackfyre is either on its way to Aegon or already there. Storm's End seems to be the destination for both, and in a context of war. Cersei would gladly melt Blackfyre if she defeats Aegon, and Aegon would gladly melt Widow's Wail if he defeats the Lannister forces. Meanwhile if Dany eventually fights Aegon she would have reason to melt both. The melting of swords is very much linked to conquest.

There is no sign of Dark Sister so far at all. At least with Blackfyre we have a vague hint it is soon to appear. Not so with Dark Sister. Also, I do not see a strong narrative argument for melting down Oathkeeper at this point. It is much stronger as an artifact that lasts.

[LongRider]

8 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Look Into the Flames: Swords and Shards | Watchers on the Wall | A Game of Thrones/House of the Dragon Community for Breaking News, Casting, and Commentary

Great article, thanks for the link, really enjoyed it.  Loved the suggestion of Needle as Lightbringer, even though, like the author of the post, I don't see it happening.       

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

That is definitely the fun question in all of this!

My guess: Widow's Wail and Blackfyre seem to be the two most likely to cross paths in the near future, in ways that might generate a reforging. Widow's Wail is either already stolen from KL or will be, and from there will head South, while Blackfyre is either on its way to Aegon or already there. Storm's End seems to be the destination for both, and in a context of war. Cersei would gladly melt Blackfyre if she defeats Aegon, and Aegon would gladly melt Widow's Wail if he defeats the Lannister forces. Meanwhile if Dany eventually fights Aegon she would have reason to melt both. The melting of swords is very much linked to conquest.

There is no sign of Dark Sister so far at all. At least with Blackfyre we have a vague hint it is soon to appear. Not so with Dark Sister. Also, I do not see a strong narrative argument for melting down Oathkeeper at this point. It is much stronger as an artifact that lasts.

Interesting.  We know DS went north of the Wall, but that isn't a lot to go on with.  I've spent some time considering where and with whom the swords may go until they get where they are needed.  Who do you see taking WW south?  And why?  

This bit with Cersei melting swords down is interesting.  Can't say I've ever seen that idea before.  But, in this theorizing it could make some real sense.  Hadn't thought about Aegon collecting swords at all.  Another fresh idea!  

If a nice sized Blackfyre was indeed melted down with the materials from Widows Wail I wonder if there is enough VS to forge a great sword?  What would this new sword be named?  

[Curled Finger]

Another thing I got to thinking about post script is TPTWP as the Targaryen hero.  I imagine this hero requires a magic sword to see the job through to the end.  Much as I lean in on Dany being this hero, I don't see her wielding a sword at all.  Not where her talents lie.  I can see someone like Jorah using a big sword, but a Targaryen sword? Not so much.   

In that same breath I wonder why Rhaenys had no sword.   

[Hippocras]

23 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Another thing I got to thinking about post script is TPTWP as the Targaryen hero.  I imagine this hero requires a magic sword to see the job through to the end.  Much as I lean in on Dany being this hero, I don't see her wielding a sword at all.  Not where her talents lie.  I can see someone like Jorah using a big sword, but a Targaryen sword? Not so much.   

In that same breath I wonder why Rhaenys had no sword.   

Maybe that famous dagger was hers.

[Hippocras]

48 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Interesting.  We know DS went north of the Wall, but that isn't a lot to go on with.  I've spent some time considering where and with whom the swords may go until they get where they are needed.  Who do you see taking WW south?  And why?  

This bit with Cersei melting swords down is interesting.  Can't say I've ever seen that idea before.  But, in this theorizing it could make some real sense.  Hadn't thought about Aegon collecting swords at all.  Another fresh idea!  

If a nice sized Blackfyre was indeed melted down with the materials from Widows Wail I wonder if there is enough VS to forge a great sword?  What would this new sword be named?  

Basically I think it would follow the logic of conquest, and the part that triggers the magic would be accidental, as in the "sacrifice" aspect does not need to be deliberate, there simply needs to be a connection between the sword in question and the person killed with it. Cersei would melt Blackfyre because it was the symbol  of royal legitimacy for hundreds of years and that is precisely what she needs to destroy. Ditto for Aegon and Widow's Wail. Right now, WW is THE royal sword of the "Baratheon" royal line.

Widow's Wail is officially still in KL, and maybe it really is. On the other hand, Tommen possibly gave Loras a sword to to fight on Dragonstone, though it is unclear which one. I have seem people speculate that Loras was actually given WW. If not, Taena Merryweather had deep access to the Red Keep shortly before abandoning KL and we know she was a spy. After Cersei's arrest there was really very little to keep people with access to Tommen from using that access to gain an artifact that would have great value to any one of Cersei's growing list of enemies, and would be a gesture that in particular would resonate with Aegon if the sword was delivered to him as a pledge of support.

But even if noone steals WW, it may still head South as part of the campaign to oust Aegon from the STormlands. If it stays for a very long time in KL, it may be Dany who eventually reforges it, also because of the logic of destroying symbols of legitimacy of her enemies.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

Basically I think it would follow the logic of conquest, and the part that triggers the magic would be accidental, as in the "sacrifice" aspect does not need to be deliberate, there simply needs to be a connection between the sword in question and the person killed with it. Cersei would melt Blackfyre because it was the symbol  of royal legitimacy for hundreds of years and that is precisely what she needs to destroy. Ditto for Aegon and Widow's Wail. Right now, WW is THE royal sword of the "Baratheon" royal line.

Widow's Wail is officially still in KL, and maybe it really is. On the other hand, Tommen possibly gave Loras a sword to to fight on Dragonstone, though it is unclear which one. I have seem people speculate that Loras was actually given WW. If not, Taena Merryweather had deep access to the Red Keep shortly before abandoning KL and we know she was a spy. After Cersei's arrest there was really very little to keep people with access to Tommen from using that access to gain an artifact that would have great value to any one of Cersei's growing list of enemies, and would be a gesture that in particular would resonate with Aegon if the sword was delivered to him as a pledge of support.

But even if noone steals WW, it may still head South as part of the campaign to oust Aegon from the STormlands. If it stays for a very long time in KL, it may be Dany who eventually reforges it, also because of the logic of destroying symbols of legitimacy of her enemies.

So you don't see Cersei forging another sword from Blackfyre?  Or Aegon capturing a prize?  I admit I do like the idea of Loras with WW despite no real fact to back it up with.  It has always been an intriguing idea because we read about and know Loras a bit.  Jamie sees his younger self in Loras but still he listens to Brienne about  events surrounding Renly's death.   Loras has a great deal of promise as a hero in ASOIAF.  He's got all the makings.  Loras also seems wreckless while being capable of cunning foresight.  Tommen adores him.  It could work.  You betcha Loras would jump at a chance to defend the realm and check out the contender.  This gets better the more I think about it.  Yes, yes, we have statements that WW in in Kings Landing.  That doesn't preclude Loras' return from Dragonstone or a mistaken report on his health.  So long as Loras is alive (funny the last of Loras recalls the awful Quentyn Martell horror) there is possibility he could yet get WW.  Cersei will have to disperse and dispense with few amenable to her orders.  Perhaps our Queen has gained some  insight on this game of thrones while her freedoms were compromised?  Delicious!  

I am trying to play with the swords to see if I can come up with anything, but my imagination is not that vivid.  I like WW & DS as the odd swords, smaller and probably really effective in the right character's hands.  These swords allow for smaller, disabled or simply weaker characters to kick ass.  I hate the name Widows Wail.  That guy should be in the black cells.  

Ah, the dagger.  No matter how hard I try the lousy thing keeps showing up with prominence.  If Viserys really did have the danged thing, it would have to have been a gift to the crown or directly from Valyria.  Sweet Rhaenys with a dagger of prophecy.  Eye brows raise questioningly.   Why not?  There are other interesting VS items stranger than the dagger.  Let's have a look at the Celtigar's axe or Euron's batman suit.  Caggo's arakh.  It almost has to play in future tale given Shadoq's appearance in FAB. 

Loras becomes a powerful ally for Aegon.  Wonder if he mentions his sister?  Wonder if Aegon is already married?  Wonder if Arianne will think he's cute?   

[Hippocras]

11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

So you don't see Cersei forging another sword from Blackfyre?  Or Aegon capturing a prize?  I admit I do like the idea of Loras with WW despite no real fact to back it up with.  It has always been an intriguing idea because we read about and know Loras a bit.  Jamie sees his younger self in Loras but still he listens to Brienne about  events surrounding Renly's death.   Loras has a great deal of promise as a hero in ASOIAF.  He's got all the makings.  Loras also seems wreckless while being capable of cunning foresight.  Tommen adores him.  It could work.  You betcha Loras would jump at a chance to defend the realm and check out the contender.  This gets better the more I think about it.  Yes, yes, we have statements that WW in in Kings Landing.  That doesn't preclude Loras' return from Dragonstone or a mistaken report on his health.  So long as Loras is alive (funny the last of Loras recalls the awful Quentyn Martell horror) there is possibility he could yet get WW.  Cersei will have to disperse and dispense with few amenable to her orders.  Perhaps our Queen has gained some  insight on this game of thrones while her freedoms were compromised?  Delicious!  

I am trying to play with the swords to see if I can come up with anything, but my imagination is not that vivid.  I like WW & DS as the odd swords, smaller and probably really effective in the right character's hands.  These swords allow for smaller, disabled or simply weaker characters to kick ass.  I hate the name Widows Wail.  That guy should be in the black cells.  

Ah, the dagger.  No matter how hard I try the lousy thing keeps showing up with prominence.  If Viserys really did have the danged thing, it would have to have been a gift to the crown or directly from Valyria.  Sweet Rhaenys with a dagger of prophecy.  Eye brows raise questioningly.   Why not?  There are other interesting VS items stranger than the dagger.  Let's have a look at the Celtigar's axe or Euron's batman suit.  Caggo's arakh.  It almost has to play in future tale given Shadoq's appearance in FAB. 

Loras becomes a powerful ally for Aegon.  Wonder if he mentions his sister?  Wonder if Aegon is already married?  Wonder if Arianne will think he's cute?   

I'm not that committed to any version as long as it makes a great story. It is true that to really work with the theory, both WW and Blackfyre would need to be reforged at the same time, and for symbolic reasons. I suppose Cersei might do such a thing if WW becomes emotionally toxic to her (ie one of her children is killed with it) and she defeats Aegon, claiming his sword. A nice big greatsword to symbolize her own reign seems like the kind of overkill she might go for, and would represent in a lot of ways her forced unification of Southern Westeros.

It is trickier with Aegon. He really would have no reason to destroy Blackfyre, though he might claim and hold on to both swords until Dany defeats him. And as I said, Dany would have good reason to destroy both, since Blackfyre is the source of many problems for the royal Targaryens since Aegon IV and she will likely be frustrated and angry when she learns she may be supplanted by an upstart more easily accepted because he is a man. I am doubting she will be all that happy about Aegon (Young Griff).

[Hippocras]

Regarding the first article of the series on the "loose ends" of the Targ family tree, I find myself wondering about Aegon the Uncrowned and Aegon II's bastards, among others. Aegon the Uncrowned was probably the father of Larissa Velaryon's daughter, born "Tarth" and married Estermont. I wonder where her descendants ended up.

Aegon II had 2 bastards (at least) who may have survived the Dance, so it is not just Aemond's child with Alys Rivers who is a loose end for the Greens. I would be intrigued if Duncan the Tall was descended from one of these bastards.