Tywin killed Joanna

[Hippocras]

Tywin has officially blamed Tyrion for Joanna's death his entire life. He passed on the blaming Tyrion pattern to Cersei. But I think it is possible that it is not even true. It is a lie to protect his own reputation.

Tyrion is a Lannister because his mother was, regardless of who might have fathered him. It seems very possible that Tywin's belief that he was not Tyrion's father was confirmed the moment of his birth, and that this made him enraged. In this sense maybe Victarion's story is meant as a hint, and not just an element of his relationship with Euron.

This would explain several things.

1. First, no rational person blames an infant for death from childbirth, particularly in such a setting where death from childbirth is common. Tywin was nothing if not coldly rational.

2. Second, dwarfism is a very poor excuse for refusing his son a place in the succession. When Jaimie joined the Kingsguard, the laws are very clear that Tyrion became Tywin's heir. Except that Tywin would not allow it, and if Tyrion actually had only the most distant possible right to Casterly Rock via Joanna's line, that would make Tywin's determination to deny the seat to Tyrion much more logical.

3. Third, Tywin did many monstrous things, and his primary motivation almost every time was to protect his reputation, legacy, and family name. If he killed his wife after flying into a rage when he saw the baby, he was exactly the kind of monster who would rather blame a baby than have anyone anywhere think that he, Tywin Lannister, had lost control, was a murderer and kinslayer, and had been cuckolded.

4. Finally, there is the fact that Aerys and Rhaella had 5 children between Rhaegar and Viserys who were either stillborn or died soon after birth. We know little of them, but it seems at least possible that Tywin's belief that Tyrion would not survive his first year was rooted in first hand knowledge of both how those children looked and how they died. If Duncan the Small was not just short, but a dwarf, there is at least some reason to believe that dwarfism existed in the Targaryen family tree.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Hippocras

[Lady_Qohor]

If Tywin did truely love Joanna, as is mentioned in the book then he probably wasn't rational when she died. Grief and ableist prejudices typical in the medieval era aren't exactly synonymous with rationality.

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

1. First, no rational person blames an infant for death from childbirth

But that's the thing, Tywin's hatred of/disdain for Tyrion is (in my view), not meant to be rational, but petty/irrational. He treats Tyrion badly for something that wasn't his fault. And eventually his needless petty hatred comes back to bite him when Tyrion kills him.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Hippocras]

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But that's the thing, Tywin's hatred of/disdain for Tyrion is (in my view), not meant to be rational, but petty/irrational. He treats Tyrion badly for something that wasn't his fault. And eventually his needless petty hatred comes back to bite him when Tyrion kills him.

Sure, maybe. But we all know there are secrets still to be revealed in the Aerys-Tywin-Joanna-Tyrion story. We don't know what they are, but we know there is something.

[Hippocras]

35 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said:

If Tywin did truely love Joanna, as is mentioned in the book then he probably wasn't rational when she died. Grief and ableist prejudices typical in the medieval era aren't exactly synonymous with rationality.

I think his love for Joanna is a story he tells the world. The truth is different. I think he doesn't really separate genuine love (as in, care for someone else's wellbeing) from seeing her as a prize to be won. Aerys's attraction to Joanna was no secret, and so winning her was a matter of pride, very much tied into the dynamic between him and Aerys.

[Alester Florent]

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

1. First, no rational person blames an infant for death from childbirth, particularly in such a setting where death from childbirth is common. Tywin was nothing if not coldly rational.

2. Second, dwarfism is a very poor excuse for refusing his son a place in the succession. When Jaimie joined the Kingsguard, the laws are very clear that Tyrion became Tywin's heir. Except that Tywin would not allow it, and if Tyrion actually had only the most distant possible right to Casterly Rock via Joanna's line, that would make Tywin's determination to deny the seat to Tyrion much more logical.

3. Third, Tywin did many monstrous things, and his primary motivation almost every time was to protect his reputation, legacy, and family name. If he killed his wife after flying into a rage when he saw the baby, he was exactly the kind of monster who would rather blame a baby than have anyone anywhere think that he, Tywin Lannister, had lost control, was a murderer and kinslayer, and had been cuckolded.

4. Finally, there is the fact that Aerys and Rhaella had 5 children between Rhaegar and Viserys who were either stillborn or died soon after birth. We know little of them, but it seems at least possible that Tywin's belief that Tyrion would not survive his first year was rooted in first hand knowledge of both how those children looked and how they died. If Duncan the Small was not just short, but a dwarf, there is at least some reason to believe that dwarfism existed in the Targaryen family tree.

I don't seem to be able to break up quotes today for some reason.

1. I think this reaction is more common than you might think, even today and especially in fiction. Losing a loved one (and by all accounts Tywin did actually love Joanna) is not something many people can be rational about.

2. I think again you underestimate the prejudice against dwarfs in Westeros. They are generally despised. Tyrion is in fact almost certainly the most respected dwarf in Westeros by a country mile, and many people still feel comfortable mocking him about it to his face. Tywin desperately craves respect, and for his son (and heir!) to be an object of ridicule is something he can't tolerate.

Not naming Tyrion his heir though isn't, under the circumstances, just because Tyrion's a dwarf. It's because he's never given up on the idea of Jaime's somehow inheriting Casterly Rock.

Then again, it goes deeper than that too. If Tyrion were Jaime Mk2, Tywin probably wouldn't be so concerned about getting Jaime out of the KG to inherit. But if Tyrion were able-bodied, Aerys probably wouldn't have appointed Jaime to the KG in the first place, because his doing so was designed to spite Tywin and deprive him of an heir. Refusal to accept Jaime's KG appointment and Tyrion as heir would therefore on some level be admitting that Aerys has, despite being dead for years, got one over on Tywin.

And I suspect that any real chance that Tywin and Tyrion could have had a healthy relationship, however unlikely, was destroyed by Aerys. During his failing relationship with Tywin at the time, he will have thrown Tyrion's dwarfishness and Joanna's death in Tywin's face every chance he got. He may even have played up the question of whether Tyrion is really Tywin's, to aggravate him. By the time Tywin finally resigns as Aerys's Hand, his relationship with Tyrion is already irreparable because he's had to endure eight years of spiteful japes.

3. I don't think Tywin killed Joanna in the manner described, but I do think it's entirely plausible that he gave the order for an emergency c-section to save the baby, knowing that this procedure was inevitably fatal for the mother. So there may well be some repressed guilt of his own wrapped up in things.

4. You may be onto something, albeit I do belive that Tywin is genuinely Tyrion's father. As to Duncan the Small, he was pretty clearly named in childhood in contrast to Duncan the Tall, who was famously huge, and there's no indication that as an adult he was of below-average height, even.

 

[Hippocras]

39 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I don't seem to be able to break up quotes today for some reason.

1. I think this reaction is more common than you might think, even today and especially in fiction. Losing a loved one (and by all accounts Tywin did actually love Joanna) is not something many people can be rational about.

2. I think again you underestimate the prejudice against dwarfs in Westeros. They are generally despised. Tyrion is in fact almost certainly the most respected dwarf in Westeros by a country mile, and many people still feel comfortable mocking him about it to his face. Tywin desperately craves respect, and for his son (and heir!) to be an object of ridicule is something he can't tolerate.

Not naming Tyrion his heir though isn't, under the circumstances, just because Tyrion's a dwarf. It's because he's never given up on the idea of Jaime's somehow inheriting Casterly Rock.

Then again, it goes deeper than that too. If Tyrion were Jaime Mk2, Tywin probably wouldn't be so concerned about getting Jaime out of the KG to inherit. But if Tyrion were able-bodied, Aerys probably wouldn't have appointed Jaime to the KG in the first place, because his doing so was designed to spite Tywin and deprive him of an heir. Refusal to accept Jaime's KG appointment and Tyrion as heir would therefore on some level be admitting that Aerys has, despite being dead for years, got one over on Tywin.

And I suspect that any real chance that Tywin and Tyrion could have had a healthy relationship, however unlikely, was destroyed by Aerys. During his failing relationship with Tywin at the time, he will have thrown Tyrion's dwarfishness and Joanna's death in Tywin's face every chance he got. He may even have played up the question of whether Tyrion is really Tywin's, to aggravate him. By the time Tywin finally resigns as Aerys's Hand, his relationship with Tyrion is already irreparable because he's had to endure eight years of spiteful japes.

3. I don't think Tywin killed Joanna in the manner described, but I do think it's entirely plausible that he gave the order for an emergency c-section to save the baby, knowing that this procedure was inevitably fatal for the mother. So there may well be some repressed guilt of his own wrapped up in things.

4. You may be onto something, albeit I do belive that Tywin is genuinely Tyrion's father. As to Duncan the Small, he was pretty clearly named in childhood in contrast to Duncan the Tall, who was famously huge, and there's no indication that as an adult he was of below-average height, even.

 

That is a bit patronizing. It is not that I think Tywin's official reasons are not plausible. I know very well that dwarves were hated and that Tywin MAY have actually had genuine selfless love for Joanna. That isn't the point. We ALSO know that he is perfectly capable of creating false narratives to serve his purposes, and that any kind of perceived shame tends to generate way over-the-top reactions from him.

[Alester Florent]

4 hours ago, Hippocras said:

That is a bit patronizing. It is not that I think Tywin's official reasons are not plausible. I know very well that dwarves were hated and that Tywin MAY have actually had genuine selfless love for Joanna. That isn't the point. We ALSO know that he is perfectly capable of creating false narratives to serve his purposes, and that any kind of perceived shame tends to generate way over-the-top reactions from him.

I'm sorry if you found that patronising, although I'm not sure which part of it was?

The initial premise seems to be founded on something of a contradiction, though: that Tywin, being rational, wouldn't blame his wife for Tyrion's being a dwarf and/or consider Tyrion's dwarfishness a reason to disinherit him, but would also fly off the handle in a way we've never seen him do (or heard about his doing) and murder Joanna in a fit of rage.

That side of things just doesn't add up for me. I think there is more going on than simply Dwarf = Bad in Tywin's mind, as I say, and I also think it's wholly plausible that Tywin did effectively order Joanna's death by surgery and regrets it (but this is a rather different scenario to the one posited). But I also think the scenario we're shown and told in the books is sufficient to explain everything without requiring some kind of deeper darker secret.

[Hippocras]

7 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

The initial premise seems to be founded on something of a contradiction, though: that Tywin, being rational, wouldn't blame his wife for Tyrion's being a dwarf and/or consider Tyrion's dwarfishness a reason to disinherit him, but would also fly off the handle in a way we've never seen him do (or heard about his doing) and murder Joanna in a fit of rage.

We have definitely seen him fly off the handle in rage, particularly concerning matters of family pride. He may have a cold and calculating way of going about it, but vicious rage is definitely there. His wife bearing the child of another man would fall in the same category of family dishonour as Tyrion and Tysha, the Rains of Castamere, the original Walk of Shame (Tytos's mistress) etc.

Furthermore, given Aerys's interest in Joanna there was no way he would be able to get away with killing Joanna for it in a way that was even suspected. So death by childbirth and subsequent blaming of Tyrion fits the cold calculating pattern. I think Illyn Payne knows.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Hippocras

[the trees have eyes]

You have to bear in mind different values.  Until quite recently (in historical terms) infants stood a high chance of being abandoned if they were disabled.  Poverty would be the main driver for abandoning an unwanted but healthy child but an unhealthy or crippled child could be rejected or left at an orphanage depending on the society's institutions.

From Tywin's point of view, Joanna bore him two perfectly healthy and apparently perfect (on the outside not the inside) children and then one "monstrosity".  It's highly likely he would have traded Tyrion's "flawed" life for Joanna's in a heartbeat and hoped to have more children with her.  The fact that Tyrion lived and Joanna died is something Tywin has never really recovered from, remaining unmarried despite being one of the most eligible men in the realm, so it's not surprising that a proud and rigid man like him would resent Tyrion. 

The rumours of Aerys and Joanna can never be resolved so it's another frustration or sleight to his honour that Tywin has to bear - and that he can project on to and take out on Tyrion.

I don't see any hints in story that Tywin was responsible for her death.

[Hippocras]

43 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

You have to bear in mind different values.  Until quite recently (in historical terms) infants stood a high chance of being abandoned if they were disabled.  Poverty would be the main driver for abandoning an unwanted but healthy child but an unhealthy or crippled child could be rejected or left at an orphanage depending on the society's institutions.

From Tywin's point of view, Joanna bore him two perfectly healthy and apparently perfect (on the outside not the inside) children and then one "monstrosity".  It's highly likely he would have traded Tyrion's "flawed" life for Joanna's in a heartbeat and hoped to have more children with her.  The fact that Tyrion lived and Joanna died is something Tywin has never really recovered from, remaining unmarried despite being one of the most eligible men in the realm, so it's not surprising that a proud and rigid man like him would resent Tyrion. 

The rumours of Aerys and Joanna can never be resolved so it's another frustration or sleight to his honour that Tywin has to bear - and that he can project on to and take out on Tyrion.

I don't see any hints in story that Tywin was responsible for her death.

Sure this is the official explanation and it is fine. However there is more to the story of Tywin-Joanna-Aerys than we currently know.

Tywin spent his life torturing his family members (not just Tyrion) over their affection for women he considered unworthy. We then find him on the last day of his life with a whore, and not just any whore: Tyrion's whore. He is then shot to death on the toilet, and after that, his body is so stinky that noone can bear to properly pay their respects. The message is that his entire legacy is foul and built on lies.

It is therefore very reasonable to consider that his "love" for Joanna may be one of those lies or distortions. I think that his "love" for Joanna was inseparable from the fact that she was a prize that he got and Aerys did not. This, at the very least, is supported by hints in the text. As for the actual details, we will have to see. But given the rivalry over Joanna that we know existed, and the way Aerys went about putting Tywin in his place by taking from him things that he cared about, it is certainly not unreasonable to speculate that Aerys took his liberties with Joanna in a way that soured Joanna's relationship with Tywin and could provoke in him a deep murderous rage. Tyrion IS his son. What Tyrion did to Shae IS the clue.

[Corvo the Crow]

Tyrion could be a chimera of Tywin's and Aery's children, which is something I doubt, I think he is Tywin's and Tywin's alone... well, he is still a chimera but from Tywin alone.  Jaime is possibly Aery's while Cersei is straight up Aery's get.they(Aerys and Cersei) aren't just insane but both want to burn the KL due to it's smell and build a white city/palace across the Blackwater.  I don't know what more could GRRM have done to get this across. He may as well have said that Aerys had taken the right of the first night or whatever.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[astarkchoice]

Yeah their rrlationship is toxic but doesnt need an out of character murder for it to be so..we are told tywin was besotted with his wife and treated he kindly.

Her death allowed those who either disliked/feared tywin something to mock him.about hence aerys cruel remarks and rumours that even the martells heard that tywins line had created a monster!

Thus in one stroke tywin had lost the love of his life and people had something to mock him about over their.cups , his worst fear of becomming his weak dad realised! 

The blaming of a child for a mothers death xna happem and with him it was tied in with an extra punch so their realationship starts off toxic! As he grows proud  tywin is forced to virtualy beg to find tyrion a syluitable.match even  going as low as the florent girl king robert deflowered!

Tyrion as wd know took and interest in tumbling to make  secret mockery of him worse. Then he weds a peasant which of course not only enrages him as he thinks all peasants are manipulative old diggers (his stepmum) but tyrions exercising free will and denying a chance for his dad to form an alliance (it must also add to t he sting that jamie  seemingly.approved and that they were happy as hed been!) This he humiliates tyrion and the 'gold digger' as brutaly as.possible. 

Aerys adds to the sting by stealing his heir and leaving the clear sucessor tyrion.

From there their realtionship devolves further as  tyrion masks his pain with.drink and whores and wisedracks becomming more of an embarassment to tywin who in turns bans  tyrion from seeing the free cities or travelling to try and find the family sword (from hos pov  jsut so the essosi woouldnt see tyrion and join the mockery too) hes given to clear out casterly rocks plumbing thus tries to show  his dad by doing an unappreciated  bang up job

[John Suburbs]

On 6/9/2023 at 11:40 AM, Hippocras said:

Tywin has officially blamed Tyrion for Joanna's death his entire life. He passed on the blaming Tyrion pattern to Cersei. But I think it is possible that it is not even true. It is a lie to protect his own reputation.

Tyrion is a Lannister because his mother was, regardless of who might have fathered him. It seems very possible that Tywin's belief that he was not Tyrion's father was confirmed the moment of his birth, and that this made him enraged. In this sense maybe Victarion's story is meant as a hint, and not just an element of his relationship with Euron.

This would explain several things.

1. First, no rational person blames an infant for death from childbirth, particularly in such a setting where death from childbirth is common. Tywin was nothing if not coldly rational.

2. Second, dwarfism is a very poor excuse for refusing his son a place in the succession. When Jaimie joined the Kingsguard, the laws are very clear that Tyrion became Tywin's heir. Except that Tywin would not allow it, and if Tyrion actually had only the most distant possible right to Casterly Rock via Joanna's line, that would make Tywin's determination to deny the seat to Tyrion much more logical.

3. Third, Tywin did many monstrous things, and his primary motivation almost every time was to protect his reputation, legacy, and family name. If he killed his wife after flying into a rage when he saw the baby, he was exactly the kind of monster who would rather blame a baby than have anyone anywhere think that he, Tywin Lannister, had lost control, was a murderer and kinslayer, and had been cuckolded.

4. Finally, there is the fact that Aerys and Rhaella had 5 children between Rhaegar and Viserys who were either stillborn or died soon after birth. We know little of them, but it seems at least possible that Tywin's belief that Tyrion would not survive his first year was rooted in first hand knowledge of both how those children looked and how they died. If Duncan the Small was not just short, but a dwarf, there is at least some reason to believe that dwarfism existed in the Targaryen family tree.

If Tywin killed Joanna because of Tyrion, then he would have killed Tyrion too. In feudal society, things like dwarfism were blamed on curses by the gods, and it's mentioned several times that Tyrion was Tywin's punishment for arrogance. So even coldly rational Tywin should have no compunction about killing Tyrion, and virtually no one would contest this. It would be seen as an act of kindness, in fact.

And if he did decide to let Tyrion live, he is a curse, so this would be a very valid reason for cutting him out of the line of succession.

There would also be witnesses to how Joanna died -- maesters, midewives, etc. -- and it would be very obvious that she died in childbirth, due to Tyrion's abnormally large head. So Tywin would not only have to kill Joanna, but everyone who attended the birth and prepared her body for burial. That would be a rash of sudden deaths that would be hard to explain.

[Admirable Privy]

Based on Pycelle's over the top denial in the Aerys II section in TWOIAF, it seems pretty reasonable to conclude that Aerys and Joanna were fucking before and after Joanna's marriage to Tywin, and that would absolutely drive a guy like Tywin crazy.  Personally I think she died of natural causes and I don't like Tyrion Targaryen theory because it undermines Tyrion as a character, but the knowledge that he was second place in her heart driving Tywin to kill his wife is plausible to me, and witnessing the birth of a deformed child that "must be" a Targaryen mutant stillbirth like the many of Rhaella's that Tywin may have witnessed being the trigger seems plausible too.

[Hippocras]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

If Tywin killed Joanna because of Tyrion, then he would have killed Tyrion too. In feudal society, things like dwarfism were blamed on curses by the gods, and it's mentioned several times that Tyrion was Tywin's punishment for arrogance. So even coldly rational Tywin should have no compunction about killing Tyrion, and virtually no one would contest this. It would be seen as an act of kindness, in fact.

And if he did decide to let Tyrion live, he is a curse, so this would be a very valid reason for cutting him out of the line of succession.

There would also be witnesses to how Joanna died -- maesters, midewives, etc. -- and it would be very obvious that she died in childbirth, due to Tyrion's abnormally large head. So Tywin would not only have to kill Joanna, but everyone who attended the birth and prepared her body for burial. That would be a rash of sudden deaths that would be hard to explain.

Well I suppose it depends when exactly she died - truly DURING the birth, or afterwards from "complications". Certainly he did not kill her when everyone was around. I see your point, I just think there is far more Tyrion in Tywin than he let on and he was a giant hypocrite. So in that sense the killing of Shae would be an inversion of situations.

If Tywin did not kill Joanna then it was not witnesses that stopped him. We saw often enough how easily he bent septons and lords and more to his will, but he also would not have done it with abundant witnesses. The only thing that stopped him (if he was stopped) was the fact that Joanna was kin. The same fact that stopped him from killing Tyrion. If Joanna had not been Tywin's cousin, Tyrion would be dead.

The thread was a provocation certainly, but the dynamic between Tywin and Joanna was not pure love I am certain, and bears examination.

[John Suburbs]

On 6/19/2023 at 12:36 PM, Hippocras said:

Well I suppose it depends when exactly she died - truly DURING the birth, or afterwards from "complications". Certainly he did not kill her when everyone was around. I see your point, I just think there is far more Tyrion in Tywin than he let on and he was a giant hypocrite. So in that sense the killing of Shae would be an inversion of situations.

If Tywin did not kill Joanna then it was not witnesses that stopped him. We saw often enough how easily he bent septons and lords and more to his will, but he also would not have done it with abundant witnesses. The only thing that stopped him (if he was stopped) was the fact that Joanna was kin. The same fact that stopped him from killing Tyrion. If Joanna had not been Tywin's cousin, Tyrion would be dead.

The thread was a provocation certainly, but the dynamic between Tywin and Joanna was not pure love I am certain, and bears examination.

Yeah, I don't see Tywin as the lovey-dovey type either. The only source we have for this is Kevan, and he's got some serious hero-worship when it comes to Tywin.

And while Joanna may have been in charge of many things at home while Tywin was off running the kingdom, it's not like she could bend Tywin to her will. She got overruled regarding Cersei and Jaime's betrothals, which is probably the only thing Tywin cared about on the domestic front.

[the trees have eyes]

On 6/18/2023 at 7:34 PM, Hippocras said:

Tywin spent his life torturing his family members (not just Tyrion) over their affection for women he considered unworthy. We then find him on the last day of his life with a whore, and not just any whore: Tyrion's whore. He is then shot to death on the toilet, and after that, his body is so stinky that noone can bear to properly pay their respects. The message is that his entire legacy is foul and built on lies.

Tywin spent his life restoring the power and prestige of his House.  Tyrion marrying a commoner and consorting with prostitutes goes against a powerful, proud and cruel man's lifelong goals and results in "sharp lessons".  Although Tywin is a dick this is a patriarchal society and the family patriarch decides who marries who (see Hoster Tully's estrangement from Brynden over the latter's refusal to obey).

Tywin's pride and concern for his personal and family name leads him to keep secret his own consorting with prostitutes.  Consorting with Shae is of course the trigger to instil a murderous fury in Tyrion at his father's betrayal and hypocrisy.  And his execution on the toilet it is to set up the closing chapter line that "Lord Tywin Lannister did not in the end shit gold".  His undignified fate is the further humbling of a proud man as is the corruption of his corpse.

On 6/18/2023 at 7:34 PM, Hippocras said:

It is therefore very reasonable to consider that his "love" for Joanna may be one of those lies or distortions. I think that his "love" for Joanna was inseparable from the fact that she was a prize that he got and Aerys did not. This, at the very least, is supported by hints in the text. As for the actual details, we will have to see. But given the rivalry over Joanna that we know existed, and the way Aerys went about putting Tywin in his place by taking from him things that he cared about, it is certainly not unreasonable to speculate that Aerys took his liberties with Joanna in a way that soured Joanna's relationship with Tywin and could provoke in him a deep murderous rage. Tyrion IS his son. What Tyrion did to Shae IS the clue.

How does that follow?  He married a cousin rather than into a powerful House or the Royal family as he intended and then achieved with Cersei.  That marriage, and the fact that he never remarried afterwards, suggest love.  It's also commented on by his siblings, e.g.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion V

A queer time to come visiting. His mother had died giving him birth, so the Martells would have found the Rock deep in mourning. His father especially. Lord Tywin seldom spoke of his wife, but Tyrion had heard his uncles talk of the love between them. In those days, his father had been Aerys's Hand, and many people said that Lord Tywin Lannister ruled the Seven Kingdoms, but Lady Joanna ruled Lord Tywin. "He was not the same man after she died, Imp," his Uncle Gery told him once. "The best part of him died with her."

 

Saying Tyrion killed Shae is a clue that Tywin killed Joanna is pretty bizarre to me.  Joanna died in childbirth, an incident where Tywin was probably not even in the room as, until very recently, fathers were not expected to be present and where she would have been surrounded by attendants.  Tywin may not have been off hunting boar like Robert but it's more plausible by far than him somehow murdering Joanna and then somehow covering it up.  How would he have killed her?  What would the maester and funeral attendants who prepared her body for burial have thought of her injuries and why are there no rumours of this supposed event?  By contrast Tyrion sneaks through a secret passage, etc....

 

I don't see any clues in the text, just an attempt to imagine and impose a symmetry in Tywin and Tyrion's characters and affairs of the heart.  People have free agency and walk their own paths and paternity / maternity does not govern a child's future behaviour; far less so does a child's actions govern a parent's.

 

Sadly, women die in childbirth to this day and in story, Dalla, Lyanna and Joanna all die in childbirth and Elia came close.