Why were the 3 Conquerors so OLD?

[Hippocras]

Yes, they were young people, but for the customs of the time, when you really look at it, they were very old to be still without children at the time of the conquest. Why did it take so long?

Aenys was born in 7 AC when Aegon was 34 years old and Rhaenys was 32 or 33.

Maegor was born in 12 AC, when Aegon was 39 and Visenya was 41! A "geriatric" pregnancy. Oh my.

 

I am not sure how much the possibility of previous marriages for these characters has been discussed, but it sort of seems like it should be discussed. Maybe they did not marry each other until after their first spouses died while fighting in Lys or elsewhere at the end of the Century of Blood. Are there whole branches of this family we know nothing about yet? If not, why on earth did it take until their 30's and 40's for them to reproduce?

[KingAerys_II]

Aegon was maybe sterile, and his sisters made something to have kids, after Meraxes fell at Hellholt people at court believed that Aenys was going to die after his collapse, so it was necessary to do something, some lords suggested Aegon to replace Visenya with fertile women. 

In the pits of Gogossos Valyrian sorcerers were able to crossbreed beasts with women, I suspect Visenya had Maegor with Balerion by using blood magic, it is probably Rhaenys did something similar, I don't think Aenys was the kid of a singer. 

Visenya had Maegor at age of 41, before Maegor birth everyone believed she was barren. 

Daenerys has the same problem now, but if Visenya and Rhaenys succeeded in having a son, she can do it too

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[Hippocras]

40 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Aegon was maybe sterile, and his sisters made something to have kids, after Meraxes fell at Hellholt people at court believed that Aenys was going to die after his collapse, so it was necessary to do something, some lords suggested Aegon to replace Visenya with fertile women. 

In the pits of Gogossos Valyrian sorcerers were able to crossbreed beasts with women, I suspect Visenya had Maegor with Balerion by using blood magic, it is probably Rhaenys did something similar, I don't think Aenys was the kid of a singer. 

Visenya had Maegor at age of 41, before Maegor birth everyone believed she was barren. 

Daenerys has the same problem now, but if Visenya and Rhaenys succeeded in having a son, she can do it too

 

You see what I mean? Every explanation is a little bit crackpot! There really is no good simple explanation.

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

People do have fertility issues.  

[KingAerys_II]

1 hour ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

People do have fertility issues.  

This is the official explaination, but Visenya became pregnant when there was the risk to be replaced, it could be a coincidence, she had fertility issues in her youth, then these problems suddenly disappeared, and Maegor has fertility issues too

Edited June 15, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[The Commentator]

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Yes, they were young people, but for the customs of the time, when you really look at it, they were very old to be still without children at the time of the conquest. Why did it take so long?

Aenys was born in 7 AC when Aegon was 34 years old and Rhaenys was 32 or 33.

Maegor was born in 12 AC, when Aegon was 39 and Visenya was 41! A "geriatric" pregnancy. Oh my.

 

I am not sure how much the possibility of previous marriages for these characters has been discussed, but it sort of seems like it should be discussed. Maybe they did not marry each other until after their first spouses died while fighting in Lys or elsewhere at the end of the Century of Blood. Are there whole branches of this family we know nothing about yet? If not, why on earth did it take until their 30's and 40's for them to reproduce?

The question is an interesting but unimportant in the overall plot. What if children were born earlier but then died at Dragonstone. Claiming a dragon is the riskiest thing in the world.  

[KingAerys_II]

19 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

The question is an interesting but unimportant in the overall plot. What if children were born earlier but then died at Dragonstone. Claiming a dragon is the riskiest thing in the world.  

It is important for the overall plot, it can solve the fertility issues of Daenerys and this would allow the survival of Targaryen dinasty

[Gilbert Green]

4 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Yes, they were young people, but for the customs of the time, when you really look at it, they were very old to be still without children at the time of the conquest. Why did it take so long?

Incest.  It can affect fertility and viability.  It can affect alot of things.

[maesternewton]

3 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

In the pits of Gogossos Valyrian sorcerers were able to crossbreed beasts with women, I suspect Visenya had Maegor with Balerion by using blood magic, it is probably Rhaenys did something similar, I don't think Aenys was the kid of a singer. 

They mated beasts to slave women to bring forth twisted half-human children.

If Maegor was the result of such a thing, he would not come out looking human.

The is no indication, also in Asoiaf that magic is so potent or powerful to create a child out of nothing. If we go by the notion that Visenya birthed Maegor using magic.

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

This is the official explaination, but Visenya became pregnant when there was the risk to be replaced, it could be a coincidence, she had fertility issues in her youth, then these problems suddenly disappeared, and Maegor has fertility issues too

Sometimes the easy answer, is the right answer. Everything in Asoiaf isn't a mystery or has some crazy explanation. 

[Hippocras]

19 hours ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

People do have fertility issues.  

Wel yes, very true. But then one has to ask, if you know you have fertility issues, would you go on a mission to found a dynasty to rule an entire continent? I mean, of course Dany is planning just that, but. They generally governed wisely and has some restraint on the matter of burning things to the ground, so it seems like a big question mark to do all that conquering without having any belief that you would have an heir to pass it all on to. If they had fertility issues, they did not know it yet. Which means they had not been married all that long.

 

18 hours ago, The Commentator said:

The question is an interesting but unimportant in the overall plot. What if children were born earlier but then died at Dragonstone. Claiming a dragon is the riskiest thing in the world.  

I don't think it is at all unimportant. Yes, they may have had children who died, I agree. Lots of Targs did and not from dragons. But there is no sign of it. So it does raise some questions. Either it throws into question their motivations, or it throws into question what we think we know about relationships that existed before and during the Conquest. There might be broader impacts on a large range of family trees. And this is an epic where bloodlines matter.

18 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Incest.  It can affect fertility and viability.  It can affect alot of things.

This was obviously not a problem for Jaehaerys, so I don't think that explains much in this case.

19 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

and Maegor has fertility issues too

Still up for debate. He had no heirs but Tyanna also admitted to sabotaging his wives' pregnancies. We will never know if Queens Alys, Jeyne and Elinor might actually have had healthy children without Tyanna's intervention. Meanwhile the maesters and septons of Westeros fought wars against Maegor and abhorred him. They were not neutral on the matter and so for them spreading the idea that Maegor was infertile was useful: That way no bastards could come forward and pose a serious threat. As for Ceryse, as a Hightower and nephew of the High Septon she may well have been deliberately avoiding getting pregnant by Maegor.

Call it the conspiracy to prevent Maegor's line ever ruling Westeros. Any further information that eventually comes forward about links between Oldtown and Pentos is worth looking at with great interest, as we might find out Tyanna was a collaborator.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Hippocras

[KingAerys_II]

19 hours ago, maesternewton said:

They mated beasts to slave women to bring forth twisted half-human children.

If Maegor was the result of such a thing, he would not come out looking human.

The is no indication, also in Asoiaf that magic is so potent or powerful to create a child out of nothing. If we go by the notion that Visenya birthed Maegor using magic.

Dragonlord have the blood of the dragon, because they are in part dragons, in this case the hybrids are inhumanly beautiful. 

Some kids as Rhaenyra's daughter have dragon features 

Edited June 16, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[The hairy bear]

17 hours ago, Hippocras said:

This was obviously not a problem for Jaehaerys, so I don't think that explains much in this case.

I'm not that sure that it was not a problem: their firstborn Aegon died a few months after birth, there were a number of other abortions and stillborn children, Gael was simple-minded, and Daella might have had some problems too.

And in any case, genetics is a lottery. Inbreeding can cause infertility issues to some members of a family and not to others.

17 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Still up for debate. He had no heirs but Tyanna also admitted to sabotaging his wives' pregnancies. We will never know if Queens Alys, Jeyne and Elinor might actually have had healthy children without Tyanna's intervention.

Tyanna's confession was extracted under torture, so it amounts to nothing. Given that Maegor had failed to produce any surviving child with any of his multiple brides, either before meeting Tyanna or after her death, it's very doubtful that she played any part on the failures of her co-wifes' pregnancies.

17 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Meanwhile the maesters and septons of Westeros fought wars against Maegor and abhorred him. They were not neutral on the matter and so for them spreading the idea that Maegor was infertile was useful: That way no bastards could come forward and pose a serious threat.

Maegor was married to six young women, many of them of proven fertility, and actively tried to produce a heir for the greatest part of 25 years. There's no bias involved in stating that the most reasonable assuption is that he was infertile.

17 hours ago, Hippocras said:

As for Ceryse, as a Hightower and nephew of the High Septon she may well have been deliberately avoiding getting pregnant by Maegor.

Why would she do that?!? Maegor married Ceryse in 25 AC. Producing a heir was a priority for both. It was only on 39 AC, after 14 years of failed intents, that Maegor decided that Ceryse was barren and abandoned her. This is what started the hostility between Maegor with the Hightowers and the Faith.

[Hippocras]

1 minute ago, The hairy bear said:

Why would she do that?!? Maegor married Ceryse in 25 AC. Producing a heir was a priority for both. It was only on 39 AC, after 14 years of failed intents, that Maegor decided that Ceryse was barren and abandoned her. This is what started the hostility between Maegor with the Hightowers and the Faith.

Ceryse was a Hightower. The Hightowers were DEEPLY tied to the Faith of the Seven, which Maegor, from very early on, made explicitly his enemy. By assuming she simply adopted Maegor's goals and ambitions you turn her into a nonperson. She is not a very detailed character. We simply don't know what she wanted for herself, but assuming she wanted what Maegor wanted seems a tad blind given who she was and where she came from, and the dynamics of the time. Also, being linked to the Citadel meant the maesters and grandmaesters would have helped her if she had no intention of getting pregnant.

 

 

4 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

IMaegor was married to six young women, many of them of proven fertility, and actively tried to produce a heir for the greatest part of 25 years. There's no bias involved in stating that the most reasonable assuption is that he was infertile.

The only person he "tried" with for a long time was Ceryse. But actually he mostly shunned her, and her own ideas may have been different even when he did not. As for the rest, Elinor, Alys, and Jeyne WERE all pregnant.

[The hairy bear]

3 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Ceryse was a Hightower. The Hightowers were DEEPLY tied to the Faith of the Seven, which Maegor, from very early on, made explicitly his enemy.

Very early on? Maegor married Ceryse when he was 13. He didn't do anything to antagonize the Faith until he was 27, when he married a second time.

During the entirety of his marriage to Ceryse, there wasn't any bad blood between them. Let's not forget that it was the High Septon himself who pushed for this marriage.

3 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

The only person he "tried" with for a long time was Ceryse. But actually he mostly shunned her

It's never said that Maegor shunned Ceryse when they were together. Quite the opposite:

the lords who bore witness to the bedding all agreed that the prince made a lusty husband, and Maegor himself boasted that he had consummated the marriage a dozen times that night. “I made a son for House Targaryen last night,” he proclaimed as he broke fast.

A great feast was held at the Hightower to celebrate their reconciliation; the revels even included a bedding and a “second consummation,” so all men would know this to be a true and loving union.

[Hippocras]

29 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Very early on? Maegor married Ceryse when he was 13. He didn't do anything to antagonize the Faith until he was 27, when he married a second time.

He was Visenya's child, and Visenya was never a friend of the Faith. Then when he was 11 she caused a spat with the Faith by proposing he marry Rhaena, which is why he was married to Ceryse in the first place (to appease the Faith). He was vicious and brutal from birth, a fact witnessed by many, including septons, maesters and Andal Houses such as Corbray (Dragonstone master-at-arms). When he married Ceryse, all of Oldtown witnessed his arrogance and what sounds like a brutal wedding night. I don't think it is very easy to make the case that he did not rub the Faith the wrong way from the start.

36 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

During the entirety of his marriage to Ceryse, there wasn't any bad blood between them. 

Evidence? He thought she was beneath him, and she was 10 years his senior. Their wedding night sounds not dissimilar to Ramsay Bolton's wedding night, involving her body being abused by serial rapes. "Lusty husband" is window dressing. There is no indication whatsoever that Ceryse wanted to be f*ed to exhaustion that many times in 1 night. Frankly, it would have hurt a lot. Yes, the High Septon pushed the marriage, but that does not imply that he thought Maegor was a fine young man. Marriage can be about ambition, but it can also be about control, and joining the Hightower and Targaryen families was very much about control and influence.

As for the reconciliation feast and bedding - nothing at all to do with love and everything to do with presentation and ambition. We know NOTHING about Ceryse's feelings towards Maegor.

[The hairy bear]

You ask for evidence, yet you do not provide any yourself. It seems to me that the one making extraordinary claims that are not supported by the text (such as that Maegor mostly shunned Ceryse, or that Maegor was "an explicit enemy of the Faith" from "very early on") should be the one that brings it forward.

43 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

As for the reconciliation feast and bedding - nothing at all to do with love and everything to do with presentation and ambition.

So... just as every other single bedding between nobles in the continent?

Aren't you seeing the situation through a 21st century lens? A marriage hasn't anything to do with love. Everyone (including Ceryse) would agree that Maegor was in his right to consummate the marriage as many times as he wished. The Faith wouldn't look down on any knight for being vicious and brutal.

43 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

We know NOTHING about Ceryse's feelings towards Maegor.

We know that when Maegor abandoned her, she still continued to insist that she was Maegor’s only lawful wife. If she really despised Maegor to the point to avoid getting pregnant, why would she want to come back with him?!?

[Hippocras]

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

You ask for evidence, yet you do not provide any yourself. It seems to me that the one making extraordinary claims that are not supported by the text (such as that Maegor mostly shunned Ceryse, or that Maegor was "an explicit enemy of the Faith" from "very early on") should be the one that brings it forward.

 

My point is simply that we don't KNOW that Maegor was infertile. You are the one claiming things are certain.

[Lord Varys]

The issue of Aegon and his sisters is indeed somewhat odd. Clearly there were fertility issues there, and the best explanation is indeed that Aegon was infertile and both Aenys and Maegor are not, in fact, his biological children.

However, general explanations like 'incest causes fertility problems' doesn't really work with the Targaryens as continued and, apparently, quite successful incest was their preferred marriage custom for thousands of years before the Conquest ... and ever afterwards the Targaryens are rarely truly infertile.

Monstrosities aside, their women seem to have about the same problems at carrying pregnancies to term and surviving them as the average Westerosi noblewoman has. And there are very fertile Targaryens like King Aenys, Jaehaerys and Alysanne, Rhaenyra, Daemon Blackfyre, Maekar, and, especially, Aegon the Unworthy.

If the author wanted to send us the message that incest leads to infertility we would have a lot of childless princes and princesses. But that is comparatively rare.

Aegon and Maegor pretty much are the only Targaryens who tried and (possibly) failed to have children. Later generations either never tried - like King Aerys I - or at least succeeded once or twice (Naerys, Aerys II and Rhaella).

[KingAerys_II]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The issue of Aegon and his sisters is indeed somewhat odd. Clearly there were fertility issues there, and the best explanation is indeed that Aegon was infertile and both Aenys and Maegor are not, in fact, his biological children.

However, general explanations like 'incest causes fertility problems' doesn't really work with the Targaryens as continued and, apparently, quite successful incest was their preferred marriage custom for thousands of years before the Conquest ... and ever afterwards the Targaryens are rarely truly infertile.

Monstrosities aside, their women seem to have about the same problems at carrying pregnancies to term and surviving them as the average Westerosi noblewoman has. And there are very fertile Targaryens like King Aenys, Jaehaerys and Alysanne, Rhaenyra, Daemon Blackfyre, Maekar, and, especially, Aegon the Unworthy.

If the author wanted to send us the message that incest leads to infertility we would have a lot of childless princes and princesses. But that is comparatively rare.

Aegon and Maegor pretty much are the only Targaryens who tried and (possibly) failed to have children. Later generations either never tried - like King Aerys I - or at least succeeded once or twice (Naerys, Aerys II and Rhaella).

Naerys gave birth to Daeron II, Daenerys and her male twin who died and had a miscarriage. 

Aerys and Rhaella had Rhaegar, Viserys and Daenerys and lots of miscarriages and prince Jaehaerys who died at age of six months. 

You are right, it is strange, Rhaenys and Visenya had no miscarriages, only one successful pregnancy each, and Visenya gave birth just after she acknowledged about the risk to be replaced, it's like her pregnancy was intentional, as she knew it could be successful, I think sorcery is involved. I think Aenys is really son of Aegon, but Rhaenys used something, or she conceived Aenys with a singer, even though rumors are always wrong, it would be ironic if Maegor is actually not the son of Aegon