Let's figure out Pretty Pia

[Springwatch]

3 hours ago, Seams said:

I bet you're right. I see Jon Snow looking in faceted mirrors when he is surrounded by Grenn, Pyp, Satin, Leathers, other Night's Watch pals, possibly even Sam. We never really see Jaime surrounded by kings guard members until he returns from Riverrun and Cersei has appointed the new motley crew to the six positions. But Jaime leaves on his Riverlands mission and surrounds himself with his own squires, hostages, fighters such as Strongboar and - plucked from the dark dungeon - Ser Ilyn Payne. These fellow travelers are likely aspects of himself and reflect his evolving personality or world view.

We never hear of Josmyn Peckleton until Jaime departs on this quest. Names that start with J are significant, I think, and possibly linked. Just as Tyrion resisted the idea of riding the pig when it was suggested by Joffrey and, for awhile, by Penny, I think Jaime resisted the idea of sleeping the Pia but eventually came up with a solution by encouraging his squire to lovingly and gently sleep with her.

This reminds me very much of Lady Tanda trying everywhere to find a husband for Lollys but failing in all of her attempts both before and after Lollys is raped. Bronn, a right-hand-man for Tyrion, finally marries Lollys and he says he genuinely likes his wife. 

I hope it is a prophetic universe. Anyway, these are great observations, thank you, they feel absolutely right.

I kinda feel there's something in the letter J. GRRM really loves the name Jeyne, doesn't he? I must have another go at looking at how he hands out the names.

[Springwatch]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

While GRRM has a passage where someone is sent to the “buttery” to get butter and cheese, a buttery is not a place where butter or dairy is stored.  Or I suppose, it could be stored there, but that’s not technically the purpose.

Buttery is an English term taken from the french word, boterie.  Which in turn is derived the Latin, bota, which means casks.  

It’s basically a storeroom.  Where the barrels are kept.  

That's really interesting, I never thought about it. Buttery is a funny name for a place that produces not only butter but also cream and cheese and so on. Nowadays though several places use it as a synonym for dairy, so I suppose it all works out.

2 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Not looking for a fight.  But these parallels set up the contrast I mentioned.  And I guess we are supposed to notice the contrast as well.

Fair enough. It'd be a pity if we all thought the same. I'll just clarify my meaning in a few places where it needs it.

2 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Jaime abandoned his lordship FOR his sexy partner.  Later, and for other reasons, he abandoned his sexy partner too.

That's true, but I was thinking of when Jaime chose the kingsguard over Tywin's offer to restore him to Casterly Rock.

2 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

No opinion on how sexy Amerei is.  She is a healthy young woman with enormous tracts of land.  I guess that makes her sexy enough.

I meant sexually active, really. And going beyond societal restrictions.

2 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Lancel's relationship with Amerei is that she is handed to him as a prize of war.  And he simply sets her free.  Which was the honorable, devout and chivalrous thing to do.  He is not really questing after true knighthood (whatever that means).  But he is acting like a true knight.  And directly contrary to the advice and urgings of Jaime.

I like Ami for some reason. I hope she gets to keep her castle, but it's not a done deal without Lancel - the next lord might want to marry someone else.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Springwatch
spelling

[Nevets]

15 hours ago, Seams said:

@Nevets picked up on the motif of sexual violence in parallel characters.  I suspect these victims of sexual violence are all part of GRRM's fertility motif that undergirds the overall plot: If I am reading the clues correctly, he is telling us that the planting of crops in Westeros is an act of sexual violence inflicted upon the earth. I've written elsewhere that Ser Gregor is a "green" character - he and his men inflict irrational, unspeakable violence on Pia. Bronn is a "brown" character - the fertility goddesses may be safe with these brown characters, who represent soil where the planted seeds are quietly nurtured. Perhaps Josmyn Peckledon represents the brown character in Jaime's retinue.

Josmyn's name sounds suspiciously like Osmund Kettleblack, though. Could Josmyn be a black character? I think part of GRRM's earth fertility cycle involves fire - the burning of Wat's Wood in The Sworn Sword, for instance. Maybe Bonifer (bonfire) Hasty represented the fire at Harrenhal, freeing Pia who had never been outside of that castle. Her new friendship with Josmyn could represent the fallow aftermath of the fire and she will soon germinate, in spite of Jaime's observation that she had never been pregnant during her many years of sexual activity. There is fire at Winterfell before Jeyne Poole arrives as the fake Arya. A body (Bannen) is burned at Craster's Keep before the mutiny and rape of Craster's wives, resulting in Gilly's escape.

What is the timeline of the fire at the Tower of the Hand - set by Cersei - and either Lollys giving birth or Jaime freeing Pia? I wonder whether that fire is part of the fertility cycle involving characters touched by Lannisters?

Edit: I stand corrected. I see that Peck (Josmyn Peckledon) emerged from the Blackwater, before Jaime's Riverlands sojourn. I think a Blackwater origin could mean that he is any color, as black absorbs all colors and I have a theory that the battle was a giant "black hole" with light and color passing through to emerge in a new spectrum on the other side. Peck testified that Tyrion dumped wine on the ground after Joffrey's death - this is part of the fertility ritual, as shown in The Sworn Sword when Ser Eustace Osgrey pours wine into the berry patch (bury patch) where his sons were buried. But Peck then becomes one of three squires on Jaime's quest, along with  Garrett Paege and Lewys Piper.

I'm sorry, but I don't really see a fertility motif in the series.  I certainly don't associate ordinary agriculture as a "rape of the earth" so to say.  That tends to be reserved for clearly destructive activities. like pollution, deforestation, or rampant overuse, none of which I can remember seeing.  And 'I'm quite sure you don't intend any association between sexual violence and fertility in general.  I certainly hope not.

While names can sometimes have significance, it helps to be careful.  There are thousands of people, places, and objects and he has call them something.  There can be surface connections possibly, and maybe a little deeper, but go too deep, and you find yourself lost.  For example, I think any connection between Peck and the Blackwater is just coincidence. in a labyrinthine rabbit-hole.  I also doubt any connection between the fire at Winterfell, long in the past by that time, and Jeyne Poole.  Although I can see some water imagery with her, both with her name and the fact of her constant crying.  

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Nevets

[Springwatch]

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

While names can sometimes have significance, it helps to be careful.  There are thousands of people, places, and objects and he has call them something.  There can be surface connections possibly, and maybe a little deeper, but go too deep, and you find yourself lost.

There is a quote somewhere... I heard GRRM said the name had to fit the character,  and of course in the books there's great play over losing a name, forgetting a name, remembering a name. But you're right the massive size of the cast isn't totally helping.

[Evolett]

On 6/26/2023 at 5:45 PM, Seams said:

I have the feeling that Pretty Pia is an important allegorical character, perhaps linked to Lollys and Tysha because of the sexual violence inflicted on them.

Quote

Pretty Pia from the buttery was a slut who was working her way through every knight in the castle. 

Clash, Arya VII.

She works in the buttery at Harrenhal,

Pretty Pia hasn't been at the top of my list. After reading this thread I went back to the books and was surprised how much stage-time the author devotes to her. Interesting. I'm not sure I've anything mega insightful to offer, just a few notes and thoughts and another look at the buttery, which seems quite fascinating. 

 

I'm seeing there is definitely a theme connecting Amerei, Pia and Pretty Pig and Brienne. But it also includes Cersei and most likely, to Elia of Dorne and Fat Walder Frey/Bolton. 

On 6/26/2023 at 5:45 PM, Seams said:

The trip to Darry brings Amerei and Pia together:

Quote

"Ser Harwyn says those tales are lies." Lady Amerei wound a braid around her finger. "He has promised me Lord Beric's head. He's very gallant." She was blushing beneath her tears.

Jaime thought back on the head he'd given to Pia. He could almost hear his little brother chuckle. Whatever became of giving women flowers? Tyrion might have asked.

First noteworthy thing: Like Amerei who's been promised a head and Pia who has already received one, Cersei desires a head and is waiting to be presented with Tyrion's head. Tyrion who rides Pretty Pig. I wonder if "Pretty Pig" is a catchall for women abused and raped by men? Cersei certainly never willingly coupled with Robert and was hit by him on more than one occasion. Oppo, former rider of Pretty Pig, wrongly lost his head to Cersei. Also significant is Jamie's attraction to pretty Pia and his private thoughts on Tyrion who eventually rides Pretty Pig:

Quote

Remember your vows. Pia is more fit for Tyrion’s bed than yours

 

Elia of Dorne was raped and killed by the Mountain (perhaps partly mirroring the Mountain's man who raped Pia and lost his head for it). Gregor's head was eventually presented to Elia's family in Dorne and the women, particularly Oberyn's girls, were suspicious regarding its authenticity but eager to receive it. 

Amerei is linked to the pig motif through her first husband, Pate of the Blue Fork. The name Pate always conjures up Pate the Pig Boy in my mind. 

Cersei has been partial to boar ever since Robert's demise. She strongly identifies with the boar that killed him. 

Both Fat Walda and Brienne are described as "a sow in silk." Brienne hates certain men for the cruel games they played in an attempt to claim her maidenhood. And of course she has suffered a lot of ridicule from the opposite sex as well as hanging under Vargo Hoat's and the Mummer's desire to rape her.  So yes, thinking about it, "Pretty Pig" does appear to be a moniker for abused and raped women, perhaps also for promiscuous women in general.

Joff wanted to serve up Robb's head to Sansa but that didn't happen. In a way, he did "serve" her Ned's head though, as well as force her to look upon it spiked up on the battlements. Joff also abuses Sansa and threatens to have her despite her marriage but  dies before he can  do her any further harm. 

Fat Walda has a lot of pig imagery. Besides her size and "a sow in silk," she also "squeals" in bed with Roose. She's also fertile. 

Quote

Lady Walda is a Frey, and she has a fertile feel to her. I have become oddly fond of my fat little wife. The two before her never made a sound in bed, but this one squeals and shudders. I find that quite endearing. If she pops out sons the way she pops in tarts, the Dreadfort will soon be overrun with Boltons. Ramsay will kill them all, of course. 

If wordplay is anything to go by, Roose at the moment gives Walda symbolic "flowers" (Roose / Rose). We know what Ramsay is like. Roose is not wrong. I can see one of two things happening as a result of the insights here: either Ramsay kills Roose and presents Walda with her husband's head, or someone else kills Ramsay and presents Walda with his head. 

 

Speaking of heads: I discovered this titbit that may link heads / the giving of heads with feritlity

Quote

“Who else? The last I saw of cousin Cleos, his palfrey was using his head to plow a furrow. Though I suppose we ought to find him. He is a Lannister of sorts.” They found Cleos still tangled in his stirrup. He had an arrow through his right arm and a second in his chest, but it was the ground that had done for him. The top of his head was matted with blood and mushy to the touch, pieces of broken bone moving under the skin beneath the pressure of Jaime’s hand.

Cleos' head reminds me of the mushy melon "head" that falls into Ser Gyles' lap during the dwarves's mummer show at the Purple Wedding. Can't remember which dwarf the melon head belonged to, perhaps worth looking up. 

GRRM uses the word "plow" in a genuine farming context often. However he also uses it to describe sex:

Quote

Robert had been handsome enough when they first married, tall and strong and powerful, but his hair was black and heavy, thick on his chest and coarse around his sex. The wrong man came back from the Trident, the queen would sometimes think as he was plowing her.

 

Cersei thinks of herself as being "plowed." This is probably where Darry becomes important. Their sigil is a black plowman on a brown field. Gatehouse Ami Amerei, a Darry on her mother's side, a woman subject to frequent "plowing." House Darry itself is all but extinct. Perhaps receiving the Hound's head will symbolically lead to the revival of House Darry, no matter if Lancel consumates the marriage or not? She's promiscuous enough to provide an heir. "Plowing" in terms of sex isn't found that often in the text. This might support the above notion:

Quote

Now, Jon Arryn married thrice, but his first two wives gave him no children, so for long years his nephew Elbert was his heir. Meantime, Elys was plowing Alys quite dutifully, and she was whelping once a year. She gave him nine children, eight girls and one precious little boy, another Jasper, after which she died exhausted.

 The use of "plowing" here strongly suggests it's associated with very successful fecundity. Robert never had any children from Cersei but his "plowing" bore lots of fruits elsewhere. Notice how Alys dies exhausted after the effort of bringing forth so many children. I think this really speaks to the idea of an overworked "mother earth" who is forced into sexual aktivity again and again to keep bearing fruit. 

And coming to think of it, Gyles Rosby, recipient of the mushy melon head, is childless after 2 marriages leaving no immediate heir.  

ETA: Dorne receives the Mountain's head. Might that encourage the desert to bloom? 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Evolett

[Evolett]

22 hours ago, Nevets said:

I'm sorry, but I don't really see a fertility motif in the series.  I certainly don't associate ordinary agriculture as a "rape of the earth" so to say.  That tends to be reserved for clearly destructive activities. like pollution, deforestation, or rampant overuse, none of which I can remember seeing.  And 'I'm quite sure you don't intend any association between sexual violence and fertility in general.  I certainly hope not.

I do think fertility is an underlying theme more or less hidden in plain sight by GRRM. It's also relevant to one of the biggest mysteries in the story - the unbalanced seasons. What is the significance of a very long summer if not to ensure ongoing agricultural activity and prosperity? A plentiful supply of food is absolutely essential to the prosperity of the people. But this fertility of the land is being bought by means of unwholesome magic, imo, and is symbolically depicted through the rape and abuse of women. Personally, I'm pretty sure it's the long summers that are the real problem. Recovery of the land through regular periods of death that promote life (another way of interpreting "only death can pay for life)" is an integral part of normal seasonal cycles, but this does not happen on Planetos. Long harsh winters follow long summers, it is said. However, these winters are still not as long as the preceding summers. I think the Long Night is an additional response representing absolute and widespread death, designed to even things out. 

It's no accident that the very first line of the first POV chapter in aGoT reads:

Quote

The morning had dawned clear and cold, with a crispness that hinted at the end of summer.

 [ ... ]

It was the ninth year of summer, and the seventh of Bran’s life. Bran I, aGoT

We are immediately informed on the season of summer.
Also no accident that King Robert presided over the longest summer in living memory and rules at the beginning of the tale. His reign is thought of as prosperous. He is an archetypical "Horned God" of fertility who fathers numerous children and has many parallels to Garth the Green. 

GRRM has peppered many fertility concepts from folklore, mythology and history throughout all books, including outright magical practices such as water witches of the Rhoynar making deserts bloom. It's all very low-key but it's there, so looking for fertility symbolism to explain certain mysteries is a worthwhile pursuit . 

 

[Gilbert Green]

On 6/27/2023 at 4:09 PM, Springwatch said:

I meant sexually active, really. And going beyond societal restrictions.

Lancel isn't preoccupied with Ami's sins, only his own.  Jaime is not preoccupied with Ami's sins, only with Lannister control of her castle.  Strongboar is not too preoccupied with her past sins either.

On 6/27/2023 at 4:09 PM, Springwatch said:

I like Ami for some reason. I hope she gets to keep her castle, but it's not a done deal without Lancel - the next lord might want to marry someone else.

Nobody is safe in Westeros.  But are you hinting that Jaime was right, and that Lancel should have held onto Ami for the sake of Lannister interests, and this would have been best for Ami as well?

Under normal rules, the next Lord will be whoever the Lady chooses to marry.  Maybe Strongboar.  And hopefully, it will be voluntary this time.  No guarantees.

[Sandy Clegg]

As we have had pigs mentioned a few times in this thread, I'll just do my thing and insert an edited Chambers Dictionary reference for all the meanings of 'pig', in case anyone gets a flash of inspiration. Some more unusual definitions I've highlighted:

pig  noun

1. Any mammal of the family Suidae
2. Its flesh as food, esp that of the young animal
3. Someone who is like the popular image of a pig, dirty, greedy, etc
4. An oblong mass of unforged metal, as first extracted from the ore
5. The mould into which it is run, esp one of the branches, the main channel being the sow
6. A device that is propelled through a pipeline by pressure, for clearing purposes, etc.
7. A feast (slang)
8. A policeman (slang)
9. A segment of an orange (slang)
10. Something very difficult (slang)
11. (as piggy) a child's name for a toe 

[Seams]

21 hours ago, Evolett said:

another look at the buttery, which seems quite fascinating. 

I just re-read the comments so far, and I do think this dairy motif has large clues for us. 

Because of his dairy name, I remembered Butterbumps, and his strange role in the conversation between Sansa and the Queen of Thorns.

Olenna Tyrell seems like a key player in the last of the Targaryens - she was betrothed to Daeron Targaryen, uncle of Mad King Aerys. She also carries wine symbolism (Redwyne surname) and flower symbolism (Queen of Thorns + Tyrell rose sigil). During her mad tea party scene with Sansa and with Margaery's "hens," she demands that cheese be served, giving us another dairy link. So how does she fit with this pattern we are seeing with sexually active women, flowers, severed heads, mummers, dairy foods and the conflict between boars and hounds? And am I correct in seeing the planting of seeds, green, brown and the black that follows fire as part of the equation for fertility in ASOIAF?

I suspect that the broken betrothals of Jaehaerys and Shaera to Olenna Redwyne and Luthor Tyrell may tell us something important the decline and fall of the Targaryens. The children of Aegon V all rejected the matches arranged by their father, who had been steered to the throne by Bloodraven in a series of complicated maneuvers. I think the betrothals to Houses Redwyne and Tyrell were intended to provide an infusion of fertility to House Targaryen -- for hatching dragon eggs, if not for healthy human heirs. 

Butterbumps lays a big egg, appears to ingest a chick and then causes the chick to appear from the sleeve of Lady Bulwer, one of Margaery's hens. It seems likely that the egg references here - maybe all egg references in the books - are telling us things about how to hatch dragons. Maybe the point is that the newly-hatched chicks appear to be ingested but then re-emerge in unexpected ways. Could be a hint for Sansa about the dragon-acquisition options open to her.

Butterbumps juggles oranges, including bouncing one off his rump and eating one whole, slapping his cheek and then blowing orange seeds out of his nose. So there are some seeds for us to consider as part of this larger fertility motif. We know that Sansa is obsessed with lemon cakes and that an upcoming lemon shortage will be a challenge for her supply of lemon cakes.  Olenna asks Margaery to call for Butterbumps saying that she hopes to make Sansa smile. I have wondered in the past whether there is wordplay on smile and limes. Oranges come up in Brienne's quest for Sansa, as Septon Meribald takes a special interest in distributing oranges to the poor. Based on clues in the Dunk & Egg stories, I think oranges are linked to House Targaryen, perhaps most strongly to characters named Aegon. Lots of citrus going on. (And citrus is often an ingredient in mulled wine, mentioned earlier in this discussion.)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the seeds Butterbumps produces for Sansa are an indication that she will be the "mother" of the next Aegon. I know, I know - not the literal mother and fruit seeds cannot impregnate a human but this is literature and I am the magic literary analysis fairy. My thread, my rules. This may be GRRM's wacky, madcap version of the immaculate conception. 

At this mad tea party, Olenna is trying to turn Sansa into the Lady of Highgarden, bride of the heir to Highgarden, Willas Tyrell. So Sansa would become, essentially, the goddess of the earth's fertility or queen of the Westeros equivalent of the Garden of Eden. In a way, she would be the heir of Renly, because Renly had bedded Ser Loras Tyrell. The flaw in the Renly / Loras love match, insofar as we are examining the fertility symbolism, is that there were no eggs in the relationship. Renly had the option of bedding Margaery, but didn't get around to it. Joffrey also will miss his opportunity to bed Margaery and Tommen is too young at the end of the fifth book. 

Who will be the next Garth Greenhand? Westeros wants to know. 

But I mention all this because I am guessing that we will see Olenna and Butterbumps parallels in the arcs of these other fertility goddesses - Pia, Cersei, Lollys, Jeyne Poole, Gatehouse Ami, Brienne, Tysha, Gilly, the daughter of the captain of the Myraham. Maybe they won't be mothers of Aegons, but they might be mothers of other important reborn heroes and archetypes.

We saw Dany's dragons hatch after the gang rape of Mirri Maz Duur. If that sexual violence is part of the fertility cycle for dragon eggs, there are going to be a lot of dragon eggs hatching pretty soon. 

[Springwatch]

On 6/29/2023 at 2:20 AM, Gilbert Green said:

Lancel isn't preoccupied with Ami's sins, only his own.  Jaime is not preoccupied with Ami's sins, only with Lannister control of her castle.  Strongboar is not too preoccupied with her past sins either.

I don't see Strongboar as a parallel for Jaime, but for Lancel, I do. Both left an 'unfaithful' partner to focus on their knightly order (Sons of the Warrior/White Swords).

On 6/29/2023 at 2:20 AM, Gilbert Green said:

Nobody is safe in Westeros.  But are you hinting that Jaime was right, and that Lancel should have held onto Ami for the sake of Lannister interests, and this would have been best for Ami as well?

It wouldn't have been a very happy marriage, would it?  

I'm not criticising Lancel's choices. But Ami might not want another roll of the dice - she was having a lovely time.

On 6/29/2023 at 2:20 AM, Gilbert Green said:

Under normal rules, the next Lord will be whoever the Lady chooses to marry.  Maybe Strongboar.  And hopefully, it will be voluntary this time.  No guarantees.

That's the heart of it. It is not and never was in the Lannisters' interest to recognise Ami as the legitimate heir and Lady of Darry. Better for them to treat Darry like Harrenhal - a property that reverted to the Crown when the family 'died out', so they can hand it over to their own side. They gave Darry to Lancel, not Ami.

Ami came from a poor and disrespected side of the Frey family - if the Freys thought she was in the line to inherit, they'd have kept her close, instead of marrying her to a hedge knight and considering her a problem. But the weakness of her claim doesn't matter to the Lannisters - actually better that she doesn't out-rank her husband - and as Kevan plans it, her Darry blood will help win over the small folk to Lancel. The next lord might not need/want that extra validation. Let's hope it's Strongboar. He seems more Ami's type; and if she loses interest, well, he might not notice.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Springwatch
punctuation

[Gilbert Green]

11 hours ago, Springwatch said:

That's the heart of it. It is not and never was in the Lannisters' interest to recognise Ami as the legitimate heir and Lady of Darry.

But they did do that.  That's the basis of Lancel's claim to be Lord of Darry. 

Tyrion was ordered to marry Sansa, on a similar theory.

But no-one can force them to be consistent I guess.  Now that Lancel and Ami are no longer married, they can do an about-face and argue someone else is the true heir.  But the hypocrisy will be noticed.  And the Freys and any smallfolk who felt any loyalty to House Darry (among others) will be offended.

11 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Ami came from a poor and disrespected side of the Frey family - if the Freys thought she was in the line to inherit, they'd have kept her close, instead of marrying her to a hedge knight and considering her a problem.

Egg was also allowed to run around with a hedge knight.  Because nobody expected him to inherit.  Nobody knew that the War of the Five Kings would devastate House Darry.

I guess her parents figured a hedge knight was a step up from three grooms.  Her father did not care much, because he already had a (younger) son, and that was HIS heir.  And of course prospects for high-station marriages were already poor, simply by virtue of the fact that there were too many Freys running around.  In their eyes, they were defending her honor, by causing or permitting her to marry quickly.

I am guessing that when you inherit through the female line the sex of the eldest child is no longer considered.  Amerei is not her father's heir because she is not the oldest male (and there is a son), but she is her mother's heir because she is the oldest child.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Springwatch]

12 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

But they did do that.  That's the basis of Lancel's claim to be Lord of Darry. 

Tyrion was ordered to marry Sansa, on a similar theory.

But no-one can force them to be consistent I guess. 

Exactly. Harrenhal, Winterfell, Darry. And little Ermesande's place too. There's no need for consistency, the Lannisters are just grabbing whatever's in their reach, because they are those shameless, hypocritical, greedy people. They did give Darry to Lancel, because unlike Winterfell, it's in their power. (There's a quote somewhere if you want it.)

It was Kevan (not a leading Lannister) who arranged the marriage to Ami, so Lancel can pay lip service to Darry claims. Kevan knows Lancel is a bit weak.

12 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Now that Lancel and Ami are no longer married, they can do an about-face and argue someone else is the true heir.  But the hypocrisy will be noticed.  And the Freys and any smallfolk who felt any loyalty to House Darry (among others) will be offended.

But they never said Ami was heir! Genna thinks her boy has a better claim. Little Walder has Darry blood and has the advantage of being male. We don't know how many other Darry relatives are out there. Ami wasn't chosen because of any superior claim, but for being an unmarried female who could be given to Lancel.

12 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

I guess her parents figured a hedge knight was a step up from three grooms. 

Absolutely! But if she was in line for Darry, the tactical Frey thing to do would be to marry her to a cousin. Keep it in the family.

[Gilbert Green]

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

But they never said Ami was heir!

The entire logic of the situation assumes Ami is an heir.  There's no point to Lancel marrying her otherwise.

EDIT:  Just checked, and Ami's mom is still alive, and is staying at Darry castle.  So I guess she would be the Lady of Darry, if she does not renounce the title.  But Ami, and any child of Ami through Lancel, would still be somewhere in the line of succession after her, and hence, an heir.

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Genna thinks her boy has a better claim.

Genna is wrong.  Her boy's wife is the YOUNGER sister of Ami's mom.  Older sister, and her children, inherit first.

And this "better claim" talk makes sense only in the context of the issue of who is the Darry heir.

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Little Walder has Darry blood and has the advantage of being male.

The rule may be that once you inherit through the female line (Ami's mom), you no longer consider the sex of the eldest child in succeeding generations, and the eldest child inherits regardless of sex.  But even if Ami's little brother Walder does have a better claim, perhaps he was deemed to have renounced it in favor of his elder sister, for one reason or another.  Those reasons might include Lannister pressure.  After all, Lancel can't marry Little Walder.

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

We don't know how many other Darry relatives are out there.

I see no point in speculating about candidates other than the ones already mentioned.  If they exist, they must have been presumed dead, or deemed to have renounced their claims.

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Absolutely! But if she was in line for Darry, the tactical Frey thing to do would be to marry her to a cousin.

Your argument proves too much.  Ami is certainly SOMEWHERE in the line of succession for Darry.  And in spite of that certain fact, those tactical Freys failed to do as you advise.

And since when does a hedge knight have less honor, and more property in his own name, than your average Frey cousin?

 

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Springwatch]

On 7/1/2023 at 4:21 PM, Gilbert Green said:

The entire logic of the situation assumes Ami is an heir.  There's no point to Lancel marrying her otherwise.

EDIT:  Just checked, and Ami's mom is still alive, and is staying at Darry castle.  So I guess she would be the Lady of Darry, if she does not renounce the title.  But Ami, and any child of Ami through Lancel, would still be somewhere in the line of succession after her, and hence, an heir.

Genna is wrong.  Her boy's wife is the YOUNGER sister of Ami's mom.  Older sister, and her children, inherit first.

And this "better claim" talk makes sense only in the context of the issue of who is the Darry heir.

People seem to lose interest in the rules of succession if it means going down the female line, especially more than once. (Robb did.) Genna could say, if the Darrys are that important, my grandsons are half Darry, but Ami's sons (if she has any) will only be a quarter Darry.

I say again, the ruling Lannisters have claimed Darry has no heirs, and the castle is theirs to give.

Quote

A more significant lordship by far was granted to Ser Lancel Lannister. Joffrey awarded him the lands, castle, and rights of House Darry, whose last child lord had perished during the fighting in the riverlands, “leaving no trueborn heirs of lawful Darry blood, but only a bastard cousin."

On 7/1/2023 at 4:21 PM, Gilbert Green said:

The rule may be that once you inherit through the female line (Ami's mom), you no longer consider the sex of the eldest child in succeeding generations, and the eldest child inherits regardless of sex.  But even if Ami's little brother Walder does have a better claim, perhaps he was deemed to have renounced it in favor of his elder sister, for one reason or another.  Those reasons might include Lannister pressure.  After all, Lancel can't marry Little Walder.

I genuinely did not know that! How did sweet Ami have such a rotten brother? Looks to me like the Lannisters wanted a girl, but the Freys were pushing the boy (the arms, the high-placed fosterage). Anyway, Ami had better dig herself in at Darry, because Walder's going to come home cross.

Weirdly, Ami is doing a good job. She needs an appropriate husband from the Lannister side in double quick time, and all that flirting could help. And if Strongboar does tame the outlaws to please Ami, she can claim that the smallfolk do love her, so she should stay.

On 7/1/2023 at 4:21 PM, Gilbert Green said:

I see no point in speculating about candidates other than the ones already mentioned.  If they exist, they must have been presumed dead, or deemed to have renounced their claims.

There's a bastard cousin somewhere too. Bastard cousins Jon Snow and the Hornwood bastard are both seriously considered as heirs.

On 7/1/2023 at 4:21 PM, Gilbert Green said:

Your argument proves too much.  Ami is certainly SOMEWHERE in the line of succession for Darry.  And in spite of that certain fact, those tactical Freys failed to do as you advise.

They had Walder. And that was a long shot.

On 7/1/2023 at 4:21 PM, Gilbert Green said:

And since when does a hedge knight have less honor, and more property in his own name, than your average Frey cousin?

A hedge knight doesn't owe loyalty to the Frey family, which would be annoying to them if Ami accidentally inherited a castle.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Springwatch
punctuation

[Gilbert Green]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I say again, the ruling Lannisters have claimed Darry has no heirs, and the castle is theirs to give.

A more significant lordship by far was granted to Ser Lancel Lannister. Joffrey awarded him the lands, castle, and rights of House Darry, whose last child lord had perished during the fighting in the riverlands, “leaving no trueborn heirs of lawful Darry blood, but only a bastard cousin."

Thanks for the quote.  I did not remember that.  So you got revenge on me there.

However, it does not change that much, for the following reasons:

-- Kings are not omnipotent; the laws of inheritance still matter.  Joffrey needs the loyalty of the nobles, which he might lose if he were to say things like "I can seize your lands any time I want to".  Which is a good reason why Joffrey does not put it that way.  Instead, he lies and says there are no heirs.

-- It is NOT true that there are no trueborn heirs of Darry blood; at least it is only true if you ignore the female line; which is not actually the law according to the evidence we have.   So at the very least, this proclamation has a defective "whereas clause".

-- To resolve this tension, and render it moot, the Lannisters force Lancel to wed a Darry heir.  They don't just rely on the (defective) proclamation.  There is no way to get around the fact that the only reason to force Lancel and Ami to marry is because Ami is plausibly an heir (but not THE heir, because that would probably be her mom). 

-- The proclamation grants the lands and titles to Lancel Lannister.  But Lancel renounces his lands and titles, and walks away, rendering the proclamation moot, and leaving the lands and titles in possession of Ami and her mom, who are plausibly the Darry heirs.  They are also plausibly the people Lancel INTENDED to leave his lands and titles to.

-- Possession is nine tenths of the Law.

-- The Lannisters are about to have really BIG problems on their hands.  Dorne and the Sandsnakes and Young Griff are coming.  They do not have time for this nonsense any more, and who knows how the dust will settle.

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

People seem to lose interest in the rules of succession if it means going down the female line, especially more than once. (Robb did.) Genna could say, if the Darrys are that important, my grandsons are half Darry, but Ami's sons (if she has any) will only be a quarter Darry.

This makes no sense.  Genna's son's wife and Ami's mom are SISTERS, and Ami's mom is OLDER.  No logic gives Genna's son's wife a better claim than Ami's mom.  And Ami's mom and Ami are in actual possession of the castle.

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I genuinely did not know that! How did sweet Ami have such a rotten brother?

Nothing against Ami, but I have no proof she is a particularly good person. 

I guess she has good taste in husbands (assuming her parents gave her a choice), as she is the widow of a man who died trying to take down Ser Gregor.

I had to check to be sure, but Little Walder was indeed the more rotten of the two Walder boys at Winterfell (so confusing).  But people make their own choices in life.

[Evolett]

On 6/29/2023 at 11:06 PM, Seams said:

At this mad tea party, Olenna is trying to turn Sansa into the Lady of Highgarden, bride of the heir to Highgarden, Willas Tyrell. So Sansa would become, essentially, the goddess of the earth's fertility or queen of the Westeros equivalent of the Garden of Eden. In a way, she would be the heir of Renly, because Renly had bedded Ser Loras Tyrell. The flaw in the Renly / Loras love match, insofar as we are examining the fertility symbolism, is that there were no eggs in the relationship. Renly had the option of bedding Margaery, but didn't get around to it.

This, in relation to the buttery. Coming at it from a different angle, my feeling is the buttery is connected to the horned god archetype but couldn't quite find a direct connection, so I've hesitated to put forward any thoughts on the subject. Now I've had an insight that works, linking the buttery to the horned god.  

The following comment prompted me to consider other uses of the word "butt." There are quite a number of different ways in which the word is used, meaning completely different things. The main ones (which the author also uses) are relevant to the horned god image.

On 6/27/2023 at 6:48 PM, Frey family reunion said:

While GRRM has a passage where someone is sent to the “buttery” to get butter and cheese, a buttery is not a place where butter or dairy is stored.  Or I suppose, it could be stored there, but that’s not technically the purpose.

Buttery is an English term taken from the french word, boterie.  Which in turn is derived the Latin, bota, which means casks.  

It’s basically a storeroom.  Where the barrels are kept.  

• Buttery / butt - a storeroom for barrels and casks / butts
• Butt - the buttocks 
• Archery butts - targets for archery practice
• to be the butt of a joke
• to butt: with the head; also specific to horned animals who fight by butting their horned heads together

There may also be wordplay on butter and to batter (beat) and batter (dough). Pia of the buttery has her teeth smashed in by Gregor and the women who receive or want heads generally suffer battering (just remembered that Brienne too is linked to severed heads, the whispering heads of Crackclaw Point - and she hates roses). 

Quote

Pretty Pia from the buttery was a slut who was working her way through every knight in the castle.

 .....

“Pia saw something in the buttery last night.” Arya made a rude noise. Pia was always seeing things in the buttery. Usually they were men. “Can I have a tart?” she asked. “You baked a whole tray.” (Arya to Hotpie)

Jamie gives us an indirect horned god reference when he referes to Bonifer Hasty as Baelor Butthole. Baelor the Blessed was the only Targ king to wear a crown of flowers, much like the Gardener Kings did in times of peace = Garth the Green reference. 

Then there's this in relation to Amerei:

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Lady Amerei’s mother is a Darry. Our uncle thought she’d help Lancel win the Darry smallfolk.” “How, by fucking them? You know why they call her Gatehouse Ami? She raises her portcullis for every knight who happens by. Lancel had best find an armorer to make him a horned helm.”

 

Tyrion is told to pretend to be Jorah's butt boy or is too ugly to be Bokkoko’s butt boy. As it happens, Tyrion was stored in a cask (which must have come from a buttery) for the first leg of his journey to freedom after dispatching his father and escaping King's Landing. Cersei wants Tyrion dead and the heads of various dwarves are brought to her by people hoping to cash in on the reward.  Master armourer Salloreon wants to craft a demon-head helm for Tyrion, complete with horns:

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The scales gilded bright as the sun, the plate enameled a deep Lannister crimson. I would suggest a demon’s head for a helm, crowned with tall golden horns.

 

Horned men are also very much linked to fools or being fooled.

There is Patchface with his belled and antlered bucket for a helm. Cersei wanted Robert who Ned described as a "Horned God," "horned," and indeed succeeded in cuckolding him, being horned in this instance being synonymous with the cuckolded husband.

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When her brother returned he asked her if she wanted Robert dead. “No,” she had replied, “I want him horned.” She liked to think that was the night when Joffrey was conceived.

There is added emphasis here regarding Robert being horned or cuckolded by reference to the night Joff is conceived.

And from Stannis: The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him.

Tyrion thought he was cuckolded by Tysha and ended up being "horned" by Shae. 

Then there is his "goatship," Vargo Hoat who wears his goat helm like a horned god and is the head of the "mummers" that Pia sleeps with. He also wants butter and cheese from the buttery. 

Quote

Run to the buttery; his goatship will be wanting butter and cheese. Wake up Pia and tell her she’d best be nimble for once, if she wants to keep both of her feet.”

 

 

Butterbumps gives us a few more clues to the butt / horned god motif. 

On 6/29/2023 at 11:06 PM, Seams said:

Butterbumps juggles oranges, including bouncing one off his rump and eating one whole, slapping his cheek and then blowing orange seeds out of his nose. So there are some seeds for us to consider as part of this larger fertility motif.

Butterbumps brings forth an egg that Sansa "hatches," butts / bumps oranges with his butt and distributes seeds. Butterbumps "fathers" the chicks Sansa "hatches." On his head he wears a coxcomb. A coxcomb is a kind of jester's hat but it's also the term for the fleshy "comb" growing from the head of cocks. Coxcomb, cockscomb, cuckold. Seems to me GRRM had a field day with this.

Also important is the horned god's connection to hunting and to archery, another butt reference. 

So what is the precise connection between the buttery and the horned god? Well, though the buttery was formerly a storehouse for wines, it later came to be used for all kinds of food produce and later still included the kitchen as well. But GRRM mentions it mainly in connection with dairy products and that's the key. Dairy products, true milk products, are produced by horned animals. Cattle, sheep, goats, reindeer, buffalo, camels. Less common animals that don't have horns but are also used as milk givers are horses and donkeys. 

 

On 6/29/2023 at 11:06 PM, Seams said:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the seeds Butterbumps produces for Sansa are an indication that she will be the "mother" of the next Aegon. I know, I know - not the literal mother and fruit seeds cannot impregnate a human but this is literature and I am the magic literary analysis fairy. My thread, my rules.

You're so good at this! Consider this as corroboration:

The buttery as in a storehouse is only mentioned five times in all five books, once in the Red Keep when Arya dashes through the buttery during the slaughter of Ned's household and 4 times at Harrenhal from Arya's POVs. Buttery as an adjective is mentioned twice, once by Catelyn and  again by Arya when she's given a buttery black and white robe at the HoBaW.

King's Landing and Harrenhal are intimately linked to Aegon Targaryen. Catelyn kills Walder Frey's lackwit grandson Aegon at the RW, who is dressed in a fool's hat and tinkling bells. One may not think of Aegon Targaryen in terms of a horned lord but I think as the first King of the 7K of Westeros, he was.  He may not have worn horns but dragons do have horns and his bastard half brother, Orys Baratheon, became first of the Baratheon "horned gods." It's interesting that Catelyn and Arya are linked to the buttery, Catelyn indirectly to Aegon through the latter's burning of the home of her ancestors the Whents, her killing of Aegon Frey and her thoughts on Robb:

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Her son had won two great victories, smashing Jaime Lannister in the Whispering Wood and routing his leaderless host outside the walls of Riverrun in the Battle of the Camps, but from the way some of his bannermen spoke of him, he might have been Aegon the Conqueror reborn.

 

So with Sansa hatching eggs for Butterbumps, I can see her being the "mother" of  the next Aegon too. 

Speaking of Aegons brings me to Daenerys. First Jon's musings on the heavens:

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We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King’s Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord;

I've long seen Khal Drogo as the "Stallion," the "Horned Lord" of the south. He brings all the attributes of the position to the table - leader and unbeaten warrior, hunter, virility, everything except what Garth Greenhand was also known for - agriculture. He is also compared to Aegon the Dragonlord and he provides the seed that will contribute to waking the dragon. In relation to the dairy motif, the Dothraki love their fermented horse milk!
Is Daenerys now a "horned goddess?" 

 

Lord Butterwell: Aegon the Unworthy gave Lord Butterwell a dragon egg in return for access to his three maiden daughters it is said. In fact, Lord Butterwell and his first wife had no fertility problems - they had six children. And then he marries one of the fertile Freys. This is what is said of Walder Frey's daughter:

Quote

It was rumored that she was married off after her younger brother caught her having intimate relations with a servant, a scullion at the Twins. The story was told that they were found in the kitchens on the marble slab where dough is rolled out, both naked and covered in flour. At the wedding's bedding, Ser Duncan the Tall was volunteered to carry her upstairs to the bedchamber. Men made ribald jokes about "flouring her up and kneading her well" while they disrobed her.

Flour/flower wordplay as well as "kneading her well" as one would knead batter or dough.

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Evolett

[LongRider]

One might say, the Frey daughter wasn't married until after she floured.   (I'll see myself out)

[Seams]

2 hours ago, Evolett said:

• Buttery / butt - a storeroom for barrels and casks / butts
• Butt - the buttocks 

Excellent work, Holmes!

I think this also brings us back to the topic by helping us to tie Ami and Pia together on another level: Pia is from a buttery, and Ami is a Darry heir!

(I don't know GRRM personally, but I'm pretty sure this is how his mind works. No shortage of potty jokes.)

And "Baelor Butthole" (Bonifer Hasty) sends Pia away from Harrenhal. Let the wild rumpus start!

2 hours ago, Evolett said:

I've long seen Khal Drogo as the "Stallion," the "Horned Lord" of the south. He brings all the attributes of the position to the table - leader and unbeaten warrior, hunter, virility, everything except what Garth Greenhand was also known for - agriculture. He is also compared to Aegon the Dragonlord and he provides the seed that will contribute to waking the dragon. In relation to the dairy motif, the Dothraki love their fermented horse milk!
Is Daenerys now a "horned goddess?" 

Drogo's fatal wound is a cut on his breast that slices off his nipple. No milk for the Khal, but he does give off blood from the wound.

Quote

Khal Drogo waved him away. "I need no man's help," he said, in a voice proud and hard. He stood, unaided, towering over them all. A fresh wave of blood ran down his breast, from where Ogo's arakh had cut off his nipple. 

AGoT, Daenerys VII

When they were alone, Ser Jorah drew his dagger. Deftly, with a delicacy surprising in such a big man, he began to scrape away the black leaves and dried blue mud from Drogo's chest. The plaster had caked hard as the mud walls of the Lamb Men, and like those walls it cracked easily. Ser Jorah broke the dry mud with his knife, pried the chunks from the flesh, peeled off the leaves one by one. A foul, sweet smell rose from the wound, so thick it almost choked her. The leaves were crusted with blood and pus, Drogo's breast black and glistening with corruption.

AGoT, Daenerys VIII

The stallion kicked and reared as Rakharo, Quaro, and Aggo pulled him close to the tub where the khal floated like one already dead, pus and blood seeping from his wound to stain the bathwaters.

AGoT, Daenerys VIII

The wound on his breast was as healed as it would ever be, the scar that covered it grey and red and hideous.

AGoT, Daenerys IX

So Dany may have to find a lover who has milk symbolism: Jon Snow has been to the source of the Milkwater (he sees Mance's camp from a cliff overlooking the river) and he is a milk brother through Willa - similar to Willas, the off-stage heir to Garth Greenhand. 

2 hours ago, Evolett said:

Buttery is an English term taken from the french word, boterie.  Which in turn is derived the Latin, bota, which means casks.  

It’s basically a storeroom.  Where the barrels are kept.  

This may explain why Olenna Redwyne Tyrell is a key player in all of this fertility mumbo jumbo - she carries the wine symbolism and seems to direct Butterbumps as well as the entire Tyrell household populated with fertility symbols. Maybe she is like the mother of Dionysus? I've assumed that Tyrion is supposed to be a Dionysus parallel, because he drinks so much wine. But I'm not feeling that kind of maternal connection between him and Olenna. I could be wrong, though. 

Maybe the wine connection to "butts" is sort of the older generation. The dairy connection is the next generation. All are part of keeping the fertility cycle running properly. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Seams

[LongRider]

8 minutes ago, Seams said:

Ami is a Darry heir!

You win with the best pun of the day!     

[Springwatch]

On 7/2/2023 at 10:46 PM, Gilbert Green said:

-- Kings are not omnipotent; the laws of inheritance still matter.  Joffrey needs the loyalty of the nobles, which he might lose if he were to say things like "I can seize your lands any time I want to".  Which is a good reason why Joffrey does not put it that way.  Instead, he lies and says there are no heirs.

-- It is NOT true that there are no trueborn heirs of Darry blood; at least it is only true if you ignore the female line; which is not actually the law according to the evidence we have.   So at the very least, this proclamation has a defective "whereas clause".

It's an interesting point. This dilemma is built in to the game of thrones: the ruling clan must empower itself and reward its allies with castles and lordships etc - but doing it builds a faction of losers, and everyone else who missed out. The Lannisters can only hand out castles if the majority believe in their right to do so - push it too far and the whole house of cards falls down.

In hindsight - that quote about Darry heirs looks a bit suspicious, like the author's nudging us to look for heirs. There's no real need for it - he could have left us to assume Darry is a prize of war which the Darrys lost as traitors to the crown (which is pretty much what happened).

I don't know why Darry is so important to GRRM. It's a bit of a plot hub, like the Inn at the Crossroads. Some symbolic meaning, I guess.

On 7/2/2023 at 10:46 PM, Gilbert Green said:

Nothing against Ami, but I have no proof she is a particularly good person. 

I'm biased in her favour, because I really don't like the harsh puritanism of Lancel, Bonifer and Jaime.

As to goodness - I can only say the Lancel-Ami-Kevan combo is clearly much better for the people of Darry than anything Little Walder could come up with, and likely better than any random Bronn-type or Lannister cousin who might get the castle next. If Lancel genuinely wanted to do good, he should have stayed where he was.