Tracing Bloodlines - Speculations on House Dondarrion

[Hippocras]

House Dondarrion is a big mystery. Lots of gaps in what we know about them, and yet a very very large collection of hints that they have strong relevance to this series.

First there is Beric. Why was he the one to come back to life that way? Next there is Jena Dondarrion who would have been Baelor's queen. Why was she considered the best match for the heir to the throne in a family obsessed with bloodlines? They had a presence at the Golden Wedding, and one was a companion to queen Alysanne, both of which suggest possible family connections we are not aware of yet. Finally, there most be some hidden reason why Ned chose Beric to lead the mission to bring Gregor Clegane to justice. His performance at the tournament was not enough. Ned felt like he knew Beric and could trust him. Why?

Noone will be able to prove anything here. Please do not demand proof for other people's suggestions and ideas! Nothing is more pointless in speculation threads. Just let's work together to figure out how Beric is connected to Ned and/or to Catelyn, probably by blood ties, and also what relationship they had to the ruling dynasties (Targaryen and Baratheon).

Edited July 12, 2023 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

Regarding Ned and Beric: If they had blood ties not by marriage, one possibility may be via a daughter of Branda Stark and Harrold Rogers. House Rogers is in the Stormlands, so if they had a daughter, she may have been Beric's mother or even grandmother. The sons of Artos Stark (Brandon and Benjen) are farther removed in the Stark family tree, but both are listed as having had children, and we don't know who they were or where they went. We also don't know where Artos's sister Alysanne Stark ended up. Will she be the one to show up in the Dondarrion family tree?

Alternately, it could pass via House Royce, and a daughter of Jocelyn Stark and Benedict Royce became a Dondarrion.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

The House Tully family tree is almost as much of a mystery as House Dondarrion but not quite. We know enough to suspect a likely female Targaryen ancestor, probably a sister of Aegon V who became the mother of Celia Tully along with the subsequent House Tully line. The other possible route to Tagaryen ancestry in House Tully is via Baela and Alyn Velaryon's children, probably passing through House Blackwood first. This is strongly suspected because of the friendship of Alyn Velaryon and Benjicot Blackwood, as well as the integration of the Blackwood family in the courts of Daeron II, Aerys I, and of course Aegon V.

But how House Dondarrion relates to all that is extremely ambiguous. The only thing we KNOW Beric and Catelyn have in common is red hair. Both are "kissed by fire".

[Corvo the Crow]

Beric is a brave and honorable man, excepting Loras he is perhaps the lord of highest standing there, he is 22 years old so not too old but at least some experinece and he grew up in a martial culture, yes entire Westerosi culture is martial but Marchers are the most martial of them all. Small scale Dornish raids probably occur all the time in the area so one of the Marcher Lords is exactly what you need against a band of brigands. Ned did the best possible choice there but there should've been two more people (and retinue) to improve on it. First improvement is on a political point, he really ought to have sent Loras, not as a commander but perhaps a second in command to Beric, the second improvement is to send a Kingsguard member to show more authority. I believe his betrothed, Allyria is the daughter of Ashara with a Stark so if Ned has an idea he might've wanted to promote his son/nephew in law to be, you can add to the suspected connection part but I doubt it. 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[Hippocras]

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Beric is a brave and honorable man, excepting Loras he is perhaps the lord of highest standing there, he is 22 years old so not too old but at least some experinece and he grew up in a martial culture, yes entire Westerosi culture is martial but Marchers are the most martial of them all. Small scale Dornish raids probably occur all the time in the area so one of the Marcher Lords is exactly what you need against a band of brigands. Ned did the best possible choice there but there should've been two more people (and retinue) to improve on it. First improvement is on a political point, he really ought to have sent Loras, not as a commander but perhaps a second in command to Beric, the second improvement is to send a Kingsguard member to show more authority. I believe his betrothed, Allyria is the daughter of Ashara with a Stark so if Ned has an idea he might've wanted to promote his son/nephew in law to be, you can add to the suspected connection part but I doubt it. 

If Allyria Dayne is not Ned Dayne's aunt, then there was ZERO reason to keep her identity hidden during the reign of Robert Baratheon unless she is a Targaryen. So, if Allyria is not Ned's aunt that means, I can say with absolute certainty, that she is the daughter of either Rhaegar or Aerys. What she is NOT is the daughter of any Stark.

I am pretty tired of reiterating over and over and over again that "looked TO" does NOT mean "looked AT". It is not the same thing. All theories suggesting that either Ned or Brandon had a bastard with Ashara are based in that fundamental misunderstanding of the English language.

So, if we are proposing that Allyria is anyone other than Ned Dayne's aunt, then we have to conclude that she is being hidden for exactly the same reason that Jon was hidden: she is a Targaryen, and both Ned and the Daynes were by then aware that King Robert and/or Tywin Lannister were certain to murder her if they knew she existed. A bastard of Ned or Brandon would never be hidden in that way. The Daynes are DORNISH. Bastards are not stigmatized in Dorne. A bastard of a Stark is nothing at all that needs to be hidden there.

 

Now, on to things more relevant to this thread: While I mostly agree to your points above about Beric, what you seem to forget about or ignore is that there is magic in this series. So this is not about Beric's qualifications. It is about his blood. What is it about who he is, by birth, not by nature, that makes him special enough to be revived, and that connects him, by magic (probably blood) to Catelyn, leading to her being the one he was able to pass on his annimating life force to. I am not looking for resumes here! I am trying to understand what is going on with the magic.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

If Allyria Dayne is not Ned Dayne's aunt, then there was ZERO reason to keep her identity hidden during the reign of Robert Baratheon unless she is a Targaryen. So, if Allyria is not Ned's aunt that means, I can say with absolute certainty, that she is the daughter of either Rhaegar or Aerys. What she is NOT is the daughter of any Stark.

 

There's a HUGE reason to keep her identity as she would be a BASTARD. Dorne not caring about bastards is pure BS. Sure they may not look that badly on having bastards as some other regions do but how many noble bastards in Dorne we have seen to have married especially married to someone of Beric's stature?

 

5 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I am pretty tired of reiterating over and over and over again that "looked TO" does NOT mean "looked AT". It is not the same thing. All theories suggesting that either Ned or Brandon had a bastard with Ashara are based in that fundamental misunderstanding of the English language.

 

I am pretty tired of reiterating that talk about Ned and Ashara having a thing comes not just from Ned's soldiers or Cersei or even Barristan (if you take Stark as Ned) but from Ned (Dayne) himself who had it from Allyria. Why tell such a story if nothing existed at all? 

[Hippocras]

22 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I am pretty tired of reiterating that talk about Ned and Ashara having a thing comes not just from Ned's soldiers or Cersei or even Barristan (if you take Stark as Ned) but from Ned (Dayne) himself who had it from Allyria. Why tell such a story if nothing existed at all? 

Don't get me wrong: I fully believe there was some connection between Ashara and the Starks at Harrenhal. Maybe Ned and Ashara were even in love. But Ned did nothing to "dishonour" her, and while Brandon was apparently promiscuous, if he had slept with a girl Ned had a crush on then that would have been rather damaging for Ned's relationship with his brother, and there is absolutely no sign of any tension there.

Ashara was Dornish, and bastards are not a problem in Dorne. Targaryens in the time of Robert Baratheon though.... well that would be an actual problem requiring a secret identity.

 

I would really rather avoid turing this into an Ashara Dayne thread. So please make a new thread if you want to discuss it further. Here we are discussing House Dondarrion, not House Dayne.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Hippocras

[Jon Fossoway]

As per Eddard choosing or trusting Beric Dondarrion the mission of capturing Gregor: Eddard did have some ties with the Dondarrions, at least indirectly. The Daynes and the Dondarrions are linked via the younger sibling of Arthur and Ashara, both very known to the Starks. Even though Allyria never did got to marry Beric, the bethrotal at least says that the marcher family and the dornish one were close. So Eddard treats Beric with some familiarity and trusts him enough to give him a hard mission. This interpretation may seem convoluted, though.

The more close one to me is that George envisioned a half-alive and mysterious knight called the lord of thunder and lightning and then slowly went on seeding the figure until he fleshed it out in Beric of House Dondarrion. Then he put him in motion when Eddard needed to capture Gregor. Myself being a short story writer, I do have that kind of method: you catch the idea and slowly integrate into the main story you are building. There are a lot of more "cerebral" writers that are more architects when building a plot, but some of us are guided by ideas that sometime assault your mind. I do actually believe this is also George's case.

[Hippocras]

4 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

As per Eddard choosing or trusting Beric Dondarrion the mission of capturing Gregor: Eddard did have some ties with the Dondarrions, at least indirectly. The Daynes and the Dondarrions are linked via the younger sibling of Arthur and Ashara, both very known to the Starks. Even though Allyria never did got to marry Beric, the bethrotal at least says that the marcher family and the dornish one were close. So Eddard treats Beric with some familiarity and trusts him enough to give him a hard mission. This interpretation may seem convoluted, though.

The more close one to me is that George envisioned a half-alive and mysterious knight called the lord of thunder and lightning and then slowly went on seeding the figure until he fleshed it out in Beric of House Dondarrion. Then he put him in motion when Eddard needed to capture Gregor. Myself being a short story writer, I do have that kind of method: you catch the idea and slowly integrate into the main story you are building. There are a lot of more "cerebral" writers that are more architects when building a plot, but some of us are guided by ideas that sometime assault your mind. I do actually believe this is also George's case.

Yes, sure. But there is an element of blood magic here somewhere. And blood magic works by blood ties, not betrothals. I know that something is up with Allyria, but her being betrothed to Beric is unlikely to be the reason why he magically came back to life, not once but 6 times. It is unlikely to be the reason why his blood is able to light swords on fire. And it does not explain why he chose long-dead Catelyn to pass on his last life to.

[SaffronLady]

Maybe we are looking at this the wrong way and should try to find a link between Dondarrions and the Tullys.

[Hippocras]

1 minute ago, SaffronLady said:

Maybe we are looking at this the wrong way and should try to find a link between Dondarrions and the Tullys.

There may well be one. I am open to your hyptheses. Of course, both family trees are quite bare so very hard to pin down.

[SaffronLady]

5 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I am open to your hyptheses

I don't have a hypothesis, throwing the possibility out just felt better than watching the thread derail.

[Hippocras]

16 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

I don't have a hypothesis, throwing the possibility out just felt better than watching the thread derail.

yeah, sorry about that. Ashara causes a lot of general derailing, in-series and in the real world.

 

Anyway, it is all guesswork, and the math is difficult given how different in age mothers and fathers can sometimes be. Still, Beric was born in 276 (4 years before the tourney at Harrenhal). Catelyn was born in 264ish, so she is at least 10 years older. Her father was born in 238-240. We don't know who Hoster's mother was, so that is the first possible point of connection in Beric and Catelyn's family trees. This unnamed grandmother of Catelyn would have been born in or before 226 (probably a few years before as that would be very young to be a mother). I am going to guess that this Tully grandmother was a close blood relative of queen Betha Blackwood.

We also don't know if Hoster Tully had any sisters, but it doesn't seem so. We probably would have heard them mentioned if so.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Hippocras

[James Steller]

7 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Next there is Jena Dondarrion who would have been Baelor's queen. Why was she considered the best match for the heir to the throne in a family obsessed with bloodlines?

She was from the region of Westeros which was most strongly opposed to having Dorne join the realm. And she was married to the half-Dornish crown Prince. Clearly it was a political move on Daeron’s part to appease the Dornish Marches.

[Hippocras]

44 minutes ago, James Steller said:

She was from the region of Westeros which was most strongly opposed to having Dorne join the realm. And she was married to the half-Dornish crown Prince. Clearly it was a political move on Daeron’s part to appease the Dornish Marches.

A valid point. Still, for blood magic to work we are talking either about "king's blood" or actual blood ties. So while the political argument certainly makes sense, it seems likely that is not all there is to it. I am curious about House Dondarrion's relationship to House Penrose in the Stormlands context.

[Hippocras]

Something likely relevant is that Lucinda Penrose was considered enough of a threat to Myrielle Peake's chances that her father Unwin Peake had Lucinda attacked and disfigured. The maidens considered top threats at that ball should be on a watch list for ties to House Targaryen (and so House Velaryon more indirectly) that remain to be revealed IMO.

Lucinda likely joined the Faith, but she had a brother whose bloodline was the same as hers.  If we assume some kind of indirect family link to House Targaryen there we are looking at the time before the Dance. Which means we must be looking at either Aegon the Uncrowned or Saera Targaryen as the relevant ancestor or, longer shot, a bastard of Aemon. I say that because most of Jaehaerys and Alysanne's many children died without issue, and the descendants of Baela and Rhaena did not exist yet. The selection is therefore small, unless you keep in mind how closely linked House Velaryon was to House Targaryen by blood, and how many of them would have married into Crownlands and Stormlands Houses, such as House Dondarrion and House Penrose.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Hippocras

[James Steller]

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

A valid point. Still, for blood magic to work we are talking either about "king's blood" or actual blood ties. So while the political argument certainly makes sense, it seems likely that is not all there is to it. I am curious about House Dondarrion's relationship to House Penrose in the Stormlands context.

Who said it has to be blood magic? It’s not like the Martells are viewed as particulate magical or kingly. Targaryens don’t just wed people for their blood purity. Daeron was a practical man. He would have wanted to appease his subjects to soften the blow of progress. It didn’t fully work, clearly, but I don’t think there was anything else at play. 

[Hippocras]

33 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Who said it has to be blood magic? It’s not like the Martells are viewed as particulate magical or kingly. Targaryens don’t just wed people for their blood purity. Daeron was a practical man. He would have wanted to appease his subjects to soften the blow of progress. It didn’t fully work, clearly, but I don’t think there was anything else at play. 

Because Beric lights swords on fire with his blood.

[James Steller]

28 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Because Beric lights swords on fire with his blood.

That doesn’t mean all the Dondarrions are magical, or even that they have king’s blood. It’s not explained how he can do that, far as I remember. I wouldn’t be surprised if that was Thoros’ doing moreso than Beric’s.

[Hippocras]

16 minutes ago, James Steller said:

That doesn’t mean all the Dondarrions are magical, or even that they have king’s blood. It’s not explained how he can do that, far as I remember. I wouldn’t be surprised if that was Thoros’ doing moreso than Beric’s.

No, it is not explained. That is what this thread is for. But I think bloodlines are a key part of the answer. I am willing to find out eventually that I am wrong of course, but I suspect more complete family tree would prove me right.