A Red Woman, A Second Son (who would be a Usurper Uncle)

[Tradecraft]

Stannis:

 

You know this story. 

 

His name is Stannis. He is a second son. He is obsessed with his nephew, in particular this nephew's legal claims (to land, to wealth and power)*. 

 

We the reader BELIEVE Joffrey is not legitimate, but that is not important. What is important is that Stannis is Joffrey's uncle. Joffrey is young (and the most vulnerable he will ever be in his life). 

 

Stannis brings to the North a "red" woman. Men say she's essentially his "wife". She worships a foreign religion, alien and hostile to the gods of the North. 

 

But he his not alone. As they say in star wars... There is another. 

 

Tyrion.

 

You know this story as well. 

 

Tyrion is a second son. 

 

He is also an uncle. This uncle toys with the idea (but as yet does not commit to the deed) of murdering and overthrowing his nephew. He considers the murder of Joffrey and placing an amiable younger brother who he could rule though instead. A usurpation... You might say. 

 

While we the reader are biased FOR Tyrion because we follow his POV chapters, I can tell you as an uncle it is NOT NORMAL to think about murdering your nephew. And if you doubt that Tyrion is a would-be usurper Uncle... Why else was he reading about Valyrian machines of war IN PEACE TIME (Robert's reign has been peaceful for over a decade now)? This is a clear reference to Shakespeare's Richard III who says he cannot enjoy peace time. 

 

Richard III's famous "Winter of discontent" speech

 

"...But I, that am not shaped for sportive tricks,

Nor made to court an amorous looking-glass;

I, that am rudely stamp'd, and want love's majesty

To strut before a wanton ambling nymph;

I, that am curtail'd of this fair proportion,

Cheated of feature by dissembling nature,

Deformed, unfinish'd, sent before my time

Into this breathing world, scarce half made up,

And that so lamely and unfashionable

That dogs bark at me as I halt by them;

Why, I, in this weak piping time of peace,

Have no delight to pass away the time,

Unless to spy my shadow in the sun

And descant on mine own deformity:

And therefore, since I cannot prove a lover,

To entertain these fair well-spoken days,

I am determined to prove a villain" 

 

 I admit however that this is subjective and that some uncles may have good reason to have these thoughts....

 

If we are to believe the results of his trial by combat, he succeeded in the murder of his nephew (for which he contemplated and threatened to do (before witnesses) and was formally accused). 

 

Again, it does not matter if Tyrion ACTUALLY killed Joffrey. What matters is that he contemplated it. He threatened it before witnesses. And was accused. This puts him into the archetype GRRM has made. 

 

What matters are Tyrion's incentives which place him in competition with his own young nephew. What matters is that Tyrion fits an existing pattern of second sons, who contemplate usurping their young nephews. 

 

Lastly, Tyrion fits this pattern in another bizarre way. He married a red haired girl. A Tully girl to be precise. 

 

 

 

The Bloodstone Emperor

 

The Bloodstone Emperor is a usurper. We know very little of him. 

 

We know he usurps from his sister, the Amethyst Empress. 

 

We also know he takes a Tiger Woman (aka a "Cat") for his bride...

 

 

Arnold Karstark

 

This uncle tries to usurp his nephew (the rightfull lord Rickard Karstark). He declares for Stannis on an attempt to get the rightful heir killed by his Lannister captors. Furthermore, once this rightful heir was killed it would make Alys Karstark the heir. She would then be married off to Arnolf's son. 

 

We do not have many details about the Karstark family tree but it's highly likely that Arnold Karstark is a second son as well.

 

Arnolf is another example of these re occuring usurper uncles. For all we know he is also a second son... But we're not certain. 

 

 

What's the point? What does all this mean? 

 

 

 

J'accuse... Eddard Stark!

 

 

Who else took a red woman "to wife"? A Tully girl? 

 

Who else took her North? 

 

A woman with gods alien to the North... ?

 

Was she associated with "Cats" (You could call her a "Tiger Mom" by her personality type... Not for any weird reasons)?

 

Ned Stark... I accuse you of usurping your blood nephew Jon Snow. Or is it John Stark? 

 

Jon Snow... Catelyn found it strange indeed that Ned declared the boy his bastard... "For all the North to see". 

 

Jon Snow... They told you that bastards "grow faster" than trueborn sons... To hide your true birthdate...Jon Snow my boy, you know nothing... Not even your own birthday... Quite possibly you don't even know your true name...

 

Jon Snow... Who dreams of his place being in the Winterfell crypts... And not dragons or of Kindslanding or the Iron Throne... As would befit the son of R+L = J**. 

 

Jon Snow... Who Catelyn and Ned Stark both dreaded as a contender for Winterfell against their own children. Why would they both dread this boy and his claims...? Unless they trumped the claims of the children of Ned and Catelyn? 

 

Ned, Ned, Ned... You've been a bad boy***. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*I believe GRRM likes the usurper uncle trope. It's villanized in literature but it's very understandable from a human level. Consider; you are an adult man, a baby boy is heir to something valuable. Why not take it from him? He cannot defend himself or oven defend the thing of value (a lordship, a Kingdom, anything of value). You only have a small window of time to decide before the child grows to adulthood and the opportunity is lost forever. It's easier to understand than most "villains". 

 

**Jon Snow has nothing in common with Rhaegar. No songs. No prophecy. He's a little angry at being a bastard but not Rhaegar's famous "doom and gloom".

 

***All these years I wondered how Ned was a "Grey" (morally) character. GRRM famously once stated he only makes characters that are a shade of grey. There are no black or white characters, just shades of grey...Just like real life. But how would Ned be grey? Unless...

 

 

Originally posted by here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/comments/13zzoms/spoilers_extended_a_red_woman_a_second_son_who/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2

Edited July 7, 2023 by Tradecraft

[Craving Peaches]

There's certainly a usurping uncle pattern with the first few characters but I'm not convinced about Ned. I'm not sure how Jon would have a better claim, unless someone like Brandon was his father and Brandon married a woman and conceived with her before he died. This seems unlikely as Brandon was already supposed to marry Catelyn and although he sleeps around he never marries any of the women. It's possible that he did, but I can't see any hints towards it, so if this was the twist it would come completely out of the left field. And Ned has no reason to want to usurp, he says in his POV that he was never meant to be Lord of Winterfell or something to that effect, so if Jon was Brandon's son it is more likely Ned would serve as a regent until he came of age. The only way I could see Ned still become Lord of Winterfell in this scenario is if he didn't realise Jon was Brandon's. I guess theoretically he could have had relations with the same woman Brandon married, but then he would probably find out she had relations (and married) Brandon so would have reason to doubt whether Jon was his or not. While the symbolism would be nice, I can't see the logistics of this working. And Jon being the real heir to Winterfell all along would, in my opinion, take something away from his character. Especially his weird dream where he beheads Robb and all his 'treacherous bastard' desires are on full display via dreams as wish fulfilment.

And the Tullys, though red-haired, also have strong water associations (Riverlands, sigil is a fish, blue eyes, Catelyn is described as a fish at one point) and while they don't worship the Old Gods, the Seven are not alien gods in the way R'hlorr is, since they are the majority faith of the continent and worshipped already in the North by the Manderlys. They don't really line up with Melisandre who is 'pure' fire association in my opinion. 

To add to your collection of characters for the usurping uncle pattern, we potentially have Daenerys usurping her nephew Aegon. Now Aegon may not be the real Aegon, but as with Joffrey and Tyrion, people may well believe he is Daenerys' nephew. He is also young in the sense he is inexperienced, a little bit naïve, and somewhat sheltered.

[Corvo the Crow]

29 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

There's certainly a usurping uncle pattern with the first few characters but I'm not convinced about Ned. I'm not sure how Jon would have a better claim, unless someone like Brandon was his father and Brandon married a woman and conceived with her before he died. This seems unlikely as Brandon was already supposed to marry Catelyn and although he sleeps around he never marries any of the women. It's possible that he did, but I can't see any hints towards it, so if this was the twist it would come completely out of the left field. And Ned has no reason to want to usurp, he says in his POV that he was never meant to be Lord of Winterfell or something to that effect, so if Jon was Brandon's son it is more likely Ned would serve as a regent until he came of age. The only way I could see Ned still become Lord of Winterfell in this scenario is if he didn't realise Jon was Brandon's. I guess theoretically he could have had relations with the same woman Brandon married, but then he would probably find out she had relations (and married) Brandon so would have reason to doubt whether Jon was his or not. While the symbolism would be nice, I can't see the logistics of this working. And Jon being the real heir to Winterfell all along would, in my opinion, take something away from his character. Especially his weird dream where he beheads Robb and all his 'treacherous bastard' desires are on full display via dreams as wish fulfilment.

And the Tullys, though red-haired, also have strong water associations (Riverlands, sigil is a fish, blue eyes, Catelyn is described as a fish at one point) and while they don't worship the Old Gods, the Seven are not alien gods in the way R'hlorr is, since they are the majority faith of the continent and worshipped already in the North by the Manderlys. They don't really line up with Melisandre who is 'pure' fire association in my opinion. 

To add to your collection of characters for the usurping uncle pattern, we potentially have Daenerys usurping her nephew Aegon. Now Aegon may not be the real Aegon, but as with Joffrey and Tyrion, people may well believe he is Daenerys' nephew. He is also young in the sense he is inexperienced, a little bit naïve, and somewhat sheltered.

Duh, silly, Haven’t you read the Wall chapters after Stannis arrived? Who ever gets Val gets Winterfell. Jon has a better claim than Ned because by rights it belongs to Lyanna through the  matrilineal House of the Weirwood that Val also belongs.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[Alester Florent]

10 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

While we the reader are biased FOR Tyrion because we follow his POV chapters, I can tell you as an uncle it is NOT NORMAL to think about murdering your nephew...

 I admit however that this is subjective and that some uncles may have good reason to have these thoughts....

If my nephew were as much of a shit as Joffrey I can imagine my opinion of him would be very different!

There is also I guess a potential difference given the existence (or otherwise) of inheritances and relative position. In my case, I am the eldest child and have no children of my own, so it would make sense to treat my sister's kids as my "heirs" for all relevant purposes. But if she were older than me, and/or if I had my own children, then they would be potential competition for any inheritance from my parents. One would hope that a generally functional family, especially in the modern age, would be able to sort this out, especially if the siblings have a decent relationship. But it's caused friction in my parents' generation because the birth order was different and some things are supposed to be male-line-inheritance and so on. And in a Westerosi context where inheritances are of critical importance, that's only going to exacerbate tensions!

As far as Tyrion goes, I don't know if he had any thoughts about murdering Joffrey before Joff was king. When he's thinking about killing him, he's not really thinking of him as a nephew, but as a tyrant and political opponent who nobody would miss apart from Cersei (who he also hates). If Joff had no power, Tyrion has no reason to consider hurting him, just as he's not actually going to hurt Tommen or Myrcella. Even after he leans into his revenge narrative in ADwD he doesn't seem to consider harming Tommen or Myrcella. 

In Stannis's case, at least, there's also the issue that his nephews aren't really his nephews. 

And it's clearly not universal nephew-hatred even for Renly given his relationship with Edric, which may be the closest he has with any of his family(!) It does really seem to boil down to Joffrey personally rather more than anything else. 

10 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

*I believe GRRM likes the usurper uncle trope. It's villanized in literature but it's very understandable from a human level. Consider; you are an adult man, a baby boy is heir to something valuable. Why not take it from him? He cannot defend himself or oven defend the thing of value (a lordship, a Kingdom, anything of value). You only have a small window of time to decide before the child grows to adulthood and the opportunity is lost forever. It's easier to understand than most "villains". 

An interesting counterfactual might be what would the situation be had the claimant been Tommen rather than Joffrey (let's assume Joff had fallen off a horse shortly before Bobbo died, or had been on the same hunting trip and been gored to death). Would Renly still feel the need to go all-in on claiming the throne, or would he prefer a regency for the more malleable and agreeable (and younger) Tommen and go down the "evil councillors" route? (an option which may have won Robb to his side). We can probably safely assume that Stannis's approach would have been the same as it was in the books, of course..

Of course, there remains the problem of Cersei and to a lesser extent the Lannisters generally. So long as Cersei is de facto regent, it doesn't really matter whether the king is Joffrey or Tommen because the policies will still be stupid and pointlessly antagonistic. But even if Cersei is removed, Joffrey is still horrendous, so taking out Cersei is only half a solution. 

[Alester Florent]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Duh, silly, Haven’t you read the Wall chapters after Stannis arrived? Who ever gets Val gets Winterfell. Jon has a better claim than Ned because by rights it belongs to Lyanna through the  matrilineal House of the Weirwood that Val also belongs.

But the Val's husband = Winterfell thing is Stannis's invention based on nothing except his attempting to fit the Free Folk into some approximation of Westerosi custom. Val is by his understanding a princess, so by uniting her with the title to Winterfell he binds the Free Folk into the existing structure of the North. This message doesn't seem to have meaningfully filtered beyond Stannis and Mel, because Selyse either doesn't understand it or is deliberately disregarding it (either is possible).

Anything about a matrilineal line relating to Lyanna or the house of the Weirwood etc. is pure speculation at this point, indeed really just fanfic.

[Tradecraft]

27 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

But the Val's husband = Winterfell thing is Stannis's invention based on nothing except his attempting to fit the Free Folk into some approximation of Westerosi custom. Val is by his understanding a princess, so by uniting her with the title to Winterfell he binds the Free Folk into the existing structure of the North. This message doesn't seem to have meaningfully filtered beyond Stannis and Mel, because Selyse either doesn't understand it or is deliberately disregarding it (either is possible).

Anything about a matrilineal line relating to Lyanna or the house of the Weirwood etc. is pure speculation at this point, indeed really just fanfic.

Matrilineal inheritance is a part of ASOIAF. I am about to write about it. 

[Craving Peaches]

45 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Would Renly still feel the need to go all-in on claiming the throne, or would he prefer a regency for the more malleable and agreeable (and younger) Tommen and go down the "evil councillors" route? (an option which may have won Robb to his side).

I'd definitely say Renly would be happy with the councilor route given his original plan was to do the same with the far less easily influenced Joffrey.

8 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

Matrilineal inheritance is a part of ASOIAF. I am about to write about it. 

You wrote a bit about it in your bronze symbolism post, didn't you? It makes sense for the Wildlings to practice matrilineal inheritance.

[Tradecraft]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'd definitely say Renly would be happy with the councilor route given his original plan was to do the same with the far less easily influenced Joffrey.

You wrote a bit about it in your bronze symbolism post, didn't you? It makes sense for the Wildlings to practice matrilineal inheritance.

I'm going deeper. Much deeper.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Tradecraft said:

I'm going deeper. Much deeper.

I'm excited! Will you be posting it on the 'general' forum rather than the WoIaF sub-forum like the bronze post? I think more people look stuff in the'general' forum... I assume of course it relates to the main series.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Tradecraft]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm excited! Will you be posting it on the 'general' forum rather than the WoIaF sub-forum like the bronze post? I think more people look stuff in the'general' forum... I assume of course it relates to the main series.

I have no idea where to post. I'll keep it in the general I guess! 

[John Suburbs]

14 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

snip

Eh, does Tyrion ever actually contemplate killing Joffrey? Bronn suggests it, and Tyrion recoils at the idea. He has plenty of negative thoughts about Joffrey, and notes that Tommen would make a better, more pliant, king (which isn't necessarily true, btw), but I don't remember Tyrion ever thinking that Joffrey should be killed, or that he should do it.

Am I wrong?

[Tradecraft]

He contemplated replacing Joff with Tommon on multiple occasions. 

[Springwatch]

4 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Matrilineal inheritance is a part of ASOIAF. I am about to write about it. 

Oh, ok. I thought you were going to say Ned cheated Jon of his birthright as the legitimate son of Rhaegar. (Would you agree with that? I do.)

In that case, Ned didn't usurp Jon personally, but he did sort of hand the Iron Throne to his buddy Robert.

[Tradecraft]

10 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Oh, ok. I thought you were going to say Ned cheated Jon of his birthright as the legitimate son of Rhaegar. (Would you agree with that? I do.)

In that case, Ned didn't usurp Jon personally, but he did sort of hand the Iron Throne to his buddy Robert.

I think it's possible and maybe probably that Ned Cheated Jon out of Winterfell. 

[Springwatch]

3 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

I think it's possible and maybe probably that Ned Cheated Jon out of Winterfell. 

Not according the laws of men. I'll wait the next part with interest. 

[Corvo the Crow]

6 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

But the Val's husband = Winterfell thing is Stannis's invention based on nothing except his attempting to fit the Free Folk into some approximation of Westerosi custom. Val is by his understanding a princess, so by uniting her with the title to Winterfell he binds the Free Folk into the existing structure of the North. This message doesn't seem to have meaningfully filtered beyond Stannis and Mel, because Selyse either doesn't understand it or is deliberately disregarding it (either is possible).

No, Jon corrects him on numerous times and Stannis keeps on calling her a princess. He isn't someone to hand out titles easily. There's more there than seems to eye or rather Jon's eye. There are some hints 

Both quotes below are from the same chapter, ASoS Jon X

This is Mance speaking about himself:

Quote

Open the gate and let them pass. Easy to say, but what must follow? Giants camping in the ruins of Winterfell? Cannibals in the wolfswood, chariots sweeping across the barrowlands, free folk stealing the daughters of shipwrights and silversmiths from White Harbor and fishwives off the Stony Shore? "Are you a true king?" Jon asked suddenly.

"I've never had a crown on my head or sat my arse on a bloody throne, if that's what you're asking," Mance replied. "My birth is as low as a man's can get, no septon's ever smeared my head with oils, I don't own any castles, and my queen wears furs and amber, not silk and sapphires. I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist. You don't become King-beyond-the-Wall because your father was. The free folk won't follow a name, and they don't care which brother was born first. They follow fighters. When I left the Shadow Tower there were five men making noises about how they might be the stuff of kings. Tormund was one, the Magnar another. The other three I slew, when they made it plain they'd sooner fight than follow."

This is Mance speaking about Dalla

Quote

Mance gave her a fond smile. "It's a wise woman I've found. A true queen." He turned back to Jon. "Go back and tell them to open their gate and let us pass. If they do, I will give them the horn, and the Wall will stand until the end of days."

Guess what Dalla and Val truly are? Wise women of sorts. 

 

7 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Anything about a matrilineal line relating to Lyanna or the house of the Weirwood etc. is pure speculation at this point, indeed really just fanfic.

No. "House of the Weirwood"  For lack of the actual name, is there. It being matrilineal is the idea because currently all individuals who have shown themselves to be possible members (Lyanna, Val and Morna) being female. 

There are several mystery knights that use the Coat of Arms or a name that's about their mother when entering tourney. One such is Aemon the Dragonknight who enters the tourney as Knight of Tears. Who is his mother? Larra Rogare of Lys. Rogares have no coat of arms, or at least had none, prior to coming Westeros because Essosi don't have them (a a side note dragon having three heads prophecies etc. are probably just BS as well due to this fact)  but Lys is heavily associated with tears, from the poison Tears of Lys to their god Weeping Lady.

 

1 hour ago, Tradecraft said:

I think it's possible and maybe probably that Ned Cheated Jon out of Winterfell. 

It would be unwilling and Lyanna herself would've been cheated too, as well as Lyarra.

[Corvo the Crow]

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

You wrote a bit about it in your bronze symbolism post, didn't you? It makes sense for the Wildlings to practice matrilineal inheritance.

Wildlings (some of them) practicing matrillineal makes sense for several reasons, premarital sex isn't no-no and even having children is ok, they have a concept of bastardry but they don't care.

 

Quote

Of special note were the sons of men of renown. Tormund took care to point them out as they went by. "The boy there is the son of Soren Shieldbreaker," he said of one tall lad. "Him with the red hair, he's Gerrick Kingsblood's get. Comes o' the line o' Raymun Redbeard, to hear him tell it. The line o' Redbeard's little brother, you want it true." Two boys looked enough alike to be twins, but Tormund insisted they were cousins, born a year apart. "One was sired by Harle the Huntsman, t'other by Harle the Handsome, both on the same woman. Fathers hate each other. I was you, I'd send one to Eastwatch and t'other to your Shadow Tower."

Can't name them but in some Germanic tribes, it was common for inheritance being from maternal uncle to nephew because it guaranteed that your heir is of your blood.

[Craving Peaches]

42 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Can't name them but in some Germanic tribes

Also the Seeresses had an influential position.

[csuszka1948]

10 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'd definitely say Renly would be happy with the councilor route given his original plan was to do the same with the far less easily influenced Joffrey.

 

I don't know if Renly is satisfied with the councilor route or just saw allying with Ned his best shot at the moment.

As far as he knows, Joffrey is the legitimate King and Ned is certainly going to support Joff as King.

The two choices are really Ned or the Lannisters and Renly obviously prefers the first, because it would allow himself to keep or elevate the position of himself and the Tyrells. Becoming a King is not a likely option when both the Starks and the Lannisters would oppose him.

[Alester Florent]

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

No, Jon corrects him on numerous times and Stannis keeps on calling her a princess. He isn't someone to hand out titles easily. There's more there than seems to eye or rather Jon's eye. There are some hints

No. "House of the Weirwood"  For lack of the actual name, is there. It being matrilineal is the idea because currently all individuals who have shown themselves to be possible members (Lyanna, Val and Morna) being female. 

 

Why would we assume that Stannis, a man who has no interest in the customs of the Free Folk and indeed is trying to force them into a Westerosi mould, has more insight into their history and culture than Jon, who shares their religion and lived among them for a time?

I'm going to need something moderately concrete to persuade me that the "house of the Weirwood", by that name or any other, is a thing that presently exists in the books, or that there's any family connection between Lyanna, Val and Morna.

Or why the assumption is that the wildlings practise matrilineal succession when all the actual examples we have (Styr, Tormund, Gerrick, Mance himself) suggest that if there's any hereditary succession at all it's patrilineal?