"...might she have looked to me instead of (Lyanna) Stark"

[Hippocras]

17 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

From your own quote it shows Ashara was not interested in Ned. 

No it doesn't. This is not a world where the women ask the men to dance. All that quote says is that Ned was too shy to ask her himself. It says nothing about her level of interest in him after they did dance.

[Corvo the Crow]

On 7/14/2023 at 1:43 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Sorry if this sounds dense, but is this meant to be a joke? I find it hard to tell without tone of voice/facial expression.

Unfortunately it isn't. She got aggressive over getting called on how her fanfic won't work. I really wasn't going to comment on this but then I saw she exhibited the same behavior in another thread, targetting @direpupy and causing the thread to get locked. Sad, really.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[Tradecraft]

8 hours ago, Hippocras said:

No it doesn't. This is not a world where the women ask the men to dance. All that quote says is that Ned was too shy to ask her himself. It says nothing about her level of interest in him after they did dance.

Did you miss the word "only"?

 

She "only" danced with him because his brother interceded. Which means she wasn't going to do it otherwise.

[Tradecraft]

22 hours ago, Castellan said:

I don’t think he would have referred to Lyanna, a woman, as 'Stark'. The contexts where people refer to others by their surname only are pretty limited, in our culture, which the book is derived from, and I think in the books, although I haven’t headed off to investigate that. Even more so for women. Men or boys might sometimes refer to fellow students or co-workers by surname (though not in my experience - I think I get this vague idea from US films). It sounds very peculiar to me that Barristan would refer to Lyanna as ‘Stark’.

I have to say, rereading the passage, that GRRM has done a masterly job of including quite a bit of information but still leaving the facts up in the air.

Would Barristan have called Lyanna Stark? Good question. 

[Tradecraft]

On 7/14/2023 at 4:17 PM, Mourning Star said:

Absolutely wild response 

If you are being serious I am deeply sorry for you, that’s a heartbreaking worldview

In addition, Brandon has nothing monetarily to offer since he’s promised to marry Cat. Also, there is no mention of Ashara wedding plans at all, which would presumably have been made by the male head of House Dayne and not her anyway.

Marriage pacts are broken all the time in ASOIAF. 

 

Which means he can offer Winterfell. 

[Castellan]

If I had to choose I think turned to Stark means turning to Eddard for help.

Eddard has been further involved with Ashara in the events after the tourney and after the TOJ. He went to house Dayne supposedly to tell them of Arthur's death and return his sword. Then there is talk of the wetnurse being shared with Jon and the continued rumours that Jon was Ashara's. This seems to create a possibility that some of this travelling about had to do with helping Ashara. Its clear there's more to reveal about the whole business - 'she jumped into the sea' seems a convenient way for a family to explain someone's absence.

I suppose I don't think there is any reason to make a list of all Starks and then try to narrow down what was meant by 'turned to Stark'. There is really no hint about Ashara asking Lyanna for help and as I said I don't think Barristan would think of Lyanna as 'Stark'. She'd be 'the Stark girl' or 'Lyanna Stark' or "Stark's sister"

Edited July 16, 2023 by Castellan

[Hippocras]

11 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Did you miss the word "only"?

 

She "only" danced with him because his brother interceded. Which means she wasn't going to do it otherwise.

Yes, fine, but your conclusion from that was that she was not interested in him. Her opinion of him after dancing with him is what matters, not the fact that he was too shy to have any impression on her before that. Clearly, after dancing with him, she liked him very much. So that is what makes Ned relevant.

[Tradecraft]

4 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Yes, fine, but your conclusion from that was that she was not interested in him. Her opinion of him after dancing with him is what matters, not the fact that he was too shy to have any impression on her before that. Clearly, after dancing with him, she liked him very much. So that is what makes Ned relevant.

Even Catelyn, Ned's own wife, wasn't crazy about him. 

Their love making is boring for Catelyn.

Quote

So when they had finished, Ned rolled off and climbed from her bed, as he had a thousand times before. 

 

Quote

but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name

She preferred Brandon too. 

[Hippocras]

42 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

Even Catelyn, Ned's own wife, wasn't crazy about him. 

Their love making is boring for Catelyn.

She preferred Brandon too. 

....

well that is one interpretation anyway. I guess it depends how badly you want to believe Brandon had a thing with Ashara. Everything surrounding her is deliberately vague, so I don't fully discount the possibility. And yet I think there is far more to support other interpretations.

The main thing to keep in mind is that the wording was "looked to" not "looked at". The wonderful collection of examples in the OP on how that wording is used do IMO clarify that we are not talking about Ashara's crush on a Stark, but rather Ashara needing something or other from a Stark. What did she need and why? Who knows. Frankly it feels like misdirection, so that we all can doubt Jon's parentage.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Hippocras

[Sandy Clegg]

21 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Their love making is boring for Catelyn.

So when they had finished, Ned rolled off and climbed from her bed, as he had a thousand times before. 

Not if we go by quantity! 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[Sandy Clegg]

21 hours ago, Hippocras said:

The main thing to keep in mind is that the wording was "looked to" not "looked at". The wonderful collection of examples in the OP on how that wording is used do IMO clarify that we are not talking about Ashara's crush on a Stark, but rather Ashara needing something or other from a Stark.

That’s the general meaning of ‘look to’ certainly. It’s synonymous here with ‘turned to’. I don’t think it excludes romantic connotations though, especially considering Barristan’s fairly prim way of seeing all matters to do with passion. George is being deliberately vague with that wording. 

The world of marriage can be a businesslike affair in ASOIAF. So maybe that’s also something to bear in mind with the quote. Essentially, it may be that we learn more about Barristan’s view of romance from this word choice than we do about Ashara’s intentions.
 

[Sandy Clegg]

Ok, so I had a little trawl and seems George doesn't use 'look to' exclusively for 'seeking help/advice':

Quote

"Is that your notion of justice?" Ned flared. "If so, I am pleased that I am no longer your Hand."

The queen looked to her husband. "If any man had dared speak to a Targaryen as he has spoken to you—"

"Do you take me for Aerys?" Robert interrupted.

 - EDDARD IX

Quote

"Only fools will say that," Lord Mathis argued.

Renly looked to the others. "What say you all?"

"I say that Stannis is a danger to you," Lord Randyll Tarly declared. 

 - CATELYN III, ACOK

Quote

Like the queen they so despised, the mob was looking to the sky with dread, fearing that King Aegon’s dragons would arrive before the night was out, with an army close behind them.

So, just to play Devil's advocate .... Here they are simply looking in the other's general direction, not just for help or advice. So it may be an example of 'old-timey flavour' in the language George is choosing to use. 

Also, we have ..

Quote

"A slower death than elsewise."

The big ranger looked to Jon. "We have no food to feed her, nor can we spare a man to watch her."

 - JON VI, ACOK

Here, it's unlikely Qorin is showing deference, or 'looking to' Jon for help/advice. It's rather unambiguously 'turning his eyes on' Jon.

Quote

"You," he said to Davos. "Come."

"Where?" Davos looked to Ser Axell. "Tell me true, ser, do you mean to burn me?"

"You are sent for. Can you walk?"

George uses 'look to' again here, but it's in the context of 'about to ask a question'.

All in all I'd say there is little or no evidence for 'look to' in the meaning of 'gazing at' for any length of time, romantically or otherwise. It's just a (brief) shift in one's attention. But this could include a variety of motives, not just 'seeking assistance'. The fact of its old-timey stylistic usage also makes it tricky to determine. In context, it seems most likely she turned to Stark for help, as this is by far the most common usage of it in the text. But I still wonder if Barristan may simply have old-fashioned notions of romance which mean he is just being very circumspect in his language.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[Hippocras]

@Sandy Clegg yes, sure. But none of those are examples of sexual interest are they? The main mistake people make is to mix up "looked to" with "looked at", which is more often used as a relatively subtle way to indicate sexual interest. "Looked to" just isn't used that way.

Of course even if the looking part was not specifically about sexual interest, that doesn't need to mean she did not HAVE any sexual interest in the person she was looking to. It just means that getting whoever it was to return her interest was not, in that moment, her specific objective.

[Sandy Clegg]

12 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Looked to" just isn't used that way.

correct

[Sandy Clegg]

22 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Of course even if the looking part was not specifically about sexual interest, that doesn't need to mean she did not HAVE any sexual interest in the person she was looking to. It just means that getting whoever it was to return her interest was not, in that moment, her specific objective.

I re-read this thread from the start and I'm not even sure I get what the argument is here now. 'Looked to Stark' is basically an extremely ambiguous term. 'Looked to' for what ....

• assistance
• revenge
• marriage prospects (in Barristan's formal POV)
• advice on how to cook an egg
• embroidery tips

We just don't know.

Quote

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

Barristan expressing regret that he was unable to crown Ashara queen of L&B, is what I take from the passage. Because the consequence of him unhorsing Rhaegar would have meant that this would somehow prevent her 'looking to Stark'. At this same tourney (Harrenhall) she was dishonoured by someone for whom she nevertheless may have felt 'grief' according to Selmy. That's also odd. But true to life, I guess. The heart wants, etc. It's hard not to draw the conclusion that she means the same person. First came the Stark. Then followed dishonour. Or was it the other way around? That's the tricky bit.

If you want to spin it another way, try this: Barristan is so guilt-ridden in his POV thoughts that he can't bear to name himself as the man who 'dishonoured' Ashara. 

Quote

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …

For someone who only knew her at court, he certainly has some lingering vivid impressions of her. Laughing, her hair around her shoulders. It's possible that they did have a fling at that time, then he dropped her out of White Cloak guilt, but unwittingly left her with a baby. Perhaps winning the crown of L&B would have given him a chance to rectify things, to make the impossible possible, foreswear his White Cloak and marry Ashara? But of course that was all a pipe dream and he stayed at his post, silent and regretful. And so she looked to Stark, on discovering she was pregnant. For help, for a rebound quickie, for a speedy betrothal, for moon tea? We don't know. 

But we know Barristan calls her 'his' fair lady. And that when he thinks of her he thinks of grief, her unborn daughter, his silence. His failure  - to protect her? Or his failure to keep his vows. Yet he never names the man who dishonoured her. If it were just some random guy, why not name him? It's a private thought - nobody's listening. Ok, George has to keep us guessing. That's one thing we can count on (see every single Ned POV chapter). But ...

Being unable to ultimately name himself due to overwhelming  guilt makes a little thematic sense.

[Hippocras]

Not sure there is an argument! Amazing I know. Just a group of people discussing possibilities.

[the trees have eyes]

On 7/15/2023 at 10:28 PM, Tradecraft said:

Did you miss the word "only"?

She "only" danced with him because his brother interceded. Which means she wasn't going to do it otherwise.

It means Ned was too shy to ask her to dance so Brandon asked her on his behalf.  If Ned doesn't ask and Brandon doesn't intercede then they don't dance.  That's the meaning of "only" here.

You are taking that and assuming it means 1) Ashara did not want to dance with Ned and 2) she only danced with Ned because Brandon asked her to do, i.e. she did it as a favour to Brandon.  That's not what's written or implied.

On 7/15/2023 at 10:30 PM, Tradecraft said:

Marriage pacts are broken all the time in ASOIAF. 

Which means he can offer Winterfell. 

Not at all.  Marriage pacts are a serious business and breaking them without reason is not something done lightly and has major repercussions.  Even if it doesn't result in Walder Frey like revenge it show the House breaking the pact cannot be taken at their word or trusted, a major problem in Westerosi feudal society, and results in ill will from the insulted and dishonoured House.

For example and most obviously, when Brandon dies Ned marries his betrothed in his place to cement the alliance.

Marriage pacts are political alliances and to suggest Brandon (and more importantly Rickard) would abandon the marriage alliance with the Lord Paramount of The Riverlands in return for a subordinate House in Dorne is bizarre.  What is the reasoning for this shift in Rickard's or Brandon's view?

[Hippocras]

Something I wonder about Ashara is if she had in fact been betrothed. She was from a very prominent House and was of age to marry. Very often girls are betrothed long before they are of age in Westeros.

It seems odd doesn't it that we know nothing at all about who she might have been betrothed to, prior to becoming pregnant?