astarkchoice Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 5 hours ago, Willam Stark said: '-Don't know but I'm not here to read your headcanon sorry. -It doesn't change anything, Robert wouldn't be able to match someone who's way better than him in horsemanship. -"Able and energetic" are not used in the same sentence as "his skills at arms", meaning that they refer to two different things. This is confirmed by "That, and his skill at arms", "Able and energetic" doesn't refer to his skill at arms but rather his ability as a commander. To refer to a capable warrior through the word "skill", Ser Kevan would have said "he's skilled at arms" instead of "his skills at arms" which is a generic expression that doesn't tell us anything about his martial level. "Vigor" means "strength" and "vigorous" means "strong", thus Aerys II wanted someone as strong (or at least supposed to be) as Robert was back then, who's an elite warrior. "Young" and "youth" already refer to "energetic" and "energy" in this context, it wouldn't make sense to separate two terms that have the same meaning. - ok wel pretend he became great friends witth the KG but never intereacted with them...despite some of them also guarding him all.day -in a joust no but again this was more of a melee -dude this is getting stupid..theres.no way jon connington was even remotely as strong as prime robert ( Vigourous also means energetic dude) jon connington as we see when he fights a post whorehouse robert wasnt even in the same.class! Robert is young ,energetic and leads from the front ..aerys replaced an old tired hand for someone whos also a good warrior (not robert's level but good) abd is also energetic..proactive when dealing with this rebellion. Already the old hand has sat on his ass and wasted the oppertunity the loyalist vale and stormlords presented, tarly prevented ashford.being taken and acting as a blocker to the reach. So he appoints jon as more vigourous commander who can not only lead from the front but is competent and energetic...aerys was right jon is a vigourous commander ,he doesnt sit back and wait he moves on the reportedly injures robert right away!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 The quality of sparring partners doesn't actually tell us much about how good Rhaegar was with a sword, even if we assume that he was training with Arthur Dayne all the time (which is an assumption, not a given). I could practise basketball with LeBron James every day and at best I'd still be a very mediocre basketball player. And he would probably get worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 1 hour ago, Alester Florent said: The quality of sparring partners doesn't actually tell us much about how good Rhaegar was with a sword, even if we assume that he was training with Arthur Dayne all the time (which is an assumption, not a given). I could practise basketball with LeBron James every day and at best I'd still be a very mediocre basketball player. And he would probably get worse. But for a commited fighter its a must! to be the best you must train with the best. If you train every day with the very best and push yourself you cant help but improve...doesnt mean you will evet be elite yourself but its an important step to take if you want to be up there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 (edited) Rhaegar was an excellent warrior, who badly injured a man who won 3 battles in 1 day, after the match with Rhaegar, Robert should recover before riding a horse. Rhaegar was an extremely skilled jouster who won a final against Ser Barristan in the tourney of Harrenhal, unlike his ancestors he had no Valyrian steel blade. He is an underrated character Edited August 28, 2023 by KingAerys_II Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willam Stark Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 On 8/27/2023 at 10:47 PM, astarkchoice said: - ok wel pretend he became great friends witth the KG but never intereacted with them...despite some of them also guarding him all.day Never said that, only that I'm not here to read your headcanon. On 8/27/2023 at 10:47 PM, astarkchoice said: -in a joust no but again this was more of a melee Still doesn't change anything. On 8/27/2023 at 10:47 PM, astarkchoice said: dude this is getting stupid..theres.no way jon connington was even remotely as strong as prime robert Never said that either, only that Aerys was looking for someone as strong and energetic as Robert was (or at least supposed to be). Read the entire message before replying. On 8/27/2023 at 10:47 PM, astarkchoice said: Vigourous also means energetic dude The first sense of vigorous is strong, young already means "energetic" in this context. On 8/27/2023 at 10:47 PM, astarkchoice said: jon connington as we see when he fights a post whorehouse robert wasnt even in the same.class! I know, that's what makes Robert a beast. He has defeated one of the best swordmen by using a sword, even though he's not a swordman himself. On 8/27/2023 at 10:47 PM, astarkchoice said: Robert is young ,energetic and leads from the front ..aerys replaced an old tired hand for someone whos also a good warrior (not robert's level but good) abd is also energetic..proactive when dealing with this rebellion. We're making progress here you've stopped reducing JonCon to a mere capable warrior, which is quote from the wiki, not the actual text by the way. 10 hours ago, astarkchoice said: But for a commited fighter its a must! to be the best you must train with the best. If you train every day with the very best and push yourself you cant help but improve...doesnt mean you will evet be elite yourself but its an important step to take if you want to be up there! That doesn't makes him roughly equal to Robert, since he didn't manage to inflict a life threatening wound to the beast who killed him while being wounded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 11 hours ago, astarkchoice said: But for a commited fighter its a must! to be the best you must train with the best. If you train every day with the very best and push yourself you cant help but improve...doesnt mean you will evet be elite yourself but its an important step to take if you want to be up there! Sure, but it's reasoning backwards. Rhaegar may (probably did) have had the opportunity to train with some of the best swordsmen in Westeros. That doesn't necessarily mean that he himself was any good. The quality of the training facilities someone has access to doesn't always correlate to actual quality of output. Just like someone can go to a great school and university and still come out being really quite thick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted August 29, 2023 Share Posted August 29, 2023 The books tell he was a capable warrior : "from all reports grew into a skilled and capable fighter." astarkchoice 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted August 31, 2023 Share Posted August 31, 2023 On 8/28/2023 at 11:37 PM, Alester Florent said: Sure, but it's reasoning backwards. Rhaegar may (probably did) have had the opportunity to train with some of the best swordsmen in Westeros. That doesn't necessarily mean that he himself was any good. The quality of the training facilities someone has access to doesn't always correlate to actual quality of output. Just like someone can go to a great school and university and still come out being really quite thick. True but we slare told he did become an excellent warrior Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted August 31, 2023 Share Posted August 31, 2023 On 8/28/2023 at 10:29 PM, Willam Stark said: -Never said that, only that I'm not here to read your headcanon. Still doesn't change anything. -Never said that either, only that Aerys was looking for someone as strong and energetic as Robert was (or at least supposed to be). Read the entire message before replying.The first sense of vigorous is strong, young already means "energetic" in this context. -I know, that's what makes Robert a beast. He has defeated one of the best swordmen by using a sword, even though he's not a swordman himself. -We're making progress here you've stopped reducing JonCon to a mere capable warrior, which is quote from the wiki, not the actual text by the way. -That doesn't makes him roughly equal to Robert, since he didn't manage to inflict a life threatening wound to the beast who killed him while being wounded. -fair enough dude -no young means young and vigouous means energetic and skilled at arms is again exactly.as.it sounds the previous hand had been elderly and slow to react and not exactly able to lead from the front allowing the rebellion to gaim steam hence jon conningtons appointment -jon isnt established as one of the best swordsman' at all , anywhere -right hes good..not elite or one of the best -sorts derails your own argument here. Jon connington couldnt injure him when hed already fought + killed 6 other guys and been whoring all day!!! By your def rhaegar is clearly better than jon connington. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted August 31, 2023 Share Posted August 31, 2023 As a jouster he lost a final against Ser Arthur Dayne and won the tourney of Harrenhal, important tourneys against Ser Barristan, Ser Arthur Dayne, Lewyn Martell and the other members of the Kingsguard. A scarce knight doesn't win against such great warriors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willam Stark Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 23 hours ago, astarkchoice said: -no young means young and vigouous means energetic and skilled at arms is again exactly.as.it sounds Well if you want to go with the first sense, then you have to accept that vigorous means strong, not energetic. Young means young, but the text doesn't literally say that he's skilled at arms. 23 hours ago, astarkchoice said: -jon isnt established as one of the best swordsman' at all , anywhere It's suggested by the fact that Aerys was looking for someone as young and vigorous (so strong in the first sense) as Robert and he picked JonCon, who's a swordman. Since Robert is one of the Rebellion's best warriors, then JonCon is one of them too, not the greatest of course but part of it and Aerys thought it would be enough to handle his cousin. 23 hours ago, astarkchoice said: -sorts derails your own argument here. Jon connington couldnt injure him when hed already fought + killed 6 other guys and been whoring all day!!! By your def rhaegar is clearly better than jon connington. I never said that JonCon is the best swordman, Arthur Dayne holds this title, but one of the best. So he's way above average, but there are better swordmen than him and I think Rhaegar is part of it. That doesn't mean he's roughly equal to Robert though, no contradiction here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 45 minutes ago, Willam Stark said: -Well if you want to go with the first sense, then you have to accept that vigorous means strong, not energetic. Young means young, but the text doesn't literally say that he's skilled at arms. -It's suggested by the fact that Aerys was looking for someone as young and vigorous (so strong in the first sense) as Robert and he picked JonCon, who's a swordman. Since Robert is one of the Rebellion's best warriors, then JonCon is one of them too, not the greatest of course but part of it and Aerys thought it would be enough to handle his cousin. -I never said that JonCon is the best swordman, Arthur Dayne holds this title, but one of the best. So he's way above average, but there are better swordmen than him and I think Rhaegar is part of it. That doesn't mean he's roughly equal to Robert though, no contradiction here. -no it also means energetic which is what arrys wanted and jon demonstrated with the battle ofthe bells!! the prev hand had let the rebellion build with his inactivity ...he left loyalists in the vale and stormlands unsuported, jon wasnt like that he jumped on roberts 1st loss to finish things -right so we know he not as strong as robert ...not even close so its energetic then! ,nor is he in the same ball park overall as a warrior! Hes clearly a good fighter and young thus can lead from.the front and command with a more energetic style, more proactive than his predecessor. Hes not picked because he can equal robert in strength or as an elite warrior...in terms of appearance and morale for the loyalists he just needs to be good enough to get stuck in at the front like robert does without getting himself killed. -yeah id say jon cons a skilled swordsman but far from one of the elite of his generation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willam Stark Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: no it also means energetic The first sense is strong, as young means young. You brought this on yourself. 23 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: -right so we know he not as strong as robert ...not even close so its energetic then! ,nor is he in the same ball park overall as a warrior! No, it just means that Aerys underestimated Robert. 23 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: Hes clearly a good fighter and young thus can lead from.the front and command with a more energetic style, more proactive than his predecessor. Hes not picked because he can equal robert in strength or as an elite warrior... Aerys picked him for both, or at least expected him to be. Edited September 1, 2023 by Willam Stark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 13 minutes ago, Willam Stark said: The first sense is strong, as young means young. You brought this on yourself. No, it just means that Aerys underestimated Robert. Aerys picked him for both, or at least expected him to be. This is going round in circles wel.agree to disagree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted September 2, 2023 Share Posted September 2, 2023 No. Rhaegar was a good tourney knight and that's all. Robert was a force of nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted September 2, 2023 Share Posted September 2, 2023 6 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: No. Rhaegar was a good tourney knight and that's all. Robert was a force of nature. The book says he was a skilled warrior, not me, the only battle that injured Robert was against Rhaegar, who was an excellent jouster too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted September 2, 2023 Share Posted September 2, 2023 Rhaegar was clearly worthy to wield Dark Sister, the most skilled Targaryen warrior wields it, I don't think Daemon Targaryen or Baelon were better than him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted September 2, 2023 Share Posted September 2, 2023 @KingAerys_II your new profile picture is hilarious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted September 2, 2023 Share Posted September 2, 2023 40 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: The book says he was a skilled warrior, not me, the only battle that injured Robert was against Rhaegar, who was an excellent jouster too When was Rhaegar tested as a fighter in a battle? Because as I recall he only participated in one battle and he died. Robert was injured before his battle with Rhaegar and he cleaned off his way to reach him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odej Posted September 2, 2023 Share Posted September 2, 2023 (edited) I agree that Rhaegar was a skilled warrior. You must have some excellence to be able to hold a fight for a while and manage to wound one of the most powerful warriors in the kingdom, physically much stronger than you, and who was fighting with the weapon with which he was most destructive. Besides, it doesn't have much to do with the subject of the thread, but I always found it absurd that Aegon V allowed Brynder Rivers to take Darksister to the Wall. It was the Targaryen's valyrian steel sword that only the family's most renowned warriors wielded and they had already lost Blackfyre to the Rebellion, so Darksister was the only one left. Edited September 2, 2023 by Odej Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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