KingAerys_II Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 As a jouster and horse rider Rhaegar was better than Robert, Robert never won a tourney but he was very good in melee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 3 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said: I don't think so, but you're free to believe otherwise. It's more like rolling a die and every outcome except for 1 leads to Robert's victory. But I don't think Rhaegar winning would be a just outcome (although asoiaf is often unjust). Robert was only fighting, because his head was called for due to the actions of Aerys and Rhaegar. I don't think Rhaegar's a monster or anything, but barring mind control, it seems hard to justify his actions leading up to and including on the Trident. Just no but def tragic ...it could have been all so avoidable esp as rhaegar saw the doom thats now comming to westeros Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 3 hours ago, Willam Stark said: -Headcanon. -I didn't say otherwise. -The thing is that Rhaegar is an elite jouster, he would have unhorsed Robert easily if the latter was just a decent rider. Robert wouldn't have been able to clash and kill this kind of opponent if he wasn't as good as him in horsemanship. -Nope, @SirBronzeFalcon has provided the correct quote. -Well they weren't. PS: Could you make an effort with your spelling? Sometimes it's hard to understand you. -where else would he stay most of the time? He has no castle Plus the kg are like his pals it would ve odd that this friendship occured with minimal personal interaction -ok -if they had lances yes but ridong swinging sword and hammer at each other is more like a melee tha a joust -yeah his quotes dont make him out to be elite either , says hes a capable warrior and has skill at arms. Its more his youth and vigor as a commander aerys wanted him for.....someome to match roberts energy not physicaly fight him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said: In the Battle of the Bells, he also killed the darling of the Vale and Jon Arryn's heir, Denys Arryn. He defeated Hoster Tully in the same battle. Jon Connington is clearly meant to be an elite warrior. Dunno about elite but def as the wiki says a capable warrior which this would back up. We arent told hoster was a great fighter says he was a broad man in youth and grew portly as he got old and his hair grew grey (around battle of bells time) Denys arryn is ssid to have been an excellent jouster and was the darling of the vale (probablynas he was the heir andnisndecribed as handsome, gallant and brimming with courtesy' Perhaps its just semantics though ,Hes clearly good but at what limit do we draw under elite ? This is an era with Dayne , the white bull, young jamie, barristan, robert, 17-18yr old ser gregor , the viper etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 (edited) g 21 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: Dunno about elite but def as the wiki says a capable warrior which this would back up. We arent told hoster was a great fighter says he was a broad man in youth and grew portly as he got old and his hair grew grey (around battle of bells time) Denys arryn is ssid to have been an excellent jouster and was the darling of the vale (probablynas he was the heir andnisndecribed as handsome, gallant and brimming with courtesy' Perhaps its just semantics though ,Hes clearly good but at what limit do we draw under elite ? This is an era with Dayne , the white bull, young jamie, barristan, robert, 17-18yr old ser gregor , the viper etc etc Every Lord is at least good with few exceptions. They were trained from this from an early age. Beating other Lords personally is just a way for George to mark someone out as exceptional like when Lord Karstark slew Stafford Lannister and when Randyll Tarly slew Lord Cafferen. Quote "How does a farm boy get so good with a sword? Jaime wondered, as he stepped back from a slashing attack so quick that Rand seemed to have three blades. In Westeros, a boy of noble birth began training almost as soon as he could walk. He served years as a page and then a squire, training every day for long hours, first with wooden swords and then with blunted tourney steel, practicing until his hands were hard with callous and every move and cut and stance became second nature to him, and fighting came as easily as breathing. Few farm boys could ever hope to equal that, no matter how big or strong or fast they might be. It was not something a man could master between plowing fields and milking cows." I don't think he's as good as the guys you just mentioned, but I think he's probably in the tier just below them. That's where I put Rhaegar, Jonothor Darry, Lewyn Martell and Oswell Whent. Edited August 25, 2023 by Lee-Sensei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBronzeFalcon Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 2 hours ago, astarkchoice said: Dunno about elite but def as the wiki says a capable warrior which this would back up. We arent told hoster was a great fighter says he was a broad man in youth and grew portly as he got old and his hair grew grey (around battle of bells time) Denys arryn is ssid to have been an excellent jouster and was the darling of the vale (probablynas he was the heir andnisndecribed as handsome, gallant and brimming with courtesy' Perhaps its just semantics though ,Hes clearly good but at what limit do we draw under elite ? This is an era with Dayne , the white bull, young jamie, barristan, robert, 17-18yr old ser gregor , the viper etc etc The books establish that he was already a famous warrior and a warrior worthy of songs, not merely capable; but because of your obvious contempt or fanaticism for some characters, you choose to deny it. You use the White Bull as an example of one of the best warriors, but I must remind you that the text makes it clear that he was already old (he must have been in his 40s or 50s, if not older). You also use Barristan, but decide to forget that he was in his forties; the author is not an idiot and understands that an athlete does not have the same performance in his forties as in his twenties and thirties (if you don't believe me, you can check Barristan's chapters). You use young Jaime as an example of one of the best, a 15-year-old squire whose performance against the Kingswood Brotherhood was regrettable. He failed against an outlaw by the name of Big Belly Ben, a morbidly obese man (in other words: no stamina, no agility, no speed), and he failed against the Smiling Knight, an outlaw who had previously been mastered by Barristan in his 40s. And you use as an example the one who has achieved the least of all the elite warriors. What are Arthur's victories? He got a questionable victory. And the truth is that it can collapse with the very text of the books. All he has is the author's configuration (and that's something I'm not going to deny in a character, regardless of whether I like the character or not)... just like every character in the text. NOTE: And I have nothing against Barristan. Ser Barristan the Bold is the Greatest of All Times!; he has proved this throughout his life, and continues and will continue to prove this in the books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 3 hours ago, SirBronzeFalcon said: The books establish that he was already a famous warrior and a warrior worthy of songs, not merely capable; but because of your obvious contempt or fanaticism for some characters, you choose to deny it. You use the White Bull as an example of one of the best warriors, but I must remind you that the text makes it clear that he was already old (he must have been in his 40s or 50s, if not older). You also use Barristan, but decide to forget that he was in his forties; the author is not an idiot and understands that an athlete does not have the same performance in his forties as in his twenties and thirties (if you don't believe me, you can check Barristan's chapters). You use young Jaime as an example of one of the best, a 15-year-old squire whose performance against the Kingswood Brotherhood was regrettable. He failed against an outlaw by the name of Big Belly Ben, a morbidly obese man (in other words: no stamina, no agility, no speed), and he failed against the Smiling Knight, an outlaw who had previously been mastered by Barristan in his 40s. And you use as an example the one who has achieved the least of all the elite warriors. What are Arthur's victories? He got a questionable victory. And the truth is that it can collapse with the very text of the books. All he has is the author's configuration (and that's something I'm not going to deny in a character, regardless of whether I like the character or not)... just like every character in the text. NOTE: And I have nothing against Barristan. Ser Barristan the Bold is the Greatest of All Times!; he has proved this throughout his life, and continues and will continue to prove this in the books. No i said capable not elite, the books make it clear hes got notable skill at arms but more known of a vigourous skilled commander than fighter. He did kill 2 named characters at the battle of the bells but none of them.known as elite warriors If we are talking elite warriors vs jons level then remember robert gets out of a brothel from a days whoring , kills 6 men ins ucession and then jon remebers almost being killed by him at the steps of the towns sept and fleeing!!! THATS the gap between jon and someone elite. All the guys i named are literaly a whos who of the elite warriors of westeros man! The white bull about 40 at the time of the rebellion ,is literaly one of the legendary fighters whos songs about them and old nans stories inspire bran to want to be a kg! Barristan? Wtf ? Literaly one of the top 3 fighters of all time in westeros , kills 'a dozen friends of ned and robert' at the trident!!! Is literaly still one of westeros best fighters at his old age by the books start!!!! Jamie we are literaly told is a swordfighting prodigy ! The smiling knight is remembered as that generations version of the hound and he didnt 'fail agaisnt big belly ben' he stopped him killing the knight he squired for! By the time of the rebellion he is unquestionably one of the best fighters in westeros ! Arthur dayne? Wtf? Like literaly the man grmm has TOLD us is the greatest knight in all westeros history bar none? The man jamie says could kill loras,balon swann and kettleback etc with one hand while pissing ,who.ned (whos seen robert fight) describes as the best ever , noted tourney knihght too etc etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said: Every Lord is at least good with few exceptions. They were trained from this from an early age. Beating other Lords personally is just a way for George to mark someone out as exceptional like when Lord Karstark slew Stafford Lannister and when Randyll Tarly slew Lord Cafferen. I don't think he's as good as the guys you just mentioned, but I think he's probably in the tier just below them. That's where I put Rhaegar, Jonothor Darry, Lewyn Martell and Oswell Whent. True but as they say theres levels to this shit If we are talking on connington hes described as having skill at arms and a capable warrior he kills 2 named.lords but neither are known as famous warriors themselves Robert by contrast in the same battle emerges from his latest of multiple hideouts where he was whoring (serious whoring that legend sleeps with every whore in that place and bella repeatedly! ) kills 6 men!!!! including 'famous knight 'myles mooton and THEN goes on to almost kill jon himself making him flee the stoney sept and the battle!!! THAT id say is the difference between very good and the elite! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 1 hour ago, astarkchoice said: True but as they say theres levels to this shit If we are talking on connington hes described as having skill at arms and a capable warrior he kills 2 named.lords but neither are known as famous warriors themselves Robert by contrast in the same battle emerges from his latest of multiple hideouts where he was whoring (serious whoring that legend sleeps with every whore in that place and bella repeatedly! ) kills 6 men!!!! including 'famous knight 'myles mooton and THEN goes on to almost kill jon himself making him flee the stoney sept and the battle!!! THAT id say is the difference between very good and the elite! Denys Arryn was the Darling of the Vale and a renowned jouster. He's clearly meant to be better than the average lord or knght. I agree that Robert's a tier above him. All I'm saying s that Jon Connington is an exceptional warrior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrosh Lannister Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 On 7/25/2023 at 3:15 AM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said: I believe that he could have had one if Bloodraven had wanted him to, so either Bloodraven felt it wouldn't have made a difference and didn't send it down to protect it from falling into Robert's hands, or he knew it would make a difference and didn't send it down because Robert's Rebellion was something that he didn't want to prevent (and perhaps he had already decided that Blackfyre would go to Rhaegar's son). I kind of think it would have made a difference, especially in his showdown with Robert, but I wonder if we won't hear from BR himself about that one at some point. How would blood raven have sent him a vsteel weapon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 1 hour ago, Tyrosh Lannister said: How would blood raven have sent him a vsteel weapon? He has magic, just trust him, he could do it if he wanted to. Tyrosh Lannister 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 Rhaegar was more skilled on a horse than Robert, he was quicker than him, because he wounded Robert, Robert won with a single blow of the hammer on the chest, the weapon was stronger, Rhaegar wielding Blackfyre or Dark Sister, of course, would have more chances, Daemon Blackfyre was exceptional thanks to the Valyrian blade, Osgrey told that with a common lance he was a average knight, but wielding blackfyre he considered him better than Aemon and Ulrick Dayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 9 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said: Denys Arryn was the Darling of the Vale and a renowned jouster. He's clearly meant to be better than the average lord or knght. I agree that Robert's a tier above him. All I'm saying s that Jon Connington is an exceptional warrior. Id say he was more the darling of the vale as he was the heir and described as handsome, gallant and courteous ! Now hes.clearly good if a renowed jouster true but yeah robert is a level above both The question is where rhaegar lies as he doensnt have many 'feats' id say the fact the wiki said the fight was even/competive shows he was up there .....its just when 2 elites fight one has to lose and it was just roberts day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 (edited) Rhaegar is clearly underrated, Robert faced his the toughest opponent he ever faced, there are no other accounts of Robert badly injured after a battle. Robert and Rhaegar were as skilled as members of Kingsguard Edited August 26, 2023 by KingAerys_II Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBronzeFalcon Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 13 hours ago, astarkchoice said: No i said capable not elite, the books make it clear hes got notable skill at arms but more known of a vigourous skilled commander than fighter. He did kill 2 named characters at the battle of the bells but none of them.known as elite warriors If we are talking elite warriors vs jons level then remember robert gets out of a brothel from a days whoring , kills 6 men ins ucession and then jon remebers almost being killed by him at the steps of the towns sept and fleeing!!! THATS the gap between jon and someone elite. All the guys i named are literaly a whos who of the elite warriors of westeros man! The white bull about 40 at the time of the rebellion ,is literaly one of the legendary fighters whos songs about them and old nans stories inspire bran to want to be a kg! Barristan? Wtf ? Literaly one of the top 3 fighters of all time in westeros , kills 'a dozen friends of ned and robert' at the trident!!! Is literaly still one of westeros best fighters at his old age by the books start!!!! Jamie we are literaly told is a swordfighting prodigy ! The smiling knight is remembered as that generations version of the hound and he didnt 'fail agaisnt big belly ben' he stopped him killing the knight he squired for! By the time of the rebellion he is unquestionably one of the best fighters in westeros ! Arthur dayne? Wtf? Like literaly the man grmm has TOLD us is the greatest knight in all westeros history bar none? The man jamie says could kill loras,balon swann and kettleback etc with one hand while pissing ,who.ned (whos seen robert fight) describes as the best ever , noted tourney knihght too etc etc etc Quote The white bull about 40 at the time of the rebellion ,is literaly one of the legendary fighters whos songs about them and old nans stories inspire bran to want to be a kg! I have not denied that the White Bull was an elite warrior (his name appears twice in line with the Dragonknight) at his prime (at his youth). All I said was that he was old. Quote Barristan? Wtf ? Literaly one of the top 3 fighters of all time in westeros , kills 'a dozen friends of ned and robert' at the trident!!! Is literaly still one of westeros best fighters at his old age by the books start!!!! Nor have I denied that Ser Barristan the G.O.A.T. was a legendary warrior in his prime (for God's sake, among all, his name appears most often in line with the Dragonknight). All I have said is that he was in his 40s, and I didn't deny his performance at Trident. Quote he didnt 'fail agaisnt big belly ben' he stopped him killing the knight he squired for! By the time of the rebellion he is unquestionably one of the best fighters in westeros ! A morbidly obese man by the name of Big Belly Ben escaped from Jaime. Jaime failed. And of course that by the time of the Rebellion he was not unquestionably one of the best. Do you want Jaime's demonstrable prime point? Where Jaime was truly an elite warrior? Where Jaime forged himself in the melee (whether he won or not, as we unfortunately don't know)? His demonstrable prime point is from 290 to 299. Quote Arthur dayne? Wtf? Like literaly the man grmm has TOLD us is the greatest knight in all westeros history bar none? The man jamie says could kill loras,balon swann and kettleback etc with one hand while pissing ,who.ned (whos seen robert fight) describes as the best ever , noted tourney knihght too etc etc etc Quote Arthur dayne? Wtf? Like literaly the man grmm has TOLD us is the greatest knight in all westeros history bar none? The most misrepresented quote by the fandom. A complete fallacy. I won't even bother to refute it. Quote The man jamie says could kill loras,balon swann and kettleback etc with one hand while pissing , You use hyperbole as an argument. Hyperbole immediately refuted by Loras ("Dead men, every one." ASOS - Jaime VIII). Quote who.ned (whos seen robert fight) describes as the best ever , Eddard describes Robert as pearless and describes Arthur as the finest of the seven of the Kingsguard, not of all the knights he had ever seen. You don't believe me? Let's check the text: NOTE: And I'm not denying that Arthur is elite, I'm just making my point. Sorry if I'm being too direct, it is not my intention. Quote Something his father had told him once when he was little came back to him suddenly. He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. "No longer," he answered, "but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world." "Was there one who was best of all?" "The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant. ACOK - Bran III This is what the author wrote. Take it or leave it, but stop misrepresenting information. And I have not denied that Arthur is an elite warrior (his name appears once in line with the Dragonknight). Quote All the guys i named are literaly a whos who of the elite warriors of westeros man! These were my words: Quote All he has is the author's configuration (and that's something I'm not going to deny in a character, regardless of whether I like the character or not)... just like every character in the text. And I didn't say Jon Connington was an elite warrior. He is simply not set up to be an elite warrior. All I said is that Jon Connington was a man who was already famous for his prowess with arms and who had to leave the Golden Company, after only a year's stay, because his prowess was worthy of songs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 5 hours ago, KingAerys_II said: Daemon Blackfyre was exceptional thanks to the Valyrian blade, Osgrey told that with a common lance he was a average knight, but wielding blackfyre he considered him better than Aemon and Ulrick Dayne This is a bit apples and oranges. Not much of a jouster, but a great swordsman. It doesn't tell us that Blackfyre made an overwhelming difference to his swordsmanship, because we're talking about different weapons and skills. Kal-L 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 4 minutes ago, Alester Florent said: This is a bit apples and oranges. Not much of a jouster, but a great swordsman. It doesn't tell us that Blackfyre made an overwhelming difference to his swordsmanship, because we're talking about different weapons and skills. Rhaegar and Daemon had similar skills, both used swords, both were great jousters and won tourneys, Daemon had a Valyrian steel blade, that's the difference, Rhaegar is underrated, he is better than Maekar and Baelor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willam Stark Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 (edited) On 8/25/2023 at 9:23 PM, astarkchoice said: -where else would he stay most of the time? He has no castle 'Don't know but I'm not here to read your headcanon sorry. On 8/25/2023 at 9:23 PM, astarkchoice said: -if they had lances yes but ridong swinging sword and hammer at each other is more like a melee tha a joust It doesn't change anything, Robert wouldn't be able to match someone who's way better than him in horsemanship. On 8/25/2023 at 9:23 PM, astarkchoice said: -yeah his quotes dont make him out to be elite either , says hes a capable warrior and has skill at arms. Its more his youth and vigor as a commander aerys wanted him for.....someome to match roberts energy not physicaly fight him. "Able and energetic" are not used in the same sentence as "his skills at arms", meaning that they refer to two different things. This is confirmed by "That, and his skill at arms", "Able and energetic" doesn't refer to his skill at arms but rather his ability as a commander. To refer to a capable warrior through the word "skill", Ser Kevan would have said "he's skilled at arms" instead of "his skills at arms" which is a generic expression that doesn't tell us anything about his martial level. "Vigor" means "strength" and "vigorous" means "strong", thus Aerys II wanted someone as strong (or at least supposed to be) as Robert was back then, who's an elite warrior. "Young" and "youth" already refer to "energetic" and "energy" in this context, it wouldn't make sense to separate two terms that have the same meaning. Edited August 27, 2023 by Willam Stark Lee-Sensei 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 On 8/25/2023 at 1:23 PM, astarkchoice said: -where else would he stay most of the time? He has no castle Plus the kg are like his pals it would ve odd that this friendship occured with minimal personal interaction -ok -if they had lances yes but ridong swinging sword and hammer at each other is more like a melee tha a joust -yeah his quotes dont make him out to be elite either , says hes a capable warrior and has skill at arms. Its more his youth and vigor as a commander aerys wanted him for.....someome to match roberts energy not physicaly fight him. Rhaegar was the Prince of Dragonstone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 6 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said: Rhaegar was the Prince of Dragonstone. He was true but hed have KG around him to spar with still, probably dayne who was his best friend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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