If Rhaegar had Blackfyre or Dark Sister

[astarkchoice]

30 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

Nope we don't know that.

Rhaegar didn't use a warlance when he fought Robert but a one-handed sword, he didn't have any advantage against him. While Robert had the physical strength, stamina and experience.

? We are literaly told once he decided to be a warrior he worked hard at it, single minded barristan said. As for training smart how could you even assemble a better collection of training partners in the red keeps sparring courtyards than his KG? 

Going into war both would have started with a lance as they are knights. Ok we know he had strength  adva on him , barely one years battle exp  for all  thats worth and stamina? Theres nothing to show that either man had more.stamina that the other.

[Alester Florent]

4 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

? We are literaly told once he decided to be a warrior he worked hard at it, single minded barristan said. As for training smart how could you even assemble a better collection of training partners in the red keeps sparring courtyards than his KG? 

Going into war both would have started with a lance as they are knights. Ok we know he had strength  adva on him , barely one years battle exp  for all  thats worth and stamina? Theres nothing to show that either man had more.stamina that the other.

One or both of them could have lost their lance by the time they encountered one another. It wasn't at the outset of the battle. 

My bet would be that Rhaegar did have his lance and it was with that that he wounded Robert. That's his most likely weapon to do so, I think, and if Robert were wounded at the outset of the duel, it would explain why it lasted a little while (if not necessarily that long) as Robert wouldn't be able to maximise his advantage. 

Robert doesn't just have battle experience (although he has a lot more than Rhaegar: six battles is not to be sniffed at for a medieval knight). He's had a lot more training over a much longer period, and he's probably fought in several more melees (with success) which is as close to a battlefield situation as you can get. By the standards of the day, Robert qualifies as a veteran warrior. If you were so minded, on the other hand, you could classify Rhaegar as a "knight of summer": good in the lists, green on the battlefield. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Alester Florent

[astarkchoice]

18 minutes ago, SirBronzeFalcon said:

 

 

 

Rhaegar has never been described as weak, nor have I implied that. And I agree; neither Rhaegar is Oberyn, nor Robert is Gregor. All Robert shares with Gregor is that the pillar of his athleticism is strength (just as Jaime's one is speed). But isn't that the pillar of Arthur's athleticism?

The difference is that the author is not writing a strongman contest, he is writing about warriors. Warriors whose athleticism is strength. Extrapolating from real life, it would be like confronting the legendary Big George Foreman against the best of the strongmen (the brutalisation would be of Biblical proportions). The author writes about the first, not the second.

As I said before, is Arthur not among these men? * It is not a question to answer, it is a question to make my point and to reflect.

 

Talent is not the result of training, skill is the result of training; in other words, skill is the development and mastering of your talent (regardless of the grade of talent of the person). Talent is the potential of a person.

Rhaegar does not qualify as a prodigy, Robert does. Prior to the tourney at Harrenhal, the author has already established that Robert was making a name for himself in tournaments in his years as a knight (the more knowledgeable of the books should help me out here.... If I'm not mistaken, Robert was knighted between the ages of 16 and 17, wasn't he?) and already established him as "a strong warrior" (all of this can be seen in the author's SSM and interviews); and in the great tourney at Harrenhal, tournament that can be defended as the greatest tournament of all the books, Robert (19 years old) had a magnificent performance in the melee.

Robert does qualify as a prodigy, Rhaegar does not. And with all this I'm not saying that Rhaegar was not talented (if you watch my battle reconstruction, you will see that I've said it). All I'm saying is that Robert does fulfil the requirements of a prodigy, as his career as a teenager confirms to us (16 or 17 until the age of 19).

Rhaegar excelled? Perfect.

Robert excelled because he was naturaly huge and had passion for it? No. Robert excelled because he developed his immense talent.

As far as i can see robert won one melee at harrenhall at 19, raeghar was about 22 and won the tourney there and had been runner up in about 2 other known major ones too.

As for.making a name for themselves prior to knighthood you may be reffering to the exact words the hound uses to described his enormous brother before he burned his face...who prior to knighthood was already breaking men!

Havent seen your battle reconstruction to be fair , always keen to see anything asoiaf related

 

Some side note/ideas do arise when we picture these 2 fighting 

bar the odd vist from bronze royce it seems roberts main sparring partner as a  teen would be ned and maybe other arryns (maybe lyn corbray) , ned who previously had faced his reportedly talented much  bigger brother brandon before that....to survive  those years vs 2 much bigger noted warriors then ned must be a lot better than he gives himself credit for

[astarkchoice]

23 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

One or both of them could have lost their lance by the time they encountered one another. It wasn't at the outset of the battle. 

My bet would be that Rhaegar did have his lance and it was with that that he wounded Robert. That's his most likely weapon to do so, I think, and if Robert were wounded at the outset of the duel, it would explain why it lasted a little while (if not necessarily that long) as Robert wouldn't be able to maximise his advantage. 

Robert doesn't just have battle experience (although he has a lot more than Rhaegar: six battles is not to be sniffed at for a medieval knight). He's had a lot more training over a much longer period, and he's probably fought in several more melees (with success) which is as close to a battlefield situation as you can get. By the standards of the day, Robert qualifies as a veteran warrior. If you were so minded, on the other hand, you could classify Rhaegar as a "knight of summer": good in the lists, green on the battlefield. 

Fair enough

Hmm a wound from a warlance woudnt be easily shrugged off esp with 2 destriders galloping at a clash, hell poor berics 1st death is warlance through the heart.! Modern tourneys show even tourney lance strikes will leave you hanging from the side of your horse! No on reflection  the gap in jousting skill appears to be way to large with robert indifferent and rhaegar among the very elite when he chose to compete and the potential damage a warlance can cause too great...no it seems they engaged with secondary weapons from the get go..sword vs hammer. A medicore jouster vs an elite one  with intent to kill will just get a lance through the neck, face or heart as poor ser hugh vs the mountain did....thus it probably started sword vs hammer!

He does have battle experience over rahegar yes as for training  no its the other way round. Raehar is a little older (2-3years) and while initaly unenthusiastic about martial training he did partake as every lord did so technicaly trained longer.....its just a book/vision made him.begin.to be single.mindedly focus on being a great warrior   which by all accounts he became!  A sharp mind,.single.minded focus.(barristan) , an apparent  ability to excel at anything at all he chose to focus on   and the greatest sparring partners westeros could produce waitng daily in the red keep probably helped 

[KingAerys_II]

Rhaegar was a singer, not a warrior, he liked his harp more than his lance, however he hit Robert, who was badly injured after the battle, Robert killed him with a single blow. 

Better than Rhaegar were : Visenya who killed every dornish assassin sent to kill her and her husband, Maegor, who killed the Giant of the Trident and won a trial of 7, Daemon Blackfyre defeated a Kingsguard wielding a Valyrian steel blade, Meleys the Monstrous had the strength to kill a horse with a single punch and removed his cousin head with bare hands, Aegon the Conqueror and Jaehaerys I.

Robert is the best Baratheon warrior, I am not sure Orys was better than him, instead Baelor and Maekar were good warriors, not so exceptional to kill a Kingsguard or Robert Baratheon 

[Willam Stark]

59 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

As for training smart how could you even assemble a better collection of training partners in the red keeps sparring courtyards than his KG? 

Headcanon.

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

barely one years battle exp  for all  thats worth

Better than nothing on Rhaegar's side.

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Going into war both would have started with a lance as they are knights.

I said "when he fought Robert", not when he went to war.

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Theres nothing to show that either man had more.stamina that the other.

Robert fought in the front line until he reached Rhaegar, then he killed him in a single blow after being wounded.

There are no more questions to ask, Robert had more stamina than Rhaegar, he couldn't have killed Rhaegar otherwise as he was wounded while Rhaegar was clean...until the warhammer crushed his chest.

Rhaegar is too overrated, his only known feat in a real combat is...loosing to Robert in a single blow.

[Kal-L]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

If Rhaegar didn't get into serious training until his late teens or early twenties, then no matter how hard he trains or how much natural talent he has, he's pretty much automatically debarred from the elite tier of melee combat versus guys of similar age like Jaime, Robert, probably Brandon - let alone Barristan and Arthur -  who have years' worth of experience on him.

We know he didn't started training as early as the mentioned men, however it's important to note that he was still knighted in 276 (at the age of 17). I suppose that if young men started training around 6, he probably did around 12.

I don't know about Rhaegar's so-called natural talent, that the domain of fanfiction which I won't venture into personally. What we know however is that the most naturally gifted swordsman Ser Barristan met was Jaime Lannister. In fact if not asked directly by his family, no one think or spoke of Rhaegar for his skills at arms.

I personally don't see any reasons to consider him more skilled with a sword than a notorious warrior such as Jon Connington for example, no reason at all.

[SirBronzeFalcon]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

As far as i can see robert won one melee at harrenhall at 19, raeghar was about 22 and won the tourney there and had been runner up in about 2 other known major ones too.

As for.making a name for themselves prior to knighthood you may be reffering to the exact words the hound uses to described his enormous brother before he burned his face...who prior to knighthood was already breaking men!

Havent seen your battle reconstruction to be fair , always keen to see anything asoiaf related

 

Some side note/ideas do arise when we picture these 2 fighting 

bar the odd vist from bronze royce it seems roberts main sparring partner as a  teen would be ned and maybe other arryns (maybe lyn corbray) , ned who previously had faced his reportedly talented much  bigger brother brandon before that....to survive  those years vs 2 much bigger noted warriors then ned must be a lot better than he gives himself credit for

 

Quote

As for making a name for themselves prior to knighthood you may be reffering to the exact words the hound uses to described his enormous brother before he burned his face...who prior to knighthood was already breaking men!

I have made it clear that the author established this through SSM and interviews.

And anyway, the author establishes in the books that it is not necessary to be a melee winner to make a name for yourself or be a famous warrior. The War for the White Cloaks had several warriors who were grand favourites and who were not among the winners, one of them was Queen Alysanne's later sworn shield and another was one of her champions; and in the following tourney for the completion of the Dragonpit, one of the biggest melees ever held, the author wrote that the queen was wise to forbid her champions from participating due to the brutality of the combat, as it witnessed a song of steel such as King’s Landing had never seen before (Ser Lucamore Strong, the winner, was a beast).

And my reconstruction is on the third page.

[KingAerys_II]

Rhaegar is not scarce, Robert is the best Baratheon warrior for me, Rhaegar was a bard, not a warrior, he did everything for the prophecy thing, he became knight, stole Lyanna and died for that song. 

He was not the best Targaryen warriors in history, Robert was the best even more than Borros, another beast

[astarkchoice]

22 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

-Headcanon.

-Better than nothing on Rhaegar's side.

-I said "when he fought Robert", not when he went to war.

-Robert fought in the front line until he reached Rhaegar, then he killed him in a single blow after being wounded.

-There are no more questions to ask, Robert had more stamina than Rhaegar, he couldn't have killed Rhaegar otherwise as he was wounded while Rhaegar was clean...until the warhammer crushed his chest.

Rhaegar is too overrated, his only known feat in a real combat is...loosing to Robert in a single blow.

-he trained innthe red keep...they trained in the red keep,many where.his pals...for them.not to.train together based.onnwhat we know would be bizzare....hed have to actively shun them for that to work

-agreed

-the fought in a battle in a war ! Knights begin evety battle with lance dude!

-no they clashed for some time , robert thus threw many blows before the finisher

-but he didnt lose ina single blow..they clearly.exchanged multiple blows one of them injuring robert

[SirBronzeFalcon]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Fair enough

Hmm a wound from a warlance woudnt be easily shrugged off esp with 2 destriders galloping at a clash, hell poor berics 1st death is warlance through the heart.! Modern tourneys show even tourney lance strikes will leave you hanging from the side of your horse! No on reflection  the gap in jousting skill appears to be way to large with robert indifferent and rhaegar among the very elite when he chose to compete and the potential damage a warlance can cause too great...no it seems they engaged with secondary weapons from the get go..sword vs hammer. A medicore jouster vs an elite one  with intent to kill will just get a lance through the neck, face or heart as poor ser hugh vs the mountain did....thus it probably started sword vs hammer!

He does have battle experience over rahegar yes as for training  no its the other way round. Raehar is a little older (2-3years) and while initaly unenthusiastic about martial training he did partake as every lord did so technicaly trained longer.....its just a book/vision made him.begin.to be single.mindedly focus on being a great warrior   which by all accounts he became!  A sharp mind,.single.minded focus.(barristan) , an apparent  ability to excel at anything at all he chose to focus on   and the greatest sparring partners westeros could produce waitng daily in the red keep probably helped 

 

Quote

No on reflection  the gap in jousting skill appears to be way to large with robert indifferent and rhaegar among the very elite when he chose to compete and the potential damage a warlance can cause too great...no it seems they engaged with secondary weapons from the get go..sword vs hammer. A medicore jouster vs an elite one  with intent to kill will just get a lance through the neck, face or heart as poor ser hugh vs the mountain did....thus it probably started sword vs hammer!

You decide to ignore that Robert was a great rider (I said rider, not jouster) and you just make up the information.

[astarkchoice]

13 minutes ago, SirBronzeFalcon said:

 

I have made it clear that the author established this through SSM and interviews.

And anyway, the author establishes in the books that it is not necessary to be a melee winner to make a name for yourself or be a famous warrior. The War for the White Cloaks had several warriors who were grand favourites and who were not among the winners, one of them was Queen Alysanne's later sworn shield and another was one of her champions; and in the following tourney for the completion of the Dragonpit, one of the biggest melees ever held, the author wrote that the queen was wise to forbid her champions from participating due to the brutality of the combat, as it witnessed a song of steel such as King’s Landing had never seen before (Ser Lucamore Strong, the winner, was a beast).

And my reconstruction is on the third page.

Cool 

So we are literaly told tim and again raeghar was also a skilled warrior too

Ok 3rd page?  Cool

[astarkchoice]

1 minute ago, SirBronzeFalcon said:

 

You decide to ignore that Robert was a great rider (I said rider, not jouster) and you just make up the information.

He was a great rider?  Where does it say that..i think you are confusing him with brandon. 

[Willam Stark]

21 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

-he trained innthe red keep...they trained in the red keep,many where.his pals...for them.not to.train together based.onnwhat we know would be bizzare....hed have to actively shun them for that to work

This is nothing more than headcanon. You can repeat the same thing over and over again, it won't change the facts.

23 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

-the fought in a battle in a war ! Knights begin evety battle with lance dude!

You seem to forget that they didn't fight each other immediately; Robert had to face Rhaegar's men before he could reach him, and the same goes for the prince. Moreover, the illustration of their fight in the world book shows us that they had no warlance in their duel: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Twoiaf_battle_of_the_trident.jpg

37 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

-no they clashed for some time , robert thus threw many blows before the finisher

He didn't hit Rhaegar with these blows, hence the clash and Rhaegar managed to wound him, but the finisher was a single blow to the chest.

51 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

-but he didnt lose ina single blow..they clearly.exchanged multiple blows one of them injuring robert

Yes he did, when Robert finally hit him.

53 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

He was a great rider?  Where does it say that..i think you are confusing him with brandon. 

"The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert's hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream" AGOT - Eddard I

Do the math.

[Lee-Sensei]

3 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Yeah, it's just a matter of weight distribution as much as anything. A (good) sword should have the centre of mass a little way above, or even at, the hilt, whereas a hammer's centre of mass will be in the hammerhead. A hammer of the same weight as a sword will therefore have more inertia and be harder to change direction once moving. Strength will obviously compensate for that a bit, but not entirely.

The flipside is that swords, as you say, are relatively light weapons, indeed, precision instruments, and not particularly well-suited to bashing away at armoured opponents: the percussive impact of a sword on full plate is minimal; it can't pierce the plate; it can't pierce or cut the mail voiders. A swordsman against a fully armed opponent is trying to jam the sword into gaps. Unless they turn it round and use it hilt-first as an improvised poleaxe (which was a thing), but it is still going to be less effective than the dedicated anti-armour weapon that is the hammer. Unless Valyrian steel somehow makes the blade more effective against armour (and for all its qualities, I don't think we've seen it cut plate?!) it merely multiplies the sword's existing advantages, rather than mitigating its disadvantages. 

 

As regards whether Rhaegar is a better swordsman because he is cleverer, has studied, etc... Studying manuals to learn techniques is a thing, but in the heat of battle, theory alone doesn't get you very far. And obviously you need a certain level of intelligence to pick up what's being taught, but that is not a high bar. Book-smarts don't help your muscle memory develop more quickly. I like to think I am a reasonably intelligent person and have had an excellent and long-lasting education, and I have not found that it has made any difference to my progress in the physical sphere relative to my less well-educated peers. 

The best way to get good at combat is to start young and train hard. Most boys in Westeros seem to start reasonably serious martial training at the age of about six or seven. Top modern athletes often start in their chosen field at the same age, if not younger. If Rhaegar didn't get into serious training until his late teens or early twenties, then no matter how hard he trains or how much natural talent he has, he's pretty much automatically debarred from the elite tier of melee combat versus guys of similar age like Jaime, Robert, probably Brandon - let alone Barristan and Arthur -  who have years' worth of experience on him. Rhaegar undoubtedly made up a lot of ground with his training and the quality of his tuition, but I have little hesitation in saying that Robert was the more skilled fighter, in addition to his strength and size advantages. And yes, he has stamina too. This is peak Robert, lean and toughened from a year of campaigning, not fat Robert. Versus Rhaegar who is probably not even at his own peak: how long has he been shacked up with Lyanna and not training seriously?

Jousting is a little different, because according to Jaime at least, who should know, that's mostly horsemanship, and I imagine that of the remainder, nerve and strength count for a fair bit. Actual lance technique isn't irrelevant but it's a much smaller part of the whole, relatively speaking, than swordsmanship is in swordfighting. Rhaegar could well have been an excellent horseman before he started his programme of self-improvement, making jousting relatively easy to pick up. So we probably can't draw too much of a conclusion from Rhaegar's performance at Harrenhal. Even then, for a freeform combat situation, the melee is probably more relevant, and who won that at Harrenhal? Bobby B. 

I would rate Viserys II, Daeron II and Baelor Breakspear above either Rhaegar or Dany. Probably Jaehaerys II too. Dany's circumstances are admittedly special. As above, I'm not convinced that Robert was badly injured by him, given he was up and about in relatively short order.

Nor do I think Robert really fears Targaryens, at least not in the personal sense. He hates them, because Rhaegar stole and (in his mind) killed the love of his life. And he fears the consequences of a Targaryen invasion because invasions are never good and it has the potential to lead to a more general popular uprising. But that's a logistical worry, not the same as fearing them on an individual level. He isn't scared of facing Viserys or Dany in battle, and I doubt he'd have feared Aegon: in fact, he'd welcome the chance to fight them one-on-one, even once he's fat and out of practice (and I wouldn't even give odds on Viserys or Dany to face him).

I agree with almost everything you've said, but to be fair to Rhaegar, I think he started seriously training in his teens. Later than most, but I don't think too late to be exceptional. There are people that weren't particularly athletic that got into sports early in High School and even became professionals, but generally they start when they're young as you've said. I did know a guy like that when I was in school, but he was like 6'6.

[SirBronzeFalcon]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

He was a great rider?  Where does it say that..i think you are confusing him with brandon. 

His performances prove it.

 

Quote

He could no longer tell the difference between waking and sleeping. The memory came creeping upon him in the darkness, as vivid as a dream. It was the year of false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal. He could see the deep green of the grass, and smell the pollen on the wind. Warm days and cool nights and the sweet taste of wine. He remembered Brandon's laughter, and Robert's berserk valor in the melee, the way he laughed as he unhorsed men left and right.

AGOT - Eddard XV

His performance at Harrenhal proved this.

And his performance at the Trident proved this.

When the author sets up a character {Rhaegar} as an elite jouster, he is at the same time setting him up as an elite rider. But when he sets up a character {Robert} as an incompetent jouster, the author does not exclude him from being a great rider.

I will give you an example that is established in the books themselves: Loras & Garlan.

The author has the rule of rival characters better with the lance [joustist, rider (control over your horse, etc.)] and better with the sword [warrior, rider (control over your horse and arms)]. But this same configuration does not make that Loras, a warrior who is part of the warrior's cream (author's words, not mine) [he is a contender], had a better performance as a mounted warrior than Garlan, a warrior who is part of the warrior's cream [he is an elite warrior].

He was almost as glorious as Garlan in battle and the difference between the two is of one calibre (is a way of speaking), and the truth is that Loras's performance itself was worthy of songs (author's words, not mine). If Loras, a contender, could not close the skill with Garlan, an elite warrior, Rhaegar himself, a talented warrior who is simply not among the warrior's cream, simply could not close the skill gap with Robert, an elite warrior who truly is among the warrior's cream.

I hope I have explained myself well.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

-This is nothing more than headcanon. You can repeat the same thing over and over again, it won't change the facts.

-You seem to forget that they didn't fight each other immediately; Robert had to face Rhaegar's men before he could reach him, and the same goes for the prince. Moreover, the illustration of their fight in the world book shows us that they had no warlance in their duel: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Twoiaf_battle_of_the_trident.jpg

-He didn't hit Rhaegar with these blows, hence the clash and Rhaegar managed to wound him, but the finisher was a single blow to the chest.

Yes he did, when Robert finally hit him.

-"The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert's hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream" AGOT - Eddard I

Do the math.

-again that would assume he bizzarely  ignored his friends every day in the red keep for the daily  sparring practice all able bodied lords would do.

-ok that part works 

- right so he didnt just ride over and end it with a single.blow , they swung at each other for a significant period of time

-that doesnt mean roberts a great rider dude it jsut means he can ride a horse

[astarkchoice]

55 minutes ago, SirBronzeFalcon said:

His performances prove it.

 

His performance at Harrenhal proved this.

And his performance at the Trident proved this.

When the author sets up a character {Rhaegar} as an elite jouster, he is at the same time setting him up as an elite rider. But when he sets up a character {Robert} as an incompetent jouster, the author does not exclude him from being a great rider.

I will give you an example that is established in the books themselves: Loras & Garlan.

The author has the rule of rival characters better with the lance [joustist, rider (control over your horse, etc.)] and better with the sword [warrior, rider (control over your horse and arms)]. But this same configuration does not make that Loras, a warrior who is part of the warrior's cream (author's words, not mine) [he is a contender], had a better performance as a mounted warrior than Garlan, a warrior who is part of the warrior's cream [he is an elite warrior].

He was almost as glorious as Garlan in battle and the difference between the two is of one calibre (is a way of speaking), and the truth is that Loras's performance itself was worthy of songs (author's words, not mine). If Loras, a contender, could not close the skill with Garlan, an elite warrior, Rhaegar himself, a talented warrior who is simply not among the warrior's cream, simply could not close the skill gap with Robert, an elite warrior who truly is among the warrior's cream.

I hope I have explained myself well.

That doesnt really set him up as a great rider though the melee is more of a close range slogging match.

Loras by grmms own words is arguably.one of the strongest warriors and best swordsmen in westeros,his brother is the better swordsman yes. 

Overall grmm had tried to establish the fight as an epic encounter between 2 roughly evenly matched warriors and like any fight someone had to win.

[SaffronLady]

5 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Overall grmm had tried to establish the fight as an epic encounter between 2 roughly evenly matched warriors and like any fight someone had to win.

Whatever their relative combat prowess, a battle between a stormlord and a dragon certainly is a duel of fate.

[KingAerys_II]

Rhaegar badly injured Robert, who never suffered defeat, he won 3 battles in 1 day, inhuman stamina, it means Rhaegar was extremely skilled, this is astonishing if you consider he was a singer, I guess he was better than Daemon Targaryen, Aemond, Baelor and Maekar, that's my opinion, he was the best swordsman since Daemon Blackfyre death

Edited August 25, 2023 by KingAerys_II