Your Unpopular ASOIAF Opinions/Hot Takes

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Well she did get Cressen killed, Stannis was very much desperate when she came to his aid.

But Stannis was already fully on board with her before she had Cressen killed.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But Stannis was already fully on board with her before she had Cressen killed.

He was desperate and she told him what he wanted to hear, that he could get the last laugh out of Renly.

He had nothing to lose so fuck it.

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Why?

Without the twincest... what can Cersei do to "start a succesion crisis"?

Not having her king's child. If news of that got out - say Pycelle was not a Lannister fan - then her having kids despite aborting her king's children would lead to a succession crisis.

Twincest is just a very specific form of adultery.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

What would that accomplish exactly? Besides the fact that Sansa Stark does just that but leaving that aside...

What are the reasons Robert has to believe his brothers would act against his son?

Why has he not?

I know it's generally established Robert is not a good king...but a good king plans ahead. He prevents the crisis from arising, instead of solving it. Robert doesn't and shouldn't need a reason to shore up his son's succession by marriage against his brothers.

As for why Margaery over Sansa, the North is much better at defending itself than stretching its hand south.

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Current theories suggest some of the sea peoples may have been fleeing from 'Greece', but the sea people were not a homogeneous group, and I would not describe them as imperialist or genocidal either. There was also an 'Athenian Empire', but it wasn't really an empire, it was another name for the Delian League.

Agreed with hidden contents.

[frenin]

38 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Not having her king's child. If news of that got out - say Pycelle was not a Lannister fan - then her having kids despite aborting her king's children would lead to a succession crisis.

Twincest is just a very specific form of adultery.

So twincest 2.0?

Besides it's really hard to prove the kids are not Robert's, especially if they are not Lannister clones.

 

40 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Robert doesn't and shouldn't need a reason to shore up his son's succession by marriage against his brothers.

He's certainly the first king to do so.

Most rulers generally need a reason for that kind of preventive move. 

Besides the obvious fact that Joffrey was not the problem in the animosity between the Lannisters and Baratheons, it was Cersei.

 

42 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

As for why Margaery over Sansa, the North is much better at defending itself than stretching its hand south.

They were quite vital in both the Robellion and the Dance and the Starks come with the Tullys and the Arryns*, 

[SaffronLady]

19 minutes ago, frenin said:

Besides it's really hard to prove the kids are not Robert's, especially if they are not Lannister clones.

Let's just say even if the fact her lover is her twin is taken out of the picture, Cersei has done enough other things which, when made public, could be spun in crisis-making ways.

21 minutes ago, frenin said:

Most rulers generally need a reason for that kind of preventive move. 

? What

The cases I know of where royal preventive marriages aren't in place are mostly from the 17th century onwards. Before that balans and counter balans was the norm.

22 minutes ago, frenin said:

They were quite vital in both the Robellion and the Dance and the Starks come with the Tullys and the Arryns

And look what the Arryns did for the Starks during the wot5k, lol.

I mean, the Winter Wolves had a medium role in the Dance, but Robellion-scale Northern intervention really happened only this once.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

7 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Well at the very least it would lead to a succession crisis. Sometimes that leads to wars, called succession wars. You might have heard of them.

Fair point.

Find his son a match powerful enough to stare down his brothers, like betrothing Joffery to Margaery Tyrell.

Well you learn something new every day. What's this? I suppose that's what the Turkish government's outlet called the "genocidal imperialist power that invaded the Hittites".

Twitter is so much fun if you know where to look, really.

Maybe he wanted to placate the Tyrells? Or maybe he just never got the idea of what the silver should be after the stag is upgraded to gold stags. Silver wolves sound nice, IMO.

Royal progresses, true dragonlord style.

Changed it to Macedonian Empire as that is what I meant. Happy?

6 hours ago, frenin said:

Westeros is modeled after England however, only three kingdoms are distinct enough for secesion to be a viable option and of those three the Martells are not interested at all in separation. 

What separate identity has a stormlander compared to valemen? A westernmen compared to a Reachmen?

 

The "lots of things ready to boil over" are extrictly tied to the twincest.

Without it we'd have to create an entirely different conflict serious enough to cause a massive civil  war.

 

Agree to disagree.

It's a bad king no doubt, not necessarily weak. A weak ruler is one who can't enforce his authority nor impose his will on his subjects, one who does not care enough to do it is certainly a bad oneb but not necessarily weak. I can only think of Aenys and Egg as the only weak kings, although tbf Egg tried to pass reforms that could only be enforced via dragons.

The rest just seems a bit like rant.

 

Why?

Without the twincest... what can Cersei do to "start a succesion crisis"?

What would that accomplish exactly? Besides the fact that Sansa Stark does just that but leaving that aside...

 What are the reasons Robert has to believe his brothers would act against his son?

 

 

All the things you are saying about about the GOVERNMENT not the KING. Robert controls very little of anything. In real life, China had many very strong periods of government control with incredibly weak Kings for example. Honestly Robert is not how someone imagines a “figurehead” king, but he basiclaly is one. He does no actual governance, essentially at all, and other people are making all the decisions about what is happening in his Kingdom. Robert is a strong general, but a weak King. 

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Changed it to Macedonian Empire as that is what I meant. Happy?

OK. It just reminded me of something funny is all, I don't mean to offend.

Alexander's empire collapsed so quickly, the entire conquest seemed quite like a dream.

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

China had many very strong periods of government control with incredibly weak Kings for example.

And China had other periods of strong government control despite an absentee Emperor who keeps an eye on who's who at court but largely ignores governance beyond factional balance.

I agree with you, Robert doesn't look like a king who's in charge of his administration. Sure he could get the realm to beat down Balon when needed, but he secured victory mostly by calling upon his friends and family, less exercising his authority as a king to call his vassals.

He did bring House Redwyne into that fight though, so he did use some royal authority, just not much.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

43 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

OK. It just reminded me of something funny is all, I don't mean to offend.

Alexander's empire collapsed so quickly, the entire conquest seemed quite like a dream.

And China had other periods of strong government control despite an absentee Emperor who keeps an eye on who's who at court but largely ignores governance beyond factional balance.

I agree with you, Robert doesn't look like a king who's in charge of his administration. Sure he could get the realm to beat down Balon when needed, but he secured victory mostly by calling upon his friends and family, less exercising his authority as a king to call his vassals.

He did bring House Redwyne into that fight though, so he did use some royal authority, just not much.

I would argue Jon Arryn had royal authority. Although we didn’t see it, I think it was all Jon Arryn. Do you what it suddenly reminded me if? lol. the sultan and jafar in disney’s aladdin, lol. The Sultan is a baffoon. Jafar does all the actual governance, and much the same as the Robert situation, we are comditioned to like lazy stupid leaders. I think this is the ultimate capitalist propoganda. Everyone in charge is just kind old, silly people who mean you no harm. In reality, Jafar can ONLY exist with an incompetent Sultan. People like Petyr Baelish can only rise to power again under incompetent leadership. But people are like “Robert is harmless. Incredibly incompetent leaders are good, actually.”

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

But people are like “Robert is harmless. Incredibly incompetent leaders are good, actually.”

I challenge people who say so to working on college group projects under incompetent group heads.

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

the sultan and jafar in disney’s aladdin, lol.

I haven't watched the live-action version, but do you prefer animated or live-action Aladdin?

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I would argue Jon Arryn had royal authority. Although we didn’t see it, I think it was all Jon Arryn.

Now that you remind me of it, this makes sense.

[frenin]

11 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Let's just say even if the fact her lover is her twin is taken out of the picture, Cersei has done enough other things which, when made public, could be spun in crisis-making ways.

Crisis? Sure.

Succesion crisis that leads to civil war? not so sure.

 

11 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

? What

The cases I know of where royal preventive marriages aren't in place are mostly from the 17th century onwards. Before that balans and counter balans was the norm.

You're not answering my point. 

What is the incentive to marry Joffrey to Margaery when the problem the Baratheon have is with Cersei, who will no dount have beef with the Tyrells?

 

11 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

And look what the Arryns did for the Starks during the wot5k, lol.

Yeah, that's the risk you take with these alliances.

There's also a risk that the Lord of Highgarden pulls a Lysa (or Leyton Hightower).

Still and in theory, Sansa came with a far better package.

 

Quote

Sure he could get the realm to beat down Balon when needed, but he secured victory mostly by calling upon his friends and family, less exercising his authority as a king to call his vassals.

Aren't his friends and family his vassals? Or do you believe that when Eddard, Paxter Redwyne, Stannis or Tywin answered his call... they said they weren't asking to their liege but their brother/son in law yadda yadda

 

Quote

He did bring House Redwyne into that fight though, so he did use some royal authority, just not much.

I find this argument quite surprising.

Jaeharys won the Fourth and Third Dornish War by relying on his father in law (Rogar), his brother (Boremund) and his sons... by that same logic does he have zero royal authority?

What do you mean when you say royal authority? What's the criteria, who has it and who doesn't? 

 

11 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

I mean, the Winter Wolves had a medium role in the Dance, but Robellion-scale Northern intervention really happened only this once.

Without them the Blacks cannot win.

 

8 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

All the things you are saying about about the GOVERNMENT not the KING.

In this case, Robert is the Government.

How he chooses to exercise or delegate his power is a different  matter.

 

8 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

He does no actual governance, essentially at all, and other people are making all the decisions about what is happening in his Kingdom. Robert is a strong general, but a weak King. 

Again, a weak King is one whose authority cannot be enforced, either because he is not respected enough or because he has no power to enforce his will.

You can be as active in governing and make all decisions yadda yadda yadda but if everyone is ignoring you, you're by definition weak. And although it's not necessarily true about this case in particular,  being self aware enough to acknowledge you suck at a position and delegate to more competent people doesn't make you weak in the slightest.

Robert is certainly weak of character, wouldn't call him weak king.

 

Quote

 People like Petyr Baelish can only rise to power again under incompetent leadership

Petyr rose in prominence under Jon Arryn's tutelage and Tywin's blessing... Who were by all accounts not incompetent.

People like Petyr Baelish rise to power under any type of leadership given their traits are quite literally: genius competence, usefulness beyond compare and amiable nature. 

Who in his right mind would get Petyrs resume and not hire him?

 

Quote

Just because they hadn't boiled over is not...a reason to believe they never would, lol. Boiling pots always have to reach the boiling point at some point, lol. I don't know, I think you are missing the obvious. 

There is no reason to believe they ever would, those tensions reach a boiling point because of the twincest. It's certainly hard to imagine something of that magnitude that would push the entire country to war.

In fact the only real factor that could  lead to war without the twincest is Dany, otherwise is really difficult the STAB coalition to collapse on itself. There were certainly tensions but those could have been lessened with very little effort. 

For example, marrying Sansa to Robert's heir would go a long way to unite the Starks and Lannisters, lessening the chance of clash, marrying Margaery to the Starks would cement the position of the rebels etc etc.

But all in all, i'm not finding your arguments convincing, at all. 

So and since i doubt it can get funnier... 

Edited December 11, 2023 by frenin

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

16 hours ago, frenin said:

He was desperate and she told him what he wanted to hear, that he could get the last laugh out of Renly.

He had nothing to lose so fuck it.

I'm sure glamours also played a part.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Petyr rose in prominence under Jon Arryn's tutelage and Tywin's blessing... Who were by all accounts not incompetent.

People like Petyr Baelish rise to power under any type of leadership given their traits are quite literally: genius competence, usefulness beyond compare and amiable nature. 

Who in his right mind would get Petyrs resume and not hire him?

Considering we view firsthand how much several leaders think he is untrustworthy and consider removing him from power...a lot of people. I think Jon Arryn placated his wife, not thought Petyr was the best dude ever. As to Tywin, I don't know how much Tywin was involved with Petyr Baelish...at all. I don't remember reading anything about them interacting that much. Didn't Tyrion like...find some of his corruption ....relatively easily? Honestly, Petyr Baelish was playing everyone, so this concept that he is some great hire...is ridiculous. He is probably a psychopath, like..no I don't think hiring someone you think is a psychopath is a great idea, lol. 

When people start singing Petyr Baelish's praises like this, it hurts my head. Petyr Baelish and Tywin Lannister - The two must underserving of praise characters to get the most praise I've seen in almost any fandom. 

Also, a note, I have an answer : Me. I would never hire Petyr Baelish. He would rub me the wrong way in the interview. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 12/7/2023 at 10:16 AM, The Wolves said:

Anyone who doesn’t think Rhaenyra shouldn’t have inherited the throne in book, book readers and even show watchers are misogynistic. That throne was hers and she and hers should have inherited it with out war, death, pain and horrors. 
 

Renly sucked, house Baratheon sucks and I’m glad they’re dying out. 
 

Anyone who blames Cersei for her role in TWOT5Ks but doesn’t give Jaime his fair share is misogynistic. 
 

A lot of characters are interchangeable. Their motivations and old grievances are petty.

 

Viserys Targaryen is one of the most sympathetic characters. He was horrible to Dany but life was so unfair to him. 
 

Lyanna did nothing wrong and Rhaegar’s only crime was leaving his wife to run away with Lyanna. 
 

I hope Rhaegar and Lyanna was a love story. 
 

Cersei is a tedious POV character. Tyrion and Jaime are getting there. 

I am not changing my mind of how I responded to this...but dang, do I understand your desire to jump to this conclusion. In several topics right now, people are just blaming everything on Cersei...and it exhausts me. You know what I've never seen - a Tywin hate post. Maybe I've seen a Petyr Baelish hate post...but only like...once maybe. Yet, people will spend an enormous amount of time hating on Cersei...who is no worse than either of the charcters I just mentioned...in fact, I would say both are worse people than her. It's easy to jump to the conclusion of "sexism" when I see the unequal hate treatment...but ...I still ultimately think it's more about one personal experience they had with someone they....align with Cersei. Like one horrilbe ex girlfriend, or ex-friend, or ex coworker or something. 

I know I personally am aware that my hatred of Tywin is probably influenced by my rejection of controlling father-figures. My dad is not evil, lol, but it is still that personal feeling of resentment I have for him, and how he controlled me, that probably effects me hating him particularly strongly in a world full of characters equally as evil (like Cersei or Baelish). Well, that and people gushing over Tywin. That pisses me off to no end. 

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Considering we view firsthand how much several leaders think he is untrustworthy and consider removing him from power...a lot of people

That's because I'm talking about his "official description."

This is Martin's description of the man.

And again....

I very much doubt these are the only ones but I'm too lazy to keep digging and the point comes across. We can argue about showing not telling all nigh long but Petyr is a parasite destined to thrive under ant ruler. One can easily sees him throwing shit during the late years of Jaeharys to have a war between Rhaenys and Viserys for example or him being the one that drives Maegor and Visenya to kinslaying.

 

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I think Jon Arryn placated his wife, not thought Petyr was the best dude ever.

... I'm sorry but you do not placate your wife by giving her childhood "friends" one of the highest positions in the entire Realm lol.

Arryn certainly called upon him because Lysa's advice but he must've been convinced of his competence to give him the office and to keep him there.

 

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

As to Tywin, I don't know how much Tywin was involved with Petyr Baelish...at all.

You don't remember Tywin confirming Petyr as Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and sending him to the Vale?

Tywin trusted LF's capabilities.

 

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I don't remember reading anything about them interacting that much. Didn't Tyrion like...find some of his corruption ....relatively easily?

Eh, he found his accounting was a... rigmarole (English is not my first langauage so I'll have  to trust Merriam Webster here).

 

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

so this concept that he is some great hire...is ridiculous.

He certainly is, on paper, for the aforementioned reasons.

 

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Tywin Lannister - The two must underserving of praise characters to get the most praise I've seen in almost any fandom. 

Another unpopular opinion, though i touched this before, Tywin has been overrated for so long now contrarianism has decided to underrate him aggresively.

 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

16 hours ago, frenin said:

That's because I'm talking about his "official description."

This is Martin's description of the man.

And again....

I very much doubt these are the only ones but I'm too lazy to keep digging and the point comes across. We can argue about showing not telling all nigh long but Petyr is a parasite destined to thrive under ant ruler. One can easily sees him throwing shit during the late years of Jaeharys to have a war between Rhaenys and Viserys for example or him being the one that drives Maegor and Visenya to kinslaying.

 

... I'm sorry but you do not placate your wife by giving her childhood "friends" one of the highest positions in the entire Realm lol.

Arryn certainly called upon him because Lysa's advice but he must've been convinced of his competence to give him the office and to keep him there.

 

You don't remember Tywin confirming Petyr as Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and sending him to the Vale?

Tywin trusted LF's capabilities.

 

Eh, he found his accounting was a... rigmarole (English is not my first langauage so I'll have  to trust Merriam Webster here).

 

He certainly is, on paper, for the aforementioned reasons.

 

Another unpopular opinion, though i touched this before, Tywin has been overrated for so long now contrarianism has decided to underrate him aggresively.

 

You can’t underrate someone who is the worst. 

And no, there are still plenty of Tywin-apologists around. IE - He is still overrated as he should have NO apologists. No one should be defending this horrible horrible man’s actions. The day he is treated the same way Cersei is, is the day he is no longer overrated. 

[SeanF]

For the smallfolk, the fact of being murdered, raped, pillaged, by invading armies, matters a lot more than (a) who is doing it, and (b) how it is being done.

Death by dragon is no better or worse than death by marauding army.  A Westerosi marauding army, is just as bad as an Essosi marauding army.  Most victims of war will die through starvation, or exposure, caused by having their crops and livestock confiscated, and their homes destroyed for firewood. 

Northern soldiers are almost as brutal as Western ones.  The Lannisters seek out depraved men to serve them, like Ser Gregor, Ser Amory, and Vargo Hoat, for whom war is an excuse to enact their darkest fantasies, and then they let them loose.  But, a man like Steelshanks Walton, who'll slay anyone named by his lord, and rape in the heat of battle, is typical of the Northern army.

[Aldarion]

52 minutes ago, SeanF said:

For the smallfolk, the fact of being murdered, raped, pillaged, by invading armies, matters a lot more than (a) who is doing it, and (b) how it is being done.

Death by dragon is no better or worse than death by marauding army.  A Westerosi marauding army, is just as bad as an Essosi marauding army.  Most victims of war will die through starvation, or exposure, caused by having their crops and livestock confiscated, and their homes destroyed for firewood. 

Northern soldiers are almost as brutal as Western ones.  The Lannisters seek out depraved men to serve them, like Ser Gregor, Ser Amory, and Vargo Hoat, for whom war is an excuse to enact their darkest fantasies, and then they let them loose.  But, a man like Steelshanks Walton, who'll slay anyone named by his lord, and rape in the heat of battle, is typical of the Northern army.

Is that really an unpopular opinion?

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Is that really an unpopular opinion?

A contentious one, at any rate.  At least in my experience

[frenin]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

A contentious one, at any rate.  At least in my experience

You don't like Theon Stark?

[SeanF]

13 hours ago, frenin said:

You don't like Theon Stark?

Funnily, I think that Theon was necessary.  Headhunting is obviously … not great, but it did deter future raids.

Edited December 15, 2023 by SeanF