Why should Renly have backed Stannis?

[Craving Peaches]

I see this claim being thrown around, but I think if you look at the text there is not actually a good basis for it. People say that Renly should have followed Stannis because Stannis is the rightful king and his older brother. However, this ignores the following points:

• Stannis is unable to offer Renly any proof of the thing that makes him the 'Rightful King'

  Quote

  "Can you prove any word of this fable?"

  Stannis ground his teeth.

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  His sister's ire had led her to overlook the true significance of Stannis Baratheon's letter. Without proof, his accusations were nothing

• Stannis doesn't bother to tell Renly his intentions for months, during a crisis period where Renly has to act fast to avoid meeting Robert's fate
• Stannis merely being Renly's older brother doesn't mean Renly has to automatically follow him - the Blackfish doesn't have to obey Hoster if he doesn't want to - and Stannis could not prove he was the 'head' of House Baratheon at that time - Robert dying doesn't mean Stannis is suddenly in charge just like Hoster dying didn't mean that the Blackfish was suddenly in charge and Ned dying doesn't suddenly mean that Benjen was in charge - it is Robert's/Hoster's/Ned's son that becomes the one in charge of the House, not the brother

People saying Renly should have supported Stannis is just people buying into Stannis claims, when actually they are just Stannis being entitled. Stannis did nothing to earn Renly's support. He did nothing to even show he should have received Renly's support in the first place. It is a bit silly. Stannis' entire claim to be King hinges on a shocking and outlandish sounding accusation, and Stannis has no evidence for it beyond 'the Children look like their mother not their father'. He never even mentions the book of lineages, which while still not conclusive, would have been more convincing. The same standard of 'proof' Stannis has for his claim can be used to 'prove' that Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon are all Catelyn's bastards with Edmure. If there is anyone Renly 'should' have backed, it was Joffrey, not Stannis, but Renly understandably did not do that.

[astarkchoice]

They both should have stopped being childish and been incommunication months before the 1st books events (although not sure how much pycelle is to blame there).

Now that said  your other point doesnt hold... edmure does come.before the blackfish (oldest kid of the oldest kid) and while the hoster cant make his brother marry he can command him in most other matters while he remains on tully land or even in the riverlands...hence the blackfish goes to the vale.

Renlys decision comes from many factors

-He hadnt heard from stannis in months and is aware of what a snake pit kl has become esp with the lannsiters (who we know he was clearly trying to remove with his  'margery  looks like lyanna' speil) , once robert is murdered and ned rejects his proposal he has to flee...cersei will imprison or kill all opp in the captial and that includes renly (cersei had wanted to get all 3 brothers as we see in her pov)

-hes watched robert being a terrible king and feels stannis is too inflexible to be a good one either, by  contrast hes charmed many of the  normaly hard to wrangle stormlords as master of stormsend.

-he has been offered  the unquestionable power of the reachs military vs stannis offer of nothing....the issue is they CANNOT allow stannis to ascend the throne and possibly push the florents back to masters of the reach.

-for backing he has many of the stormlords as he holds stormsend , stannis is away odragomstame +.tyrions offer with mycelnea  means the dornish forces must  build up near.passes casing the pro stannis marcher lords to do the same= therefore despite being younger hes got a solild chance of swaying the stormlands to himself.

Edited August 19, 2023 by astarkchoice

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Now that said  your other point doesnt hold... edmure does come.before the blackfish

That was my point though, that Edmure comes before Blackfish...

3 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

hence the blackfish goes to the vale.

Renly is Lord of the Stormlands in his own right, Stannis is Lord of Dragonstone, Stannis has no authority over Renly in terms of a vassal relationship there.

[Alester Florent]

I agree, but as perhaps the board's second-most prominent Renly stan right now (after your good self) that is probably not surprising.

That Renly should, for some reason, on fleeing King's Landing, have gone to Dragonstone rather than Storm's End and/or Highgarden is just crazy talk.

In the minds of Stannis and his supporters (both in-world and in the fandom) I think Stannis is not just the rightful king (which Renly is expected to know telepathically) but the rightful lord of Storm's End too, and Renly is really just his castellan, there to keep his seat warm.

Overall, Stannis makes the perhaps understandable error of underestimating Renly's independence and capabilities. This is probably partly because he still sees him as his kid brother and because Renly's developing character doesn't display the virtues that Stannis thinks are important (while on the other hand being almost perfectly aligned with the values of Westerosi society at large) and because Stannis also struggles to accept that anyone else has independent agency in general.

This leads him to unnecessarily disregard Renly as a potential ally, while at the same time failing to acknowledge that in the absence of outreach from Stannis and disclosure of what he knows, Renly might have his own plans and do his own thing without waiting for permission from Big Stan.

In some ways, though, Stannis also overestimates him: in particular I think he overestimates Renly's independent ambition and ruthlessness. Renly had no intention of attacking Stannis. If Stannis had somehow managed to raise the necessary men independently and gone after King's Landing from the outset, it's hard to see Renly stepping in to stop him. Rather, Renly assumed (probably wrongly) that once the Lannisters were defeated, his position would be so unassailably powerful that the sceptics, including Stannis, would just have to fall in line. Instead, Stannis becomes paranoid about Renly attacking him, leading him to launch a pre-emptive strike which only benefits their mutual enemies.

I do think that Renly's declaration of himself as king was probably a mistake. It may have been a decision he found himself backed into when planning his uprising, but even on first reading the books, when we learned he had been crowned, I immediately felt that was a problem. I don't think it was an entirely ridiculous decision, but once he's been crowned king, he can't allow himself to be un-crowned or to just let whole tranches of the 7K go, so his diplomatic options when it comes to Robb and Stannis are severely curtailed.

[Alester Florent]

16 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

-hes watched robert being a terrible king and feels stannis is too inflexible to be a good one either, by  contrast hes charmed many of the  normaly hard to wrangle stormlords as master of stormsend.

While I don't disagree he feels he would make a better king than Robert, I think the take that "Robert is a terrible king" is one that goes unquestioned too much of the time round here.

I think Robert was, at worst, an adequate king. He had the potential to be better, but the realm was generally peaceful and prosperous under his rule, and when he could be bothered to put his foot down, he tended to make sensible decisions. His main flaw, I think, is not that he doesn't attend the council meetings (he's put capable people in charge, and lets them get on with it) or that he doesn't do his day job of sitting the Iron Throne and adjudicating disputes (it seems that he does, even if he doesn't enjoy it) or that he's allowed the crown to get into debt (it's at a sustainable level, and given that Tywin's first move under Aerys was buying up all the crown debt personally, I'm not convinced that the growth in debt under Robert is quite as spectacular as Ned seemed to believe)... but that he's allowed Cersei to grind him down and sap his energy and enthusiasm to the point where he lets her get her own way most of the time, which makes it harder for him to assert himself when he needs to.

And I find it difficult to blame him too much for that: that relationship was abusive in both directions.

I think if Cersei hadn't killed him, he and Ned would have made a successful partnership.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Craving Peaches]

12 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I do think that Renly's declaration of himself as king was probably a mistake.

I agree unless it was necessary to secure the Tyrell armies, but we will probably never receive conformation on this point so...

[Alester Florent]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree unless it was necessary to secure the Tyrell armies, but we will probably never receive conformation on this point so...

That's the $60,000-question, yeah. Given that it seems on its own terms a political blunder to declare himself king at the stage he does, I have always suspected that it was indeed something cooked up in conjunction with the Tyrells and which he came to believe was necessary to secure the support of the Reach, rather than something he came up with himself and they went along with.

[Craving Peaches]

44 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

perhaps the board's second-most prominent Renly stan right now (after your good self)

How many of us are there? Aside from myself and you. There were a few others but the accounts have not been active in years.

[astarkchoice]

53 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

That was my point though, that Edmure comes before Blackfish...

Renly is Lord of the Stormlands in his own right, Stannis is Lord of Dragonstone, Stannis has no authority over Renly in terms of a vassal relationship there.

Renly is lord of stormsend by decree of roberet back when he was head of house baratheon, when hes dead its stannis whos head of the house that now holds stormsend and dragonstone 

[Alester Florent]

11 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Renly is lord of stormsend by decree of roberet back when he was head of house baratheon, when hes dead its stannis whos head of the house that now holds stormsend and dragonstone 

It's clear that House Baratheon now has three branches, Baratheon of King's Landing, Baratheon of Dragonstone, and Baratheon of Storm's End. Storm's End was given to Renly as his own fief in perpetuity, not as a temporary position, and Robert during his reign holds no more formal authority in the Stormlands than any other king did. (He may have a bit more informal authority thanks to his relationships with the lords there, but it is Renly who the Stormlords are sworn to).

Renly is to the Stormlands what Ned is to the North, or Tywin to the Westerlands. Stannis has no more right to Storm's End during Renly's lifetime than Robb does to the Karhold. If Renly had a clear heir, the Stormlords would be expected to rally to him after Renly's death: they only turn to Stannis because he doesn't (with various other factors that help Stannis's cause), so the lordship reverts to the crown - but this would be the case whether Renly were a Baratheon or not.

It is probably theoretically open to a king to dispossess a house of their seat, but to do so to one of the Lords Paramount would set such an alarming precedent that few kings would dare to try except in the most extreme cases. Even the Peakes - who weren't even a great house - weren't stripped of their principal seat and they are possibly the most troublesome house in Westerosi history outside the Iron Islands.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Craving Peaches]

12 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

when hes dead its stannis whos head of the house that now holds stormsend and dragonstone 

No it's not, because the whole point is that the son comes before the brother, so it is Joffrey who's in charge, and since Stannis has no actual proof, he is not in charge. Stannis is not Lord of Storm's End, Renly is. Renly was made Lord of Storm's End in his own right, he wasn't just a castellan, so there is no way Stannis takes that position upon Robert's death.

[astarkchoice]

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

No it's not, because the whole point is that the son comes before the brother, so it is Joffrey who's in charge, and since Stannis has no actual proof, he is not in charge. Stannis is not Lord of Storm's End, Renly is. Renly was made Lord of Storm's End in his own right, he wasn't just a castellan, so there is no way Stannis takes that position upon Robert's death.

Right so its either joffery or stannis...renly has rejected both  as rightful owner remember!  Robert did not give up stormsend when he became king he assigned his brothers to the 2 major keeps that where now property of house baratheon! The eldest brother is dead thus it falls to the next eldest if theres no legitimate heirs.

[Alester Florent]

15 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Right so its either joffery or stannis...renly has rejected both  as rightful owner remember!  Robert did not give up stormsend when he became king he assigned his brothers to the 2 major keeps that where now property of house baratheon! The eldest brother is dead thus it falls to the next eldest if theres no legitimate heirs.

No. As CP says, Renly is lord of Storm's End in his own right, not a castellan. He's not holding it on behalf of anyone else; it's his, and his heirs', in perpetuity. Robert has indeed "given up" Storm's End. In practice, Robert knows he can still rely on it, firstly because he trusts Renly and secondly because if necessary his personal relationships with the Stormlords probably still carry weight. But after he gives it to Renly, it's Renly's, forever. Robert's death makes no difference to the ownership of Storm's End.

If Renly dies without heirs while Robert is alive, then it reverts to Robert, but that's because Robert is king. The same principle would apply if any other lord died without heirs: the difference is that most other houses are so old they have an heir somewhere, while Renly's house is brand new so it's possible for there to be no heirs at all. And Robert would be expected to grant it to someone else, maybe Stannis or a legitimised Edric but probably Tommen.

There may be a special condition in the grant of title which changes that presumption of ownership in perpetuity by the lord, but we're not told that there is.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Alester Florent

[astarkchoice]

52 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

It's clear that House Baratheon now has three branches, Baratheon of King's Landing, Baratheon of Dragonstone, and Baratheon of Storm's End. Storm's End was given to Renly as his own fief in perpetuity, not as a temporary position, and Robert during his reign holds no more formal authority in the Stormlands than any other king did. (He may have a bit more informal authority thanks to his relationships with the lords there, but it is Renly who the Stormlords are sworn to).

Renly is to the Stormlands what Ned is to the North, or Tywin to the Westerlands. Stannis has no more right to Storm's End during Renly's lifetime than Robb does to the Karhold. If Renly had a clear heir, the Stormlords would be expected to rally to him after Renly's death: they only turn to Stannis because he doesn't (with various other factors that help Stannis's cause), so the lordship reverts to the crown - but this would be the case whether Renly were a Baratheon or not.

It is probably theoretically open to a king to dispossess a house of their seat, but to do so to one of the Lords Paramount would set such an alarming precedent that few kings would dare to try except in the most extreme cases. Even the Peakes - who weren't even a great house - weren't stripped of their principal seat and they are possibly the most troublesome house in Westerosi history outside the Iron Islands.

Dunno its not like the karstarks where they are now seperate  houses  its more like the new house frey of riverrun, the proposed house lannister of winterfell and the upcomming house tyrell of brightwater keep ..ie the new baratheon of kl being above them both.

Either way  renly is rejecting both stannis and joffery as the new heads of house baratheon+ king  anyway

Edited August 19, 2023 by astarkchoice

[astarkchoice]

6 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

No. As CP says, Renly is lord of Storm's End in his own right, not a castellan. He's not holding it on behalf of anyone else; it's his, and his heirs', in perpetuity. Robert has indeed "given up" Storm's End. In practice, Robert knows he can still rely on it, firstly because he trusts Renly and secondly because if necessary his personal relationships with the Stormlords probably still carry weight. But after he gives it to Renly, it's Renly's, forever. Robert's death makes no difference to the ownership of Storm's End.

If Renly dies without heirs while Robert is alive, then it reverts to Robert, but that's because Robert is king. The same principle would apply if any other lord died without heirs: the difference is that most other houses are so old they have an heir somewhere, while Renly's house is brand new so it's possible for there to be no heirs at all. And Robert would be expected to grant it to someone else, maybe Stannis or a legitimised Edric but probably Tommen.

There may be a special condition in the grant of title which changes that presumption of ownership in perpetuity by the lord, but we're not told that there is.

Robert named renly as lord or stormsend and lord paramount of the stormlands and stannis and lord of dragonstone and its islands and his heir  until any legitimate children where born to him. When robert dies if renly acknowledges robert had no legitmate kids then stannis has claim to name who is  paramount of the stormlands by right of being king AND by right of being the oldest baratheon....if renly hadnt the backing of the tryells  most vassals in the stormlands would have pledged as normal to the eldest brother of the longtime reigning family there.

It def is complicated but bottom line renly rejected both and went his own way.

[Alester Florent]

24 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Dunno its not like the karstarks where they are now seperate  houses  its more like the new house frey of riverrun, the proposed house lannister of winterfell and the upcomming house tyrell of brightwater keep ..ie the new baratheon of kl being above them both.

I don't agree that that's the case for any of those houses you mention, either.

Let's say Tyrion becomes lord of Winterfell. Tywin will still order him around, because he's his dad and the Hand of the King. But as lord of Casterly Rock, he has no authority over what Tyrion does in the North. When Tywin dies, the new lord of Casterly Rock - whoever that is - has no authority in the North. Kevan or Cersei or whoever can't order Tyrion around. The only person with authority over Tyrion once he becomes lord of Winterfell is the king.

Likewise, Emmon is made lord of Riverrun. Walder exerts a patriarchal influence over his family, but when Walder dies, Emmon remains lord of Riverrun. His title doesn't revert to Edmyn/Black Walder to dispose of as they please. If Emmon dies, Riverrun goes to his eldest child, not to Walder. If Emmon dies without heirs, the title reverts to the crown for them to grant to a new lord. And after Walder's death his (informal) influence dies with him: Emmon is sworn to Littlefinger and Harrenhal, not to Edmyn/Black Walder at the Twins.

When you create a new lordship, it's a new lordship. It's sworn to its lord paramount (if any), not to any elder brothers of the first lord. That is indeed part of the reason for creating new lordships in the first place, to give younger brothers independent authority.

Quote

Robert named renly as lord or stormsend and lord paramount of the stormlands and stannis and lord of dragonstone and its islands and his heir  until any legitimate children where born to him. When robert dies if renly acknowledges robert had no legitmate kids then stannis has claim to name who is  paramount of the stormlands by right of being king AND by right of being the oldest baratheon....if renly hadnt the backing of the tryells  most vassals in the stormlands would have pledged as normal to the eldest brother of the longtime reigning family there.

This just isn't how it works. I don't know how many more ways I can say that or explain it.

The Stormlords don't turn Stannis down because Renly has declared himself king. They turn Stannis down because Renly is their lord and they're sworn to him. It's the same reason they immediately abandon Stannis the moment they think Renly is alive, at King's Landing. They are perfectly happy to follow Stannis in the absence of their legitimate lord, but that legitimate lord is Renly, for as long as he lives, and Renly's heirs thereafter.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Alester Florent

[astarkchoice]

37 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I don't agree that that's the case for any of those houses you mention, either.

Let's say Tyrion becomes lord of Winterfell. Tywin will still order him around, because he's his dad and the Hand of the King. But as lord of Casterly Rock, he has no authority over what Tyrion does in the North. When Tywin dies, the new lord of Casterly Rock - whoever that is - has no authority in the North. Kevan or Cersei or whoever can't order Tyrion around. The only person with authority over Tyrion once he becomes lord of Winterfell is the king.

Likewise, Emmon is made lord of Riverrun. Walder exerts a patriarchal influence over his family, but when Walder dies, Emmon remains lord of Riverrun. His title doesn't revert to Edmyn/Black Walder to dispose of as they please. And after Walder's death his influence dies with him: Emmon is sworn to Littlefinger and Harrenhal, not to Edmyn/Black Walder at the Twins.

When you create a new lordship, it's a new lordship. It's sworn to its lord paramount (if any), not to any elder brothers of the first lord. That is indeed part of the reason for creating new lordships in the first place, to give younger brothers independent authority.

Sigh id say its way more complex than that and also seems to be partly due to time (ie over time the new lordship grows independent as the old links age like the karstarks did)

We wont agree here and its derailing the thread

 

Can we at least agree stannis predicted as elder brother that renly would defer to him?

Now again i feel both made mistakes esp in not communicating esp in the wake of jon arryns death.

Stannis clearly felt as rightful king and elder baratheon his brother and stormland vassals would follow.him as would the limited strength he could gather on the islands to battle the lannisters ( ie worst case should no one else join in). 

Renly  rightfully scared of the lannister wrath, angry at his brothers murder ,we can assume based on his margery plot he was unahppy with the lannisters around robert..despite looking down on robertd reign and drunkeness he clearly adored his eldest  brother!  he cannot read stannis mind and through the ambitious tyrells is offered instant security + vengance ! He already suspects hel be a better king than either of his brothers.and now he has backers that actively require him to reject stannis due to the florents.

Now we can argue about whom exactly  the stormlords loyalty  should have gone to but tyrion actively asks dorne(in return for the mycella bethrothal) to send forces up.into the passes as a feint to keep what could be powerful stannis backers in the marcher lords out of it.... so there was clearly some? over which baratheon brother the stormlords would follow! And tyrions actions (as well as the huge tyrell backing) helps put the matter to bed for most stormlords

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by astarkchoice

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Right so its either joffery or stannis

As head of the house/king, not as Lord of Storm's End.

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

The eldest brother is dead thus it falls to the next eldest if theres no legitimate heirs

No it's not because Robert made Renly Lord in his own right. Renly was not just holding the castle until Robert died, the castle and associated things were his.

[CassDarry]

3 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Renly is lord of stormsend by decree of roberet back when he was head of house baratheon, when hes dead its stannis whos head of the house that now holds stormsend and dragonstone 

I think House Flint, House Brune and House Fossoway are closer to the new set up of House Baratheon. In terms they are separate branches and have their own lines to inherit, obviously in this case Renly had none...with no named heir either, in theory the matter of inheritance would go to the King, As it is a seat of a Lord Paramount- Hornwood & Rosby went to their leige lord.

But it does look like House Peake ruled 3 castles through one line? Yet I still feel its three separate branches for House Baratheon.

[CassDarry]

I feel this was done intentionally by the author, Renly seems to be the better choice for King But Stannis seems to be the right choice(as in he is the legitimate heir to Robert, as he has only Bastard sons)which we as readers struggle to decide as both arguments have positive & negative points