Why should Renly have backed Stannis?

[James Steller]

Stannis would have backed Renly if their ages had been reversed. He backed Robert all his life when Robert did nothing (as far as I can see) to deserve stannis’ loyalty. He did it because of blood, and duty. Renly cared about neither of those things, clearly.

And as for the whole “Stannis didn’t warn anyone or declare his bid for kingship”, I honestly think that’s more of a plot hole on GRRM’s part. He was still writing the first book, and he needed Stannis out of the way so that it was a mystery. Stannis would absolutely have told Ned if he’d already worked with Jon Arryn. 

[Craving Peaches]

16 minutes ago, CassDarry said:

the right choice(as in he is the legitimate heir to Robert, as he has only Bastard sons)

The only thing is, after reading Fire and Blood I got them impression that the King was supposed to defend the Faith. The agreement Jaehaerys came to with the Faith to get the Faith Militant to disband involved him promising that the Throne would defend the Faith. However Stannis is doing the opposite, allowing Septs to be ransacked and religious relics to be burned in the name of a heathen religion.

[Alester Florent]

5 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Stannis would have backed Renly if their ages had been reversed. He backed Robert all his life when Robert did nothing (as far as I can see) to deserve stannis’ loyalty. He did it because of blood, and duty. 

I'm actually not sure on what Stannis would have done if the positions were reversed. Certainly I don't think Stannis would have set himself up as king under those circumstances, and not just because to do so with a weak claim and like ten guys supporting him would have been laughable. 

He supported Robert in the Rebellion because he was his liege lord and because he was his brother. He decided that those obligations overrode his duty to his king. Granted, I'm not sure how much Stannis's support in the Rebellion was actually worth at the outset. He didn't have any castles or men of his own. At the start of the rebellion, he may not even have been in command at Storm's End, and even if he were, the chances are that if he tried to resist Robert's return, a Robert loyalist would just have knocked him on the head and opened the gates. But Stannis, being Stannis, found it a difficult decision that he still ruminates on decades later.

But a putative elder-brother-Renly is a different matter. Unlike Robert, he's not Stannis's liege : Stannis is an independent lord. And although he is still Stannis's brother, Joffrey is (ostensibly) Stannis's nephew.

So, Robert dies, and Joff becomes king. Renly declares himself king in opposition.

To Stannis, Renly is his brother, but not his lord. He owes him a duty by blood, but nothing else. Joffrey is his nephew and his king. He owes Joffrey a double duty. I think he sides with Joff, at least in the absence of the incest evidence which in the "true" timeline came too late to make a difference to the alliance matrix. 

[SaffronLady]

IMO (and according to how their titles are phrased) post-RR House Baratheon became like the Buyids. So if Renly had children, they inherit Storm's End over Stannis.

As for why Renly should have backed Stannis ... I am also in the confused camp. Renly and Stannis have equal legal claims to KL and the IT after Robert's death, why should he have supported Stannis, asides from Stannis is the elder brother?

[Floki of the Ironborn]

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

IMO (and according to how their titles are phrased) post-RR House Baratheon became like the Buyids. So if Renly had children, they inherit Storm's End over Stannis.

As for why Renly should have backed Stannis ... I am also in the confused camp. Renly and Stannis have equal legal claims to KL and the IT after Robert's death, why should he have supported Stannis, asides from Stannis is the elder brother?

You can't have 'equal legal claims' to a single title in a feudalist society. The elder brother supercedes the younger in lines of succession. Just like how sons supercede brothers, and legitimate sons supercede bastards. 

[SaffronLady]

1 minute ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

You can't have 'equal legal claims' to a single title in a feudalist society. The elder brother supercedes the younger in lines of succession. Just like how sons supercede brothers, and legitimate sons supercede bastards. 

And like the Buyids, Stannis and Renly disagreed who had the better claim. I used equal legal claims because things get complicated by what essentially are 2 cadet branches contesting the titles of the main house.

[Nathan Stark]

As Robb Stark said, "Bran can't be Lord of Winterfell before me, and Renly can't be king before Stannis." I know Renly stans like to wave this fact away like it is a minor, insignificant detail that can be overcome, but it is not. This is not a liberal democracy; it is feudalism operating under semi-salic primogeniture laws of succession. If Robert's children by Cersei turn out to be illegitimate, as indeed they were, then under Westerosi laws and norms, Stannis was the rightful heir, and Renly did in fact owe Stannis his fealty as the younger brother. 

Sure, Stannis can't proove that Joffrey is illegitimate, you say? Well Renly could. He had Edric Storm at Storm End for years, the spitting image of Robert Baratheon, just like Gendry, and Mya Stone shared the Baratheon look. Just like Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen cleary do not share the Baratheon look. It doesn't take a genius to figure this out. Jon Arryn and Stannis himself found out Cersei's children were bastards. Then so did Ned. Littlefinger and Varys definately knew as well. And we are to believe that somehow Renly failed to figure this pretty transparent fact out? Sorry. Doesn't pass the smell check. Renly is a lot of mostly annoying things, but being stupid is not one of them.

That's not to say I think Stannis was being smart to pick the fight he did with Renly, only that Renly declaring ignorance of Joffrey's bastardy is entirely dishonest and self-serving. Of course Renly knew about Joffrey's bastardy. His whole plan in AGoT was to get Robert to marry Margaery, a plan that can only work if you prove Cersei's treachery.

But really, at the end of the day, all this talk of whether Renly knew or didn't know about Joffrey's illegitimacy is a distraction from the bigger issue here: the laws of succession are the best means available in a feudal society for peaceful transfer of power, and Renly intended to smash right through that by jumping ahead of Stannis in the line of succession. Renly said it himself, "the men holding those banners will make me king." In short, might makes right. If that plan had actually worked, and Renly had two or more sons by Margaery, than the precedent Renly set would make peaceful transfer of power deeply uncertain. 

On a final note, using Brynden Blackfish as a means to support the argument here is pretty silly. Brynden showing some independence by refusing to marry according to his older brother's wishes and Renly deciding to jump ahead in the line of succession are totally different things. You might have noticed that for all his disagreements with Hoster, Brynden never tried to usurp him at any point.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Nathan Stark

[Craving Peaches]

@Nathan Stark I know you believe Renly knew about the incest, but I am not convinced. He offers no indication he did know, and surely, if he knew, he would instantly tell Robert because it is almost an automatic win for his Margaery plot. I am sure I read something a while ago about GRRM confirming Renly did not know, but we had a look for it and could find nothing. I wonder if @Ran could help us out here?

Edited August 19, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

the laws of succession are the best means available in a feudal society for peaceful transfer of power

This can easily be averted by adopting the Bastard claim and then excluding Stannis based on religion. King Jaehaerys swore that the Throne would defend the Faith, after all. Not to mention, succession such as this has already happened multiple times, and has not lead to the breakdown in society you claim.

[SaffronLady]

Do we have other cases in the series where cadet branches compete for the titles of the extinct main house?

[astarkchoice]

47 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Do we have other cases in the series where cadet branches compete for the titles of the extinct main house?

Closest we have is the vale...if lil robin dies AND harry wed expect the lesser multiple  arryns to try and claim the eyrie all through distant ties

Or if most of tywin AND kevans brood died wed expect to see the lesser lannisters of lannisport try and claim casterly.rock

56 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

@Nathan Stark I know you believe Renly knew about the incest, but I am not convinced. He offers no indication he did know, and surely, if he knew, he would instantly tell Robert because it is almost an automatic win for his Margaery plot. I am sure I read something a while ago about GRRM confirming Renly did not know, but we had a look for it and could find nothing. I wonder if @Ran could help us out here?

Dunno if stannis felt he had to gather evidence AND have the backing of jon arryn and the infamous book i cant imagine what renly would need. The impression i got was he may not have liked stannis but at least he had some respect for his military veteran brother unlike renly.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by astarkchoice

[Arthur Peres]

I don't see anyone right in that situation. The Baratheon brothers are a mess, and sadly Robert is the most capable, the better man, the one with most sucess, charisma and sympathetic of the three by a large margin. This does not makes Robert a decent man, but his brothers? 

Renly, the negative side.

Renly cleary has a inferior claim, and has no right to throne, if the Lannisters must be overthrow than he should have at the very least reached Stannis that is the natural oposition to them and should be his natural and blood alliance (people went to Daemon Blackfyre for the rebellion for example). Instead Renly decided to march against his brother when he wasn't a threat, ignored his main objective for a side quest and paid the price.

Renly the positive side.

Even though is clear that Renly is ambitious, we are also show cleary in the books that he did not intedent to be king, he wanted to replace the Lannisters with the Tyrells and grow his own influence in court, he tried that with Margeary ploy, and later on he attempts to push Ned to make a coup and be the regent for Joffrey. Renly doesn't know about Stannis intentions since the fool missed the political time when he was too busy brooding alone, and Renly could not waste time when he head was on the chooping block.

Stannis the negative.

Stannis never comunicated his plans with his brother, can't prove his point, had better alternatives like trying to gain support in Dorne or Vale, making alliance with Robb, but instead went directly for his brother throat. Stannis also missed the time to make his claim because he was too busy sulking, and before all this mess Stannis had the chance to inform Robert, but choose to let his king brother to die, ignored royal summons and later on has the gal to call others traitors.

Stannis the positive side.

He has the better claim. Stannis was also testing the waters before making his declaration, when he attempt to convince the Stormlords to his cause, but they choose Renly instead of him. Stannis also attempt to talk with Renly, but the younger was too busy making a mockery of his older brother.

Both of them were cleary ready to commit fraticide, both of them after being presented with the oportunity wanted to be king, and both of them screwed each other... the irony is that if they just stayed put, there is a good chance that Robb never proclaimed KiTN and  goes on alone to kicks Tywin's ass. 

 

[Alester Florent]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

@Nathan Stark I know you believe Renly knew about the incest, but I am not convinced. He offers no indication he did know, and surely, if he knew, he would instantly tell Robert because it is almost an automatic win for his Margaery plot. I am sure I read something a while ago about GRRM confirming Renly did not know, but we had a look for it and could find nothing. I wonder if @Ran could help us out here?

If Renly knew, he did a very good impression of not knowing. At his meeting with Stannis:

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

"Isn't that a sweet story, my lady?" Renly asked. "I was camped at Horn Hill when Lord Tarly received his letter, and I must say, it took my breath away." He smiled at his brother. "I had never suspected you were so clever, Stannis. Were it only true, you would indeed be Robert's heir."

"Were it true? Do you name me a liar?"

"Can you prove any word of this fable?"

 

When he talks to Cat after his meeting with Stannis:

 

 

Quote

 

"You have a cheerful way of grieving," said Catelyn, whose distress was not feigned.

"Do I?" Renly shrugged. "So be it. Stannis was never the most cherished of brothers, I confess. Do you suppose this tale of his is true? If Joffrey is the Kingslayer's get—"

"—your brother is the lawful heir."

 

 

These don't look like the comments of someone who'd worked it out for himself.

 

 

2 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

As Robb Stark said, "Bran can't be Lord of Winterfell before me, and Renly can't be king before Stannis." I know Renly stans like to wave this fact away like it is a minor, insignificant detail that can be overcome, but it is not. This is not a liberal democracy; it is feudalism operating under semi-salic primogeniture laws of succession. If Robert's children by Cersei turn out to be illegitimate, as indeed they were, then under Westerosi laws and norms, Stannis was the rightful heir, and Renly did in fact owe Stannis his fealty as the younger brother. 

...

But really, at the end of the day, all this talk of whether Renly knew or didn't know about Joffrey's illegitimacy is a distraction from the bigger issue here: the laws of succession are the best means available in a feudal society for peaceful transfer of power, and Renly intended to smash right through that by jumping ahead of Stannis in the line of succession. Renly said it himself, "the men holding those banners will make me king." In short, might makes right. If that plan had actually worked, and Renly had two or more sons by Margaery, than the precedent Renly set would make peaceful transfer of power deeply uncertain.

I don't agree that Renly owed Stannis fealty as younger brother. I do agree that if Robert's children are discounted as illegitimate, then Renly owes Stannis fealty as Stannis is the rightful king. And Renly's jumping the queue over Stannis certainly does create a problem. I'm not wholly persuaded that that problem is insuperable for future generations, mind. If we look at history we do have a couple of fairly dramatic occasions of people further down the line of succession pushing better claimants out of the way, and whether things work out depended largely on the competence and longevity of the king in question, as well as the quantity of support his rivals had (Stephen, no; Henry IV, yes; Henry VII, yes; William III, yes; George I, yes).

We might look at Henry VII as an example of a king whose claim was absolute horseshit (much worse on its own terms than Renly's) but he left behind a well-ordered kingdom which passed without incident to his son, and following that to his son's son. If Renly's on the throne for twenty-plus years, upholds the normal laws of succession when presented to him for judgement, and leaves behind a clear and well-established heir, then it probably all works out in the long run (pace intervention by Targ exiles or the Others, etc.) It is far from ideal but I don't think it's such a wrecking-ball to the foundations of society as sometimes imagined. The majority of lords will be sufficiently relieved that they don't have to deal with King Stannis that they'll conveniently forget that Renly leapfrogged him to take the throne. My main query would be whether Renly is ruthless enough to deal with the handful of recalcitrant naysayers in terms that dissuade people from following their example.

Quote

Sure, Stannis can't proove that Joffrey is illegitimate, you say? Well Renly could. He had Edric Storm at Storm End for years, the spitting image of Robert Baratheon, just like Gendry, and Mya Stone shared the Baratheon look. Just like Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen cleary do not share the Baratheon look. It doesn't take a genius to figure this out. Jon Arryn and Stannis himself found out Cersei's children were bastards. Then so did Ned. Littlefinger and Varys definately knew as well. And we are to believe that somehow Renly failed to figure this pretty transparent fact out? Sorry. Doesn't pass the smell check. Renly is a lot of mostly annoying things, but being stupid is not one of them.

I see people say this a lot, and yet that's not what we see in the books. We as the readers of course have an insight into what's going on because we saw Jaime and Cersei shagging at Winterfell: nobody in-character (except Bran) knows about that. Varys and Littlefinger are the two most preposterously well-informed people in Westeros. If anyone's going to know, they will.

But Jon Arryn didn't know, until the very end, and the incest was going on under his nose. Tyrion, nobody's fool, didn't know. We see Ned being presented with the evidence, and he doesn't join the dots until a chance comment by Sansa gives him his eureka moment - at which point it blows his mind. Cat is similarly "speechless" when she hears about it for the first time.

Seemingly the only person other than the two spymasters to have worked it out for themselves was Stannis. Which makes me wonder if he actually did work it out for himself or whether Varys dropped a hint to him. In fact, Varys hints to Tyrion that someone may have tipped Stannis off.

The idea that Robert's children were bastards is an open secret, prior to Stannis's sending out his letter, just doesn't hold water.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Lee-Sensei]

14 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I see this claim being thrown around, but I think if you look at the text there is not actually a good basis for it. People say that Renly should have followed Stannis because Stannis is the rightful king and his older brother. However, this ignores the following points:

• Stannis is unable to offer Renly any proof of the thing that makes him the 'Rightful King'
• Stannis doesn't bother to tell Renly his intentions for months, during a crisis period where Renly has to act fast to avoid meeting Robert's fate
• Stannis merely being Renly's older brother doesn't mean Renly has to automatically follow him - the Blackfish doesn't have to obey Hoster if he doesn't want to - and Stannis could not prove he was the 'head' of House Baratheon at that time - Robert dying doesn't mean Stannis is suddenly in charge just like Hoster dying didn't mean that the Blackfish was suddenly in charge and Ned dying doesn't suddenly mean that Benjen was in charge - it is Robert's/Hoster's/Ned's son that becomes the one in charge of the House, not the brother

People saying Renly should have supported Stannis is just people buying into Stannis claims, when actually they are just Stannis being entitled. Stannis did nothing to earn Renly's support. He did nothing to even show he should have received Renly's support in the first place. It is a bit silly. Stannis' entire claim to be King hinges on a shocking and outlandish sounding accusation, and Stannis has no evidence for it beyond 'the Children look like their mother not their father'. He never even mentions the book of lineages, which while still not conclusive, would have been more convincing. The same standard of 'proof' Stannis has for his claim can be used to 'prove' that Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon are all Catelyn's bastards with Edmure. If there is anyone Renly 'should' have backed, it was Joffrey, not Stannis, but Renly understandably did not do that.

Renly could have supported Joffrey, Stannis or hell... even Edric. He chose the most self-serving option, because he wanted to be a king and it killed him. I like Renly and he would have won without Stannis' assassination, but I'm not going to act like what he was doing was totally above board.

  

13 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

-hes watched robert being a terrible king and feels stannis is too inflexible to be a good one either, by  contrast hes charmed many of the  normaly hard to wrangle stormlords as master of stormsend.

Like Robert.

 

Quote

Small wonder the lords gather around him with such fervor, she thought, he is Robert come again. Renly was handsome as Robert had been handsome; long of limb and broad of shoulder, with the same coal-black hair, fine and straight, the same deep blue eyes, the same easy smile.

I do think Stannis' inflexibility was a problem, but Renly had his own issues.  I do think Renly would make a better king than Pre-Blackwater Stannis though.

 

8 hours ago, James Steller said:

Stannis would have backed Renly if their ages had been reversed. He backed Robert all his life when Robert did nothing (as far as I can see) to deserve stannis’ loyalty. He did it because of blood, and duty. Renly cared about neither of those things, clearly.

And as for the whole “Stannis didn’t warn anyone or declare his bid for kingship”, I honestly think that’s more of a plot hole on GRRM’s part. He was still writing the first book, and he needed Stannis out of the way so that it was a mystery. Stannis would absolutely have told Ned if he’d already worked with Jon Arryn. 

In a stroke, Robert made Stannis one of the great lords of Westeros. He could have rightfully kept all three castles for himself and for his children. Instead he shared his land with his brothers.

 

  

3 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

As Robb Stark said, "Bran can't be Lord of Winterfell before me, and Renly can't be king before Stannis." I know Renly stans like to wave this fact away like it is a minor, insignificant detail that can be overcome, but it is not. This is not a liberal democracy; it is feudalism operating under semi-salic primogeniture laws of succession. If Robert's children by Cersei turn out to be illegitimate, as indeed they were, then under Westerosi laws and norms, Stannis was the rightful heir, and Renly did in fact owe Stannis his fealty as the younger brother. 

Sure, Stannis can't proove that Joffrey is illegitimate, you say? Well Renly could. He had Edric Storm at Storm End for years, the spitting image of Robert Baratheon, just like Gendry, and Mya Stone shared the Baratheon look. Just like Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen cleary do not share the Baratheon look. It doesn't take a genius to figure this out. Jon Arryn and Stannis himself found out Cersei's children were bastards. Then so did Ned. Littlefinger and Varys definately knew as well. And we are to believe that somehow Renly failed to figure this pretty transparent fact out? Sorry. Doesn't pass the smell check. Renly is a lot of mostly annoying things, but being stupid is not one of them.

That's not to say I think Stannis was being smart to pick the fight he did with Renly, only that Renly declaring ignorance of Joffrey's bastardy is entirely dishonest and self-serving. Of course Renly knew about Joffrey's bastardy. His whole plan in AGoT was to get Robert to marry Margaery, a plan that can only work if you prove Cersei's treachery.

But really, at the end of the day, all this talk of whether Renly knew or didn't know about Joffrey's illegitimacy is a distraction from the bigger issue here: the laws of succession are the best means available in a feudal society for peaceful transfer of power, and Renly intended to smash right through that by jumping ahead of Stannis in the line of succession. Renly said it himself, "the men holding those banners will make me king." In short, might makes right. If that plan had actually worked, and Renly had two or more sons by Margaery, than the precedent Renly set would make peaceful transfer of power deeply uncertain. 

On a final note, using Brynden Blackfish as a means to support the argument here is pretty silly. Brynden showing some independence by refusing to marry according to his older brother's wishes and Renly deciding to jump ahead in the line of succession are totally different things. You might have noticed that for all his disagreements with Hoster, Brynden never tried to usurp him at any point.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I don't think Renly knew about the incest at all.

:3( (tumblr.com)

Edited August 20, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[SeanF]

Renly is making a bid for the Iron Throne because he can.  Neither he, nor Stannis, would be pleasant to have in charge.  Each one would be cruel and vindictive. They’d both put Cersei and Joffrey to death (fair enough) as well Tommen, Myrcella and Edric Storm. Perhaps Mya Stone, too.  Renly would do so, for reasons of realpolitik, Stannis due to his own brand of “justice.”

One brother would be like Titus (who had great PR, but was totally ruthless), the other like Domitian.

Edited August 20, 2023 by SeanF

[Alester Florent]

If Renly was going to kill Edric, wouldn't he have done so already?

An unlegitimised Edric is no threat to Renly or to Stannis; nor are any of Robert's other bastards. It's only when the legitimate Baratheons are gone that the bastards are likely to come into play to any extent.

[Alester Florent]

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

In a stroke, Robert made Stannis one of the great lords of Westeros. He could have rightfully kept all three castles for himself and for his children. Instead he shared his land with his brothers.

But it's not fair! Stannis should have had both. Because... he thought so, and he's always right?

I am, for the record, 100% convinced that if Robert had given Storm's End to Stannis and Dragonstone to Renly, Stannis would have resented it exactly as much as he does this arrangement.

Hot take: Robert gave Dragonstone to Stannis rather than Storm's End because Stannis had been in Storm's End for so long he'd antagonised all the Stormlords with his Stannis-ness, so Robert thought it best to give him a fresh start somewhere else.

Quote

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I don't think Renly knew about the incest at all.

Agreed.

[Lee-Sensei]

8 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

But it's not fair! Stannis should have had both. Because... he thought so, and he's always right?

I am, for the record, 100% convinced that if Robert had given Storm's End to Stannis and Dragonstone to Renly, Stannis would have resented it exactly as much as he does this arrangement.

Hot take: Robert gave Dragonstone to Stannis rather than Storm's End because Stannis had been in Storm's End for so long he'd antagonised all the Stormlords with his Stannis-ness, so Robert thought it best to give him a fresh start somewhere else.

Agreed.

I do thinik that Stanns probably should have gotten the better castle, but he didn't have to get anything. That's one of the reasons that I think Renly would have made a better king than Stannis before the Blackwater. We can talk about justice and the law, but at the end of the day, charisma and social skills matter. Stannis doesn't have it.Renly does. Part of the reason that the Tyrells are so deadset against him, is that Stannis is holding a grudge. Renly starved too. It was probably worse for him, because he was a child, but he forgave them. Much like Robert forgave the Storm Lords that fought against him. That's something Stannis mentions about both of his brothers that he doesn't have. A lot of people end up loving them. I think it's unfortunate that the Baratheon brothers don't get along (mostly Robert and Renly not getting along with Stannis). And I do sort of blame Robert for it to some extent, because he was the oldest. If all 3 of them worked closely together and Robert hadn't gotten in bed with the Lannisters, I think his reign wouldn't have been so mediocre. I think it would have been pretty good.

[Alester Florent]

I think Robert had a pretty good idea of Stannis's capabilities and deficiencies. Stannis's stubbornness and insistence on seeing everything in black and white make him a great asset when the chips are down. If you need someone to hold a fortress, or march through a blizzard, or launch an assault against improbable odds, Stannis is your guy. And in these contexts his inflexibility can become an advantage because he'll maintain discipline and see the job done.

But those same qualities make him intolerable on a personal level, hinder him in terms of strategic planning, and would, frankly, make him a terrible king or even lord paramount in most of the kingdoms. He and Robert were just never going to be particularly close, and that was probably apparent during their adolescence. Having decided that Stannis wasn't going to change, Bob gives him a seat that plays to his strengths and a position managing the royal navy, perfectly suited to Stannis's talents. Stannis of course has limited self-awareness, so fails to appreciate that at Dragonstone he's a square peg in a square hole, all the other available holes are round, and resents that he's in the square hole because he thinks the round holes are nicer.

Robert's relationship with Renly is more of a puzzle, because they're much more similar, and the standard fan criticism of Renly - that he's too frivolous - is unlikely to move the dial with Robert (indeed, Renly seems to take the role of government more seriously than Robert does: at least he shows up to the meetings). They don't have the same shared childhood that Robert and Stannis do, so there won't be longstanding fraternal bonds, I guess, but I also wonder to what extent it's envy on Robert's part, because Renly is a constant reminder of his own youth, and he resents how he's ended up. Renly's having a great time hunting, fighting, cracking jokes, hanging out with his BFF, just like Robert used to do, everyone fawning over him just like they used to do Robert, everyone thinking "oh, he's just like Robert was at his age". And Robert feels like all of that was taken away from him. Every cheer Renly gets at a tourney or the like probably feels like a bit of a slap in the face to Bob, in a "that woulda/coulda/shoulda/usedta be me" kind of way.

[Lee-Sensei]

44 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I think Robert had a pretty good idea of Stannis's capabilities and deficiencies. Stannis's stubbornness and insistence on seeing everything in black and white make him a great asset when the chips are down. If you need someone to hold a fortress, or march through a blizzard, or launch an assault against improbable odds, Stannis is your guy. And in these contexts his inflexibility can become an advantage because he'll maintain discipline and see the job done.

But those same qualities make him intolerable on a personal level, hinder him in terms of strategic planning, and would, frankly, make him a terrible king or even lord paramount in most of the kingdoms. He and Robert were just never going to be particularly close, and that was probably apparent during their adolescence. Having decided that Stannis wasn't going to change, Bob gives him a seat that plays to his strengths and a position managing the royal navy, perfectly suited to Stannis's talents. Stannis of course has limited self-awareness, so fails to appreciate that at Dragonstone he's a square peg in a square hole, all the other available holes are round, and resents that he's in the square hole because he thinks the round holes are nicer.

Robert's relationship with Renly is more of a puzzle, because they're much more similar, and the standard fan criticism of Renly - that he's too frivolous - is unlikely to move the dial with Robert (indeed, Renly seems to take the role of government more seriously than Robert does: at least he shows up to the meetings). They don't have the same shared childhood that Robert and Stannis do, so there won't be longstanding fraternal bonds, I guess, but I also wonder to what extent it's envy on Robert's part, because Renly is a constant reminder of his own youth, and he resents how he's ended up. Renly's having a great time hunting, fighting, cracking jokes, hanging out with his BFF, just like Robert used to do, everyone fawning over him just like they used to do Robert, everyone thinking "oh, he's just like Robert was at his age". And Robert feels like all of that was taken away from him. Every cheer Renly gets at a tourney or the like probably feels like a bit of a slap in the face to Bob, in a "that woulda/coulda/shoulda/usedta be me" kind of way.

I do wonder about that. Renly on paper seems to take his government position more seriously, but in the matter of Janos Slynt, we hear that Jon Arryn came to Robert with evidence of his corruption. Renly was Master of Laws. Shouldn't that have been his job? I really wish we'd heard more about what Renly's position on that was.