Recommended: new 'Wall Origin' theory

[sweetsunray]

25 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Mildew and water snakes in the flooded cellar ... to me these seem like references once again to whatever 'watery reservoir. lies beneath the Wall. The snakes are more likely the weirwood roots than ironborn. The house being full may refer to the Wall being manned. As the numbers of the Watch have been steadily dwindling all these centuries, perhaps the 'mummers' have started stirring. Others as mummers is symbolically very powerful - but mummers as symbolic skinchangers is probably most probable. Can the Others skinchange?

I've actually had the sudden thought that the tilted stage, the mildew and water snakes in the cellar might be a reference to the Neck: tilted tower at Moat Cailin, marshes and mildew. Water snakes seems another name for sea dragons to me, as George often uses "snakes" to symbolize "dragons". And there are the lizard lions at the Neck, who apparently are more like crocodiles (???)

A mummer is an actor. I think you're thinking more of puppeteers. I don't think Others skinchange. There aren't enough Others to skinchange that many wights all at once. Skinchanging is also something else than a mindhive. I think you really need to check out Sandkings to get what I mean. It's an excellent example of what George considers a "mindhive". This essay of mine starts with a synopsis of the story: https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2022/10/15/from-sandkings-to-nightqueens/

[Sandy Clegg]

7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The bathhouse can also refer to WF with its hot springs.

Well if the river runs through the Wall all the way to the Winterfell crypts then I think we may as well say these are all kin to each other. I had a lovely flash of tinfoil a few months ago, when I too had associated Winterfell with the bathhouse (because of the springs). Could Winterfell be sinking, I wondered? 

Then I noticed this Sansa passage:

Once in a while, Sansa even missed her sister. By now Arya was safe back in Winterfell, dancing and sewing, playing with Bran and baby Rickon, even riding through the winter town if she liked. Sansa was allowed to go riding too, but only in the bailey, and it got boring going round in a circle all day. - ACOK, Sansa II

Within the bailey, or courtyard, of Winterfell, Sansa feels that going round and round would be something of a bore.

If you turn a screw round and round long enough, you would indeed 'bore a hole'. What could be big enough to bore its way up (or down)  through Winterfell?

 

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I'm not so sure about this. It's not the only face gate we see, notably the House of the Undying with it's black trees (which I would argue are likely Weirwoods) has a face gate as well, and plenty of magic.

The face gate of the HotU isn't speaking or moving on its own accord like a real face. BTW the HotU face gate is open. There isn't even a door inside of it. The magic is behind the door.

I would argue that the black trees are not weirwoods.

6 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Why is it evidence of that?

The whole thing is evidence that it predates the Wall and strongly points to a big ass tree, because there's no other way that a massive ice wall of that many feet wouldn't otherwise make the hollow underground beneath it collapse. It wouldn't last a month before that number of tonnage forces a cave in.

[sweetsunray]

45 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Broadly speaking, the Dome and the Blue Lantern might just be referring to the lands Beyond the Wall, with the Blue Lantern being nearer to the Heart of Winter perhaps. The Dome is clearly a reference to Shakespeare's theatre 'The Globe' which conjurs up the image of a snow globe. GRRM is using some subtle wordplay when he refers to these as being 'more fashionable' than the Gate. What we should infer here is that they are 'cooler'.

More confirmation in this Arya chapter that the Dome = Beyond the Wall here, with a reference to when Sam kills the Other with the dragongass dagger:

I really loved this one! Yes, I agree that the Dome and Blue Lantern refer to Beyond the Wall. And yes, funny that one of the mummers of the Dome got killed by a "trick" dagger. Lovely!

[sweetsunray]

48 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Possibly a return to home via a short cut, yes. Disembodied 'astral travel' via the misty weirwood net such as Bran seems to do might be receiving some symbolism here. Possibly even through time. The fog of history, again, seems very apt here.

Yes, especially given that her steps are "ringing on the wood", and I suddenly thought of "treerings" which is what you count the years with.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

5 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Yeah this theory still has a way to go. The mystic plumbing involved would be bonkers, but props to the YouTuber for even imagining it. It'll live on in the theory community for a long time I'm sure.

Agreed. And definitely props to the YouTuber, he's adding a lot ideas to try and flesh the theory out, have to admire the creativity. 

[Sandy Clegg]

52 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

A mummer is an actor. I think you're thinking more of puppeteers. I don't think Others skinchange. There aren't enough Others to skinchange that many wights all at once.

Well I may be able to persuade you 'Other-wise' (really sorry for that one ...) 

'Mummers' is really an encoded reference here, in the context of 'putting on a play' = 'making a move'. But I still like the mummer/Others connection due to the dagger imagery, too. 

Also, we haven't really seen enough of the Others to know the full extent of their powers yet, but I think there has been evidence ever since the first book that Others may be a threat in their disembodied 'mist' form just as the more solid ones we see in the prologue.

indeed, a host of references to mummers contain much' Other-like' foreboding. Some examples:

"A voice from nowhere," Sandor said. He peered through his helm, looking this way and that. "Spirits of the air!"

The prince laughed, as he always laughed when his bodyguard did this mummer's farce.  - AGOT, Tyrion I

One mummer's farce acts out an attempt to 'get Jon' (as the Others may be wont to do)

Ser Alliser Thorne surveyed the scene with disgust. "The mummer's farce has gone on long enough for today." He walked away. The session was at an end.

Dareon helped Halder to his feet. The quarryman's son wrenched off his helm and threw it across the yard. "For an instant, I thought I finally had you, Snow." - AGOT, Jon IV

You yourself have alluded to pigs being metaphors for armies of the dead, so what better metaphor for the Others than a swineherd? Or Pyp, in this case ...

The mummer's boy with the big ears was a born liar with a hundred different voices, and he did not tell his tales so much as live them, playing all the parts as needed, a king one moment and a swineherd the next. - AGOT, Jon IV

Others on ice spiders near the Wall get a creepy symbolic scene also in the first book.

The Street of Steel began at the market square beside the River Gate, as it was named on maps, or the Mud Gate, as it was commonly called. A mummer on stilts was striding through the throngs like some great insect, with a horde of barefoot children trailing behind him. - AGOT, Eddard VI

The Wall built atop a water source makes it a River/Mud Gate of sorts.

Mummers and kings are connected by Ned here:

"Arya, they were mummers," her father told her. "There must be a dozen troupes in King's Landing right now, come to make some coin off the tourney crowds. I'm not certain what these two were doing in the castle, but perhaps the king has asked for a show." - AGOT, Arya III

The Mummer's Ford is a village wiped out by the Mountain's forces. When he meets the survivors of a nearby town, Ned gives us his own little 'mummer's scene' of necromancy:

"This is all the remains of the holdfast of Sherrer, Lord Eddard. The rest are dead, along with the people of Wendish Town and the Mummer's Ford."

"Rise," Ned commanded the villagers. He never trusted what a man told him from his knees. "All of you, up."

- AGOT, Eddard XI

Which villagers, symbolically, does GRRM want us to think about here? Side note: Wendish is the language of Wends, who are real-life Slavs (slav/slave). 

The mere mention of mummers is enough to make Lisa Arryn turn frosty here:

 I blame your lady sister for that. She frosted up as if I'd suggested selling her boy to a mummer's show - AGOT, Catelyn IX

And those are just from the first book! 

But maybe this one is the clincher. How to describe our 'shadows from the trees'? Varys knows.

Varys smiled. "Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."

"So power is a mummer's trick?"

"A shadow on the wall," Varys murmured, "yet shadows can kill. - ACOK, Tyrion II

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[Mourning Star]

48 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The whole thing is evidence that it predates the Wall and strongly points to a big ass tree, because there's no other way that a massive ice wall of that many feet wouldn't otherwise make the hollow underground beneath it collapse. It wouldn't last a month before that number of tonnage forces a cave in.

What whole thing is evidence that the tree predates the Wall? I don't understand what the evidence is. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I don't see the evidence for the tree predating the Wall.

"How did you get through the Wall?" Jojen demanded as Sam struggled to his feet. "Does the well lead to an underground river, is that where you came from? You're not even wet . . ."
"There's a gate," said fat Sam. "A hidden gate, as old as the Wall itself. The Black Gate, he called it."

I think many, myself included, believe that Gorne's way, a series of caverns that extend under the Wall, is real. I don't know why you think the Wall would collapse a passage beneath it. I do believe in the theoretical underground river which extends beneath the Wall from Bloodraven's cave as well, it may even be what formed the caverns of Gorne's way.

If Coldhands can be believed, the Gate is as old as the Wall (as opposed to the description of the Weirwood in Winterfell being older than the castle). How trustworthy Coldhands is is up for debate.

There were trees growing where the stables had been, and a twisted white weirwood pushing up through the gaping hole in the roof of the domed kitchen.

I like the idea that the story of the Rat Cook is about the tree. Especially given that Coldhands feeds Bran's company "pig meat" that may well have been man-flesh.

 This was where the Rat Cook had served the Andal king his prince-and-bacon pie

...

It looked to offer better shelter than most of the other buildings, even though a crooked weirwood had burst up through the slate floor beside the huge central well, stretching slantwise toward the hole in the roof, its bone-white branches reaching for the sun. It was a queer kind of tree, skinnier than any other weirwood that Bran had ever seen and faceless as well, but it made him feel as if the old gods were with him here, at least.
That was the only thing he liked about the kitchens, though. The roof was mostly there, so they'd be dry if it rained again, but he didn't think they would ever get warm here. You could feel the cold seeping up through the slate floor. Bran did not like the shadows either, or the huge brick ovens that surrounded them like open mouths, or the rusted meat hooks, or the scars and stains he saw in the butcher's block along one wall. That was where the Rat Cook chopped the prince to pieces, he knew, and he baked the pie in one of these ovens.
The well was the thing he liked the least, though. It was a good twelve feet across, all stone, with steps built into its side, circling down and down into darkness. The walls were damp and covered with niter, but none of them could see the water at the bottom, not even Meera with her sharp hunter's eyes. "Maybe it doesn't have a bottom," Bran said uncertainly.

...

When the flames were blazing nicely Meera put the fish on. At least it's not a meat pie. The Rat Cook had cooked the son of the Andal king in a big pie with onions, carrots, mushrooms, lots of pepper and salt, a rasher of bacon, and a dark red Dornish wine. Then he served him to his father, who praised the taste and had a second slice. Afterward the gods transformed the cook into a monstrous white rat who could only eat his own young. He had roamed the Nightfort ever since, devouring his children, but still his hunger was not sated. "It was not for murder that the gods cursed him," Old Nan said, "nor for serving the Andal king his son in a pie. A man has a right to vengeance. But he slew a guest beneath his roof, and that the gods cannot forgive."

If this theory is true, and I know that's a big if, then the roof came before the violation of guestright, not to mention the king is described as an Andal. That the kitchen has a dome for a roof at all is an architectural oddity for the First Men, like round towers, or stories of  knights riding around Westeros long before the Andals came. We have reason to question all of it.

"You won't find it. If you did it wouldn't open. Not for you. It's the Black Gate." Sam plucked at the faded black wool of his sleeve. "Only a man of the Night's Watch can open it, he said. A Sworn Brother who has said his words."

As many have noticed, the words Sam speaks to the door are not the entirety of what the Men of the Watch now swear. But, what this implies is anyone's guess!

Three times he had sworn to keep the secret; once to Bran himself, once to that strange boy Jojen Reed, and last of all to Coldhands. "The world believes the boy is dead," his rescuer had said as they parted. "Let his bones lie undisturbed. We want no seekers coming after us. Swear it, Samwell of the Night's Watch. Swear it for the life you owe me."

Edited August 23, 2023 by Mourning Star

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

'Mummers' is really an encoded reference here, in the context of 'putting on a play' = 'making a move'. But I still like the mummer/Others connection due to the dagger imagery, too. 

If mummers are re-enactments of something that already happened, and mummers are "actors" then I completely agree that Others also fall under "actors" having skin in the game (pun intended). The Others are "actors", the cotf and greenseers are "actors", the dragons and Targs are "actors". The context of other hints and clues always make clear about which mummer it is.

So, the mummers at the Gate are not the Others, but the mummers of the Dome are.

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

What whole thing is evidence that the tree predates the Wall? I don't understand what the evidence is.

Basic physics!

The main reason why the huge Storm's End can remain standing on that cavernous chalky cliff with tunnels beneath it is because it's circular, round. Architecture is physics applied. This is the architectural reason why most keeps are not built straight on top of the most cavernous part of a hollow hill, but around it or to the side of it.

The ice wall means weight. It can only keep standing if either there is a skeleton inside it to keep it standing.

Edited August 23, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Wizz-The-Smith]

5 hours ago, LongRider said:

I would like to suggest that there is an underground river and cave system under the Nightfort. 

Far, far, far below, they heard the sound as the stone found water. It wasn't a splash, not truly. It was more a gulp, as if whatever was below had opened a quivering gelid mouth to swallow Hodor's stone. Faint echoes traveled up the well, and for a moment Bran thought he heard something moving, thrashing about in the water. "Maybe we shouldn't stay here," he said uneasily.   SOS, Bran 1

"How did you get through the Wall?" Jojen demanded as Sam struggled to his feet. "Does the well lead to an underground river, is that where you came from? You're not even wet . . ."  SOS, Bran 1   <<<tricksy GRRM

"The Wall. The Wall is more than just ice and stone, he said. There are spells woven into it . . . old ones, and strong. He (Cold Hands) cannot pass beyond the Wall."  Sam speaking, SOS, Bran 1   <<<!!!!! great, thanks GRRM

When Bran finally lifted his head around to look back up the shaft, the top of the well was no bigger than a half-moon. "Hodor," Hodor whispered, "Hodorhodorhodorhodorhodorhodor," the well whispered back. The water sounds were close, but when Bran peered down he saw only blackness.  SOS, Bran 1

I would also like to suggest that the 79 sentinels are guarding well and the Black Gate.  This chapter, Bran 1, is a treasure trove! 

The formatting got a little borked, sorry about that! 

 

Absolutely. Most of the hollow sites have water present. Whether it's a subterranean river, sunless seas, pond or pool, a well etc. I reckon there might be a subterranean river network as big as the cave network. 

[Mourning Star]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Basic physics!

Basic physics says the magic tree predates the magic wall. OK

[Wizz-The-Smith]

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

With the exception of the Black Gate, there is no evidence of any Weirwoods in the castles of the Night's Watch or along (or in) the Wall

Except for the three castles that cut back the trees, there is evidence of weirwoods along the entirety of the Wall.

Quote

Tyrion had heard that elsewhere along the Wall, between the three fortresses, the wildwood had come creeping back over the decades, that there were places where grey-green sentinels and pale white weirwoods had taken root in the shadow of the Wall itself, but Castle Black had a prodigious appetite for firewood, and here the forest was still kept at bay by the axes of the black brothers. (AGOT, Tyrion III)

I think these weirwoods may have punched their way through to the surface like the one at the Nightfort.

[Sandy Clegg]

14 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

If mummers are re-enactments of something that already happened, and mummers are "actors" then I completely agree that Others also fall under "actors" having skin in the game (pun intended). The Others are "actors", the cotf and greenseers are "actors", the dragons and Targs are "actors". The context of other hints and clues always make clear about which mummer it is.

 

Maybe I have a broader definition of what mummers are, but it definitely includes mimicry, and therefore can be analogous to skinchanging. In ACOK, George develops the theme with the Bloody Mummers - possibly alluding to Bloody Others - or Others in human (blood) form? 

Mummers' mimicry talents are observed here;

The one on the end was some sort of damned mummer. He used my own voice to command that the River Gate be opened. - ACOK, Catelyn V

A river gate opened by a mummer's trick? Sounds like something an Other might do, if we continue to read 'river gates' as metaphorical 'Walls'.

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[sweetsunray]

45 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

That the kitchen has a dome for a roof at all is an architectural oddity for the First Men, like round towers, or stories of  knights riding around Westeros long before the Andals came.

You're buying into Andal propaganda. The Andals never built anything in stone in Andalos. A whole kingdom from the Rhoyne, the lagoon of Braavos, Lorath, hills of Norvos and the Axe, and there's no known city of them. No ruin on the maps within Andalos. But south and east you find plenty of ruins: Rhoynish, Sarnori, Qaathi even in the red waste. But nothing, absolutely nada in Andalos. We do know that the last king of Andalos, who built a palace in the heart of the stone maze of the mazemakers at the biggest island of Lorath, had a "wooden hall". His palace was made of wood. In 20 years he managed to become the great overking of all Andalos, was ambitious and vein enough to try and march and besiege Norvos itself. 100 dragons flew from Old Valyria to burn him and his army right there and then and then flew on to put his wooden palace and the fisher villages on Lorath to the torch. The maze still stood, but blackened from the fire.

So, the Andals never built in stone, not until they had defeated the army of the First Men in the Vale, and at some point wanted to build a keep in stone (Gate of the Moon), and then sent people to learn from the buildings already in the rest of Westeros to build the Eyrie.

Round towers such as the First Keep and Storm's End being round makes complete sense as a development without any help of Andals, once you realize that beneath are tunnels and caverns. A round tower spreads the forces of the weight. A square tower would easily partially collapse on such a terrain. How do we know this? In our real world architecture development, square towers biggest weakness was tunneling from armies beneath the corners. While round towers could withstand that.

Except in Westeros we already have tunnels and elaborate cave systems that preceded the building of towers, and those that are built closest or on top of such a tunnel system are "round": storm's end and the first keep of WF. It's possible that Starks and Durrandons tried out square towers first, but soon found out they collapsed or tore and were unsafe and were rebuilt and rebuilt until they discovered that round worked.

Other houses of FM may not have cared so much, because they built not on top of the hollow hills, but around it. But by the time the Andals invaded and besieged or threatened to besiege their castle after learning about what befell the Riverlanders, they prepared by altering their defenses by adding round towers.

But that the FM learned architecture from the Andals is laughable. By all accounts we have about the Andals in Andalos, they were a migratory people where even the proudest of them thought a wooden hall was perfect for him. Culturally we should compare the Andals of Andalos more with the Dothraki than the ones who "cultured" Westeros. What they had was steel and writing. And they only had the steel because the Rhoynish didn't want to remain in the Hills of Norvos to prevent the Hairy Men from coming back so they taught it at the people nearest to the hills - the Andals in the Axe (which I believe to have been the original wood building people in the Hill of Norvos who got invaded by the Hairy Men because they didn't have any knowledge of plate armor then, and their descendents survived in the Axe). They killed greenseers and skinchangers with steel, forcing a critical collapse in the raven communication system and their septons started to write down songs and stories and names. The septons wrote in their own language, because everybody else was illiterate, and they decided on the spelling of loan words and names or the translation of it.

"Night's Watch" or "Knight's Watch"? There is 0 phonetical difference, zero.

"The knights watch" or "the Knight's Watch?

"the knights watch" or "the knights see"?

The maesters were eager to learn this writing and the kings were in need of men who could write to keep using the ravens that couldn't speak anymore, because there were no greenseers or skinchangers anymore and their pet ravens could only say "corn" after the massacres in the Riverlands. Before long the kings demanded these maesters to teach them writing so they could read the messages themselves, because for sure some illiterate king got killed via treachery because his maester was some bastard son of the enemy and lied about the messages that arrived via raven. And so, everybody learned to read and write in the same language that the septons used, the Common Tongue, instead of the Old Tongue. They forgot the Old Tongue, and couldn't know what was their FM culture anymore and what was Andal.

So, no there are no architectural oddities of the FM's architectural capabilities prior to Andals. But I wasn't talking about the kitchen. I was talking about the physics of an ice wall that goes straight up without any support on top of a tunnel system like that we see as in the Nightfort and a gate beneath it, and not being crushed. It only works if you have a giant tree as a vertical weight carrier to displace the weight forces of all that tonnage of ice. 

And the ice isn't magical in that sense. The ward is the magic. It's still frozen water and weighs a massive amount and is vertical. It's not special ice that weighs lighter than normal ice, or that floats. Just think of a glacier: they aren't vertical walls, but ice rivers.

Edited August 23, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Sandy Clegg]

10 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Skagos lies in the bay of "seals". So, the island basically is warded, and the bay of "seals'" is a sea (a green sea?), aka see. So, a seeing ward around the stone. We don't have much yet on this island

Well if Skagos is metaphorically 'sealed' or warded, it appears that seal is slowly melting away (as a wax seal anyway):

Quote

A finger of warm wax was puddling out across the Bay of Seals, slow as a glacier - ADWD, Jon IV

 

[Mourning Star]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

You're buying into Andal propaganda. The Andals never built anything in stone in Andalos. A whole kingdom from the Rhoyne, the lagoon of Braavos, Lorath, hills of Norvos and the Axe, and there's no known city of them.

This wasn't what I was getting at, still I think the evidence is against your theory:

The Gardeners sought after Andal craftsmen as well and encouraged their lords bannermen to do the same. Blacksmiths and stonemasons in particular were handsomely rewarded. The former taught the First Men to arm and armor themselves in iron in place of bronze; the latter helped them strengthen the defenses of their castles and holdfasts.

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

No ruin on the maps within Andalos. But south and east you find plenty of ruins: Rhoynish, Sarnori, Qaathi even in the red waste. But nothing, absolutely nada in Andalos. We do know that the last king of Andalos, who built a palace in the heart of the stone maze of the mazemakers at the biggest island of Lorath, had a "wooden hall". His palace was made of wood. In 20 years he managed to become the great overking of all Andalos, was ambitious and vein enough to try and march and besiege Norvos itself. 100 dragons flew from Old Valyria to burn him and his army right there and then and then flew on to put his wooden palace and the fisher villages on Lorath to the torch. The maze still stood, but blackened from the fire.

So, the Andals never built in stone, not until they had defeated the army of the First Men in the Vale, and at some point wanted to build a keep in stone (Gate of the Moon), and then sent people to learn from the buildings already in the rest of Westeros to build the Eyrie.

We have had no PoV there to find any ruins. The closest we get:

"This is Andalos, my friend. The land your Andals came from. They took it from the hairy men who were here before them, cousins to the hairy men of Ib. The heart of Hugor's ancient realm lies north of us, but we are passing through its southern marches. In Pentos, these are called the Flatlands. Farther east stand the Velvet Hills, whence we are bound."

If they learned ironworking from the Rhoynar, why not masonry as well? I think this is the far more interesting takeaway, as the Adnals aren't the only possible source for these technologies, and clearly weren't the first. 

In the aftermath of his victory, King Theon raised his own fleet and crossed the narrow sea to the shores of Andalos, with Argos's corpse lashed to the prow of his flagship. There, it is said, he took a bloody vengeance, burning a score of villages, capturing three tower houses and a fortified sept, and putting hundreds to the sword.

A tower house is a stone structure. I see no reason to doubt that the Andals could build in stone, but that's not the point.

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Round towers such as the First Keep and Storm's End being round makes complete sense as a development without any help of Andals, once you realize that beneath are tunnels and caverns. A round tower spreads the forces of the weight. A square tower would easily partially collapse on such a terrain. How do we know this? In our real world architecture development, square towers biggest weakness was tunneling from armies beneath the corners. While round towers could withstand that.

I understand why round towers were advantageous, this doesn't help explain the discrepancy as described in the text.

Drum towers and half-moons held up better against catapults, since thrown stones were more apt to deflect off a curved wall, but Raventree predated that particular bit of builder's wisdom.

...

Storm's End is surely an old castle, but when compared to the ruined ringforts of the First Men or even the First Keep of Winterfell (which a past maester in service to the Starks examined and found to have been rebuilt so many times that a precise dating could not be made), the great tower and perfectly joined stones of the Storm's End curtain wall seem much beyond what the First Men were capable of for many thousands of years. The great effort involved in raising the Wall was one thing, but that was more a brute effort than the high art needed to make a wall where even the wind cannot find purchase. Archmaester Vyron, in his Triumphs and Defeats, speculates that the tale's claim that the final form of Storm's End was the seventh castle shows a clear Andal influence, and if true, this suggests the possibility that the final form of the castle was only achieved in Andal times. Mayhaps the castle was rebuilt on the site of earlier castles, but if so, it was long after Durran Godsgrief and his fair Elenei had passed from this earth.

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Except in Westeros we already have tunnels and elaborate cave systems that preceded the building of towers, and those that are built closest or on top of such a tunnel system are "round": storm's end and the first keep of WF. It's possible that Starks and Durrandons tried out square towers first, but soon found out they collapsed or tore and were unsafe and were rebuilt and rebuilt until they discovered that round worked.

I would suggest this is evidence of influence in their construction that was not First Men. I think that's the takeaway, not that it had to be Andals, that's the false assumption.

I don't think that Stormsend, Winterfell and the Hightower being associated with Bran the Builder is a coincidence.

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Other houses of FM may not have cared so much, because they built not on top of the hollow hills, but around it. But by the time the Andals invaded and besieged or threatened to besiege their castle after learning about what befell the Riverlanders, they prepared by altering their defenses by adding round towers.

But that the FM learned architecture from the Andals is laughable. By all accounts we have about the Andals in Andalos, they were a migratory people where even the proudest of them thought a wooden hall was perfect for him. Culturally we should compare the Andals of Andalos more with the Dothraki than the ones who "cultured" Westeros.

I'm not suggesting that they learned from the Andals long before the Andals came, but that what they learned from someone was later attributed to the Andals, like the Andal King in the Rat Cook story, the knights riding around long before Westeros had knights as we know them. Things like the round towers, the gargoyles in Winterfell, the tales of the Other's hating iron, the dome in the Nightfort, all point to a non-Firstmen influence long before the Andals came to Westeros.

[Mourning Star]

54 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Except for the three castles that cut back the trees, there is evidence of weirwoods along the entirety of the Wall.

The three castles that still cut back trees, they used to clear more.

Tyrion had heard that elsewhere along the Wall, between the three fortresses, the wildwood had come creeping back over the decades, that there were places where grey-green sentinels and pale white weirwoods had taken root in the shadow of the Wall itself, but Castle Black had a prodigious appetite for firewood, and here the forest was still kept at bay by the axes of the black brothers.

I'm open to evidence of Weirwoods along the entirety of the Wall, but it seems to me they are described on the Northern side.

54 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

I think these weirwoods may have punched their way through to the surface like the one at the Nightfort.

I don't hate the idea that the Weirwoods begin underground, but I don't know that it helps us determine if the Black Gate predates the Wall.

I think that the idea that the Weirwoods don't need the sun to grow is ominous, given the Long Night.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Mourning Star

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Mourning Star said:

The Gardeners sought after Andal craftsmen as well and encouraged their lords bannermen to do the same. Blacksmiths and stonemasons in particular were handsomely rewarded. The former taught the First Men to arm and armor themselves in iron in place of bronze; the latter helped them strengthen the defenses of their castles and holdfasts.

As I said you're buying into Andal propaganda.

The sole reason the maesters disagree with septons' claim about how they knew about forging iron, is because they have hot headed Dorne right next door and the Dornish are part Rhoynish.

But they contort themselves in the most absurd directions to even claim that Storm's End must have been built by Andals. While the septons don't even claim that, but claim they besieged it seven times and failed every time.

Why did they fail? Because it was round already.

2 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

We have had no PoV there to find any ruins. The closest we get:

We don't need any POV. We have actual maps of Essos. George RR Martin's The Lands of Ice and Fire. These are the official maps of Essos and Westeros and islands and mapped parts of Sothoryos. And any name of a ruin you find on it, you can check on the Wiki or the WoIaF app. On those maps you see ruins of varioius Rhoynish cities south of Andalos, and east of it. But in all of the Andalos region you only see Pentos, Norvos, Braavos, Lorath and a Rhoynish ruin Ghoyan Drohe. Voila that's it.

Quote

The Andals originated in the lands of the Axe, east and north of where Pentos now lies, though they were for many centuries a migratory people who did not remain in one place for long. (tWoIaF - Ancient History: the Arrivals of the Andals)

Ever a quarrelsome people, the Andals spent the next thousand years warring one upon the other, but at last a warrior styling himself Qarlon the Great brought all the islands [of Lorath] under his sway. The histories, such as they are, claim he raised a great wooden keep at the center of Lorassyon's vast, haunted maze and decorated his halls with the heads of his slain foes. It was Qarlon's dream to make himself King of All Andals, and to that end he went forth time and time again against the petty kings of Andalos. After twenty years and as many wars, the writ of Qarlon the Great extended from the lagoon where Braavos would one day rise all the way east to the Axe, and as far south as the headwaters of the Upper Rhoyne and Noyne.
But his southward expansion brought him into conflict not only with other Andal kings but also the Free City of Norvos on the Noyne. When the Norvoshi closed the river against him, he left his hall in the maze to lead the attack against them, defeating them in two pitched battles in the hills. Unwisely, he took these victories too much to heart and marched against Norvos itself. The Norvoshi sent to Valyria for help, and the Freehold rose to the defense of its distant daughter, though all the lands of the Andals and the Rhoynar lay between them.
Distances meant little and less to the dragonlords in the summer of their power, however. It is written in The Fires of the Freehold that a hundred dragons took to the skies, following the great river north to descend upon the Andals as they lay siege to Norvos. Qarlon the Great burned with his army, and afterward the dragonlords flew onward, bringing blood and fire to the isles of Lorath. Qarlon's great keep went up in flames, as did the towns and fishing villages along his shores. Even the great stones of the mazes were scorched and blackened by the firestorms that swept across the islands. It is said that not a man, woman, or child survived the Scouring of Lorath, so hot did those fires burn. (tWoIaF - The Free Cities: Lorath)

Though Great Norvos dominates the headwaters of the Rhoyne today, the Norvoshi are not descended from the Rhoynar who ruled that mighty river of old. Like the other Free Cities, Norvos is a daughter of Valyria. Yet before the Valyrians another people dwelt along the Noyne where Norvos stands today, raising rude villages of their own. Who were these predecessors? Some believe them to have been kin to the mazemakers of Lorath, but that seems unlikely, for they built in wood, not stone, and left no mazes to confound us. Others suggest that they were cousins of the men of Ib. Most, however, believe them to have been Andals. (tWoIaF - The Free Cities: Norvos)

The map and these three quotes are enough to know the Andals only ever built in wood in Andalos and never settled anywhere permanently, never built a city, never even built a stone castle.

 

[Mourning Star]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

The sole reason the maesters disagree with septons' claim about how they knew about forging iron, is because they have hot headed Dorne right next door and the Dornish are part Rhoynish.

But they contort themselves in the most absurd directions to even claim that Storm's End must have been built by Andals. While the septons don't even claim that, but claim they besieged it seven times and failed every time.

I'm not claiming Stormsend was built by Andals, but I think you've reached the wrong conclusion.

Why didn't all First Men use Iron and build round towers and walls?

I think the discrepancy is clearly intentional.

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

We don't need any POV. We have actual maps of Essos. George RR Martin's The Lands of Ice and Fire. These are the official maps of Essos and Westeros and islands and mapped parts of Sothoryos. And any name of a ruin you find on it, you can check on the Wiki or the WoIaF app. On those maps you see ruins of varioius Rhoynish cities south of Andalos, and east of it. But in all of the Andalos region you only see Pentos, Norvos, Braavos, Lorath and a Rhoynish ruin Ghoyan Drohe. Voila that's it.

As I pointed to above the quote from the world of ice and fire describes stone structures in Andalos captured by Theon Stark.

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

The map and these three quotes are enough to know the Andals only ever built in wood in Andalos and never settled anywhere permanently, never built a city, never even built a stone castle.

I don't agree with this conclusion given the evidence in the text, including the quotes above.