Clarifying Euron's Relationship to Qarth

[Hippocras]

43 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Though this comment stands for the main series, both Euron and Salador were adults before the AGOT, and Salador is probably already an old man when the very first scene rolls around. Do we have clues that their paths crossed somewhere in the past, or clues their paths had not crossed?

Lml once talked about Euron being Urrathon Night-Walker, so we should be able to conclude Euron has at least sailed to Qarth and made an alter ego for himself there. Maybe Urrathon is Euron's nom de plume amongst the Tourmaline Brotherhood? Perhaps an observer, like Palestine in the UN.

Yes! Thanks for that. It is lightly supported as an idea, but still, clearly supported. And if it is true it means he has a glass candle, which is quite scary indeed.

[Gilbert Green]

On 11/30/2023 at 2:25 AM, Hippocras said:

Dany decided to go to Slaver's Bay while already on the boat. Everyone in Qarth would have believed she was headed for Pentos, because that was the plan when they left harbour. Including Pree and his 3 warlock companions.

So if Euron first heard about Dany and her dragons in or near Qarth (which seems likely because that is where the news got out in general) then it makes sense that he decided to find her on her way to Pentos. Only she did not go to Pentos. So instead Euron ended up with Pree and companions as captives.

The only question is if he just randomly hear the news about Dany like everyone else did, or if he had some connection to Qarth, and indeed to the brotherhood of pirates there.

Dany left Qarth for Pentos.  The Warlocks left to follow Dany.  Euron, if he started in Qarth (which is plausible) may have followed the Warlocks.

Dany turned aside for Slavers Bay.  The Warlocks, with their mystical powers, might have ways of realizing this.  Alternatively Euron, having captured the Warlocks, and being something of a magician himself, might also realize this.

Euron then arrives at the Iron Islands, knowing already that there are 3 dragons in the world, and he knows where to find them.  Does he think they are in Qarth?  Pentos?  Or does he know they are in Slavers Bay.

At the Shields, in the Reaver chapter, Euron's Irongborn subjects already know that Dany and her dragons are supposed to be in Slavers' Bay.  Is this new information?  Or is it something Euron already arrived at the Kingsmoot knowing?

People tend to assume that Dany was in Qarth when Euron reaches the Iron Islands.  But that assumes the chapters are presented in Chronological Order.  The "Cavill on Chronology" warns us this is not the case.

[Craving Peaches]

On 11/28/2023 at 1:30 PM, Hippocras said:

the first being that of course they seem to have been annoyed by Dany destroying the House of the Undying which suggests they have a closer relationship to warlocks in Qarth than the Thirteen do

To be fair, they could just be annoyed because Daenerys burned down a site of historical/cultural significance? I don't particularly care about, for instance, Edinburgh castle (I think there are plenty of better Scottish Castles elsewhere) but if someone launched a rocket at it I would not be very happy.

Because no one knows that Daenerys was attacked first, to them it looks like she burned down an important Qartheen institution for no reason and then was getting away with it with no consequences.

Anyway, this might interest some people about tourmaline:

Tourmaline - Wikipedia

Quote

Most commonly black, but can range from colorless to brown, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet, pink, or hues in-between. It can also be bi-colored, or even tri-colored. Rarely, it can be found as neon green or electric blue.

A rainbow gem... Who else has a strong connection with rainbows?

[Hippocras]

On 12/1/2023 at 9:29 PM, Craving Peaches said:

To be fair, they could just be annoyed because Daenerys burned down a site of historical/cultural significance? I don't particularly care about, for instance, Edinburgh castle (I think there are plenty of better Scottish Castles elsewhere) but if someone launched a rocket at it I would not be very happy.

Because no one knows that Daenerys was attacked first, to them it looks like she burned down an important Qartheen institution for no reason and then was getting away with it with no consequences.

Yes, the TB may simply have been annoyed I agree. It might not mean anything, or it might.

I have noticed that Qarth characters very often say the opposite of what they mean. The groups who called for her to be expelled may be the same ones who are actually happy about the weakening of a rival faction in Qarth. If we speculate that Euron is indeed Urrathon Night-Walker with the glass candles and a house in Qarth, and that he is a member or ally of the TB, but that the TB were strengthened when the HotU was destroyed, while the Thirteen and the Warlocks lost influence, Euron's capture of Pree and company makes lots of sense.

 

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

@Craving Peaches

I actually did a search for rainbow and ASOIAF because I couldn’t think of anything. What came up was the Rainbow guard of Renly Baratheon.

In that case the rainbow is a reference to the Fot7 which will certainly interest @SaffronLady.For the Faith, the rainbow is a religious symbol apparently. 

The warlocks I believe made reference to facets, and rainbows are light split via optical effects such as prisms or water droplets into their different frequencies, which is remarkably similar to facets, basically the same thing actually, in the case of prisms.

The Fot7 believes the 7 are really different aspects of one deity but that splitting them into separate representations is helpful for simpler folk. It therefore makes sense that this idea of rainbows is connected to the Fot7.

This of course opens up the possibility that warlocks, the Tourmaline Brotherhood, and the Fot7 are connected, at least historically. If that is the case, it would be hard to see Euron as anything but a rival and antagonist. It doesn’t fit with the Qartheen saying the opposite of what they mean, but it does fit with the sequence of known facts and events reasonably well.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Hippocras

[SaffronLady]

27 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

The warlocks I believe made reference to facets

After going through a search of ice and fire for "warlocks" and "facet", I found no mention of warlocks referencing facets. In fact, "facet" appears only twice:

Quote

They knelt in the grass beneath the weeping woman, facing each other, with Lannister between them. The septon removed a faceted crystal sphere from the soft cloth bag at his waist. He lifted it high above his head, and the light shattered. Rainbows danced across the Imp's face. In a high, solemn, singsong voice, the septon asked the gods to look down and bear witness, to find the truth in this man's soul, to grant him life and freedom if he was innocent, death if he was guilty. His voice echoed off the surrounding towers.

- AGOT Cat 7

Quote

Do all gods feel so lonely? Some must, surely. Missandei had told her of the Lord of Harmony, worshiped by the Peaceful People of Naath; he was the only true god, her little scribe said, the god who always was and always would be, who made the moon and stars and earth, and all the creatures that dwelt upon them. Poor Lord of Harmony. Dany pitied him. It must be terrible to be alone for all time, attended by hordes of butterfly women you could make or unmake at a word. Westeros had seven gods at least, though Viserys had told her that some septons said the seven were only aspects of a single god, seven facets of a single crystal. That was just confusing. The red priests believed in two gods, she had heard, but two who were eternally at war. Dany liked that even less. She would not want to be eternally at war.

- ASOS Dany 6

[Hippocras]

9 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

After going through a search of ice and fire for "warlocks" and "facet", I found no mention of warlocks referencing facets. In fact, "facet" appears only twice:

- AGOT Cat 7

- ASOS Dany 6

I have not found anything either. It might be just a show thing, something the show writers put in without knowing it might have misleading symbolism. But also possible it is buried in the text somewhere using different wording and not yet in any wiki or essay. Only a well equiped quote finder can help us there.

I should clarify that I meant the word facet was definitely used by Pree in the show. The show never has access to info about deeper references and symbolism though so that was probably on its own not something we can read much into. In the books there might still be something along these lines related to warlocks but clearly not using the word "facet".

Edited December 3, 2023 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

Changed the title to hopefully get some more discussion of this. I really feel like it is an issue that needs to be untangled as best we can, but hoping for collaboration on that.

[Gilbert Green]

On 11/28/2023 at 8:49 AM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

True enough, but if you're trying to piece together a theory about the Tourmaline Brotherhood, you're going to run into similar problems. There's not a lot of content to work with, and tinfoil is almost inevitable.

Terror of tinfoil seems to be a thing on these forums.  Otherwise, someone would have considered the possibility that Xaro and Euron are one man.

[Hippocras]

Quote

Dany did not know where Faros was, but it seemed to her that Qarth was full of stone cows. The merchant princes, grown vastly rich off the trade between the seas, were divided into three jealous factions: the Ancient Guild of Spicers, the Tourmaline Brotherhood, and the Thirteen, to which Xaro belonged. Each vied with the others for dominance, and all three contended endlessly with the Pureborn. And brooding over all were the warlocks, with their blue lips and dread powers, seldom seen but much feared.

It would be easier to get a grasp of this topic with a better sense of how the factions of Qarth truly felt about warlocks and why they feared them. If they were feared and not loved, then any or every one of the factions might theoretically have been secretly relieved that Dany destroyed their temple, and any or every one of the factions might look the other way at Euron capturing Pree and company.

Xaro Xhoan Daxos was the spokesperson of the Thirteen, and the TB were rivals. His representation of their strengths and character should not be assumed to be true. The problem is that we don't actually have anyone else's opinion of the TB.

Yet we are reminded they exist rather frequently, and there must be some reason why Dany kept their crown and why XXD wanted to replace it with one from the Thirteen.

Quote

Xaro looked troubled. "And so it was, then. But now? I am less certain. It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years. Ghost grass grows in the Garden of Gehane, phantom tortoises have been seen carrying messages between the windowless houses on Warlock's Way [...] A man must wonder." He sighed. "These are strange times in Qarth. And strange times are bad for trade. It grieves me to say so, yet it might be best if you left Qarth entirely, and sooner rather than later." 

XXD associates warlock power returning with Dany's presence, and the first example he gives on why Dany should fear warlocks is Urrathon Night-Walker's glass candles. The quote makes it seem as if Urrathon IS a warlock.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Hippocras

[SaffronLady]

I think GRRM wants us to think Urrathon Night-Walker is Euron with this little prod, since both are "Shieldsmashers".

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

I think GRRM wants us to think Urrathon Night-Walker is Euron with this little prod, since both are "Shieldsmashers".

I do like the theory but it also has its problems.

Euron's exhile was only 2 or 3 years, first of all, and during that time he supposedly travelled all over the known world. And yet Urrathon NW is an established person in Qarth with a house and collected artefacts.

Urrathon's house, it seems anyway from XXD's description, is right there amid all the other warlock houses. So it suggests that he is a warlock. And yet Euron captured Pree and companions and forced three of them to eat the 4th. So Euron is not their colleague unless a whole lot of lies are going around.

These problems are not deal-breakers as there are ways to work around them. But it gets us into deep tinfoil territory because we need to assume large parts of the text are lies.

[SaffronLady]

4 hours ago, Hippocras said:

we need to assume large parts of the text are lies

Isn't it the case throughout ASOIAF though? Starting with the scene where Cat receives that letter from Lysa?

Agreed Euron's connexions need further investigation and myth-reading.

[Hippocras]

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Isn't it the case throughout ASOIAF though? Starting with the scene where Cat receives that letter from Lysa?

Agreed Euron's connexions need further investigation and myth-reading.

Indeed. So many ambiguities, oblique hints and mysteries.

I am good with taking a small wander down tinfoil lane on this one and seeing where the path goes if you are.

Let's say that Euron is indeed Urrathon. These are my thoughts:

1. It probably means that Euron had a presence in Qarth before he was exiled. He has been pirating for quite a while, and maybe for him the exile did not mean much because he already had his house in Qarth.

2. Deeply speculative, but I have long thought that Euron spoke of flying in such a similar way to Bran and Bloodraven that he must have been doing something similar. So maybe the nightshade and the trees it comes from are a kind of parallel magic to weirwood magic, and that Euron was "called" to Qarth to train quite a while ago. He has been back and forth since.

3. It is entirely possible that Euron has not done as much actual travelling as he claims. Instead, he may have explored the world via glass candle since they began burning again. This would explain how he could have a house in Qarth, and possessions there, while also apparently seeing the world.

[SaffronLady]

13 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

2. Deeply speculative, but I have long thought that Euron spoke of flying in such a similar way to Bran and Bloodraven that he must have been doing something similar. So maybe the nightshade and the trees it comes from are a kind of parallel magic to weirwood magic, and that Euron was "called" to Qarth to train quite a while ago. He has been back and forth since.

3. It is entirely possible that Euron has not done as much actual travelling as he claims. Instead, he may have explored the world via glass candle since they began burning again. This would explain how he could have a house in Qarth, and possessions there, while also apparently seeing the world.

I think these two could be more deeply connected. I know we have no idea how widespread they are, but perhaps Eurrathon could see through the eyes of the "nightshade trees" before the dragonglass candles started burning again. It would explain why he is called the "NIGHT-Walker", after all.

[Hippocras]

3 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

I think these two could be more deeply connected. I know we have no idea how widespread they are, but perhaps Eurrathon could see through the eyes of the "nightshade trees" before the dragonglass candles started burning again. It would explain why he is called the "NIGHT-Walker", after all.

True, but the visions Dany had at the HotU should give us some clues about what Shade of the Evening does, and it did not seem to take her to different places so much as different realities and different times. And very fragmentary at that. Eurrathon (I like it) seems to actually see what is happening over distance with his abilities and this is something the glass candles could apparently do.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Hippocras

[Maegor_the_Cool]

I really want Euron to be ASOIAF’s dark lord. 
 

Considering he is attacking the city with the tallest tower in the known world, and if captured he’d fly his personal sigil from the top of the Hightower. A BIG RED EYE. It would be GRRM referencing Sauron. 
 

He is so entertainingly evil, unlike Ramsay who purely disgusts me, Euron has the IT factor when it comes to ASOIAF villains. I want him to be a problem for Daenerys and Westeros before he is dealt with. It’d be so disappointed if he dies in Oldtown.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

17 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I do like the theory but it also has its problems.

Euron's exhile was only 2 or 3 years, first of all, and during that time he supposedly travelled all over the known world. And yet Urrathon NW is an established person in Qarth with a house and collected artefacts.

Urrathon's house, it seems anyway from XXD's description, is right there amid all the other warlock houses. So it suggests that he is a warlock. And yet Euron captured Pree and companions and forced three of them to eat the 4th. So Euron is not their colleague unless a whole lot of lies are going around.

These problems are not deal-breakers as there are ways to work around them. But it gets us into deep tinfoil territory because we need to assume large parts of the text are lies.

Well if Euron is glammoring as Daario he is clearly capable of being many places at once ;).

 

I do think Euron is being set up as either a red herring or as the most powerful magic user in the series that would take magic from both Ice (Bran) and Fire (Daenerys) to stop. His ambitions are unlike any other character in the series.

[SaffronLady]

9 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Shade of the Evening

You have a point, but I'm not ruling out the possibility SotE does something different from directly accessing the "night trees", like weirwood paste and weirwood itself.

[Hippocras]

13 hours ago, Maegor_the_Cool said:

I really want Euron to be ASOIAF’s dark lord. 
 

Considering he is attacking the city with the tallest tower in the known world, and if captured he’d fly his personal sigil from the top of the Hightower. A BIG RED EYE. It would be GRRM referencing Sauron. 
 

This is interesting because I do tend to agree that GRRM has worked in many LotR references and parallels in this. The big red eye on the tower is a good point.

Euron came into the story too late to be truly some great evil all on his own, but as a figurehead and gate opener for malicious forces such as the warlocks and dark magic practitioners it makes a fair bit of sense. Assuming he is either Urrathon or Urrathon's apprentice, that would mean he already has a glass candle through which he can see over great distances. Maybe more so if he is at the top of a very tall tower. But even if he does not yet have a candle, he probably will have one soon after taking the Citadel.