Is the Stark story the same as the Targaryen story?

[Jeff Claburn]

How is what happens to the Starks in the present day similar to what happened to the Targaryens 17-years before?

There are seven parallel Stark and Targaryen characters, and we are going to run through all of them:

Catelyn’s murder at the Red Wedding right after watching her child be killed brutally in front of her is what happened to Elia Martell.

Ned trying to do the right things but being naive about it, then painted after his death as the treacherous villain who instigated the conflict (In the story that everyone hears), is essentially what happened to Rhaegar.

Sansa losing her entire family and becoming the bastard among the Arryns is what happened to Aemon Targaryen / Jon Snow.

Bran losing all his siblings and his home at Winterfell and being carried over the Wall, wher he develops magical powers, before returning to be King in the North, is Dany loosing all her siblings and her home at King’s Landing/Dragonstone and being carried off across the sea, where she develops magical powers, and makes her self a foreign queen, before returning home to claim the Iron Throne as Queen.

Robb, the oldest child, being murdered, with his consciousness warging into Grey Wind at his death is what happened to Rhaenys when she was murdered by Gregor Clegane and her consciouness warged into her black cat, who became the nasty stray who is the “true queen of the Red Keep” and Arya later chases all through the castle (until she overhears Vary and Illyrio plotting).

Based on my Jaqen and Val theories, developed and supported in great length elsewhere:

Arya’s being left without her family and eventually going to the House of Black and White looking for a path to revenge is what happened to Aegon VI / Jaqen H’ghar.

Rickon losing his parents and growing up orphaned and wild in the far north, without parent or guardian, but becoming a prince to the half-wildlings on Skaagos is what happened to Val / Visenya, daughter of Rhaegar and Ashara Dayne (because Ashara Dayne was the surrogate mother for Elia so she and Rhaegar could have a second daughter), is what happened to Val losing her parents and growing up orphaned and wild, beyond the Wall, but becoming a princess to the Wildlings under Mance Rayder.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Jeff Claburn

[SeanF]

History does not repeat itself, but it rhymes.  There are plenty of parallels between the fate of the Targaryens in 283, and the fate of the Starks in the main story.

The Lannisters are the main villains in each case.

 

[Jeff Claburn]

Let me follow up with more details for those who are interested:

Gender Flipping Hides the Parallels

One fascinating thing to note is that while the father and mother match one-to-one, for all five of the children the gender is flipped from Targaryen to Stark. This makes it so much more difficult to pick up what George Martin is doing.

Three Secret Children of Rhaegar as Heads of his Dragon

Not just Jon, but fully three of the characters, I maintain, have secret Targaryen parentages: Jon, Jaqen, and Val. But isn’t that consistent with House Targaryen, where everything comes in threes!

As far as I am aware, I am the only one to suggest and aggressively argue that all three of Jon, Jaqen, and Val are Targaryens, and moreover sons of Rhaegar, with one being the Targaryen-Stark, one being the Targaryen-Martell, and one being the Targaryen-Dayne. Moreover, I think they all express Targaryeness but with the color of their mother’s house:

• Jon joins the Night’s Watch as Starks have always done, and is preoccupied with protecting the North from the Others as well as saving other Starks he learns are in grave danger (so far Arya, but then I think he will come to the aid of Sansa and Bran in the future).
• Jaqen is extremely associated with fiery imagery, including being born again amidst salt and smoke in a burning barn, and his real preoccupation—if you suppose he really thinks like Arya as I do—has been getting revenge for his House and his dead sister Rhaenys. This is the very thing that has also preoccupied Doran Martell and House Martell ever since Robert’s Rebellion.
• Finally Val is by far the least important of these characters, at least so far. We know a lot less about her. But she is a completely fierce warrior-princess who has killed a man with a dagger she stole from him. As a great fighter with blades, that puts her squarely in the Dayne family tradition.

Many More Targaryen Triples

Note that there is no attempt to dispute her that Dany is a much more important character than Val! There can be three heads of the Targaryen dragon in many different ways at different times. They just always tend to come in some version of three.

• Azor Ahai:  So the three heads of the Targaryen Dragon who are Azor Ahai, I have argued, are Jon with the Night’s Watch as his Lightbringer, Dany with the dragons as her Lightbringer, and Jaqen with Arya Stark as his Lightbringer.
• Rhaegar's Surviving Kids: Meanwhile the three heads of the Targaryen Dragon who are children of Rhaegar who survived to our present story are Jon, Jaqen, and Val.
• Rhaegar's Legitimate Heirs: Finally the the three heads of the Targaryen who were legitimate children of Rhaegar (because Rhaegar legally married their mother in a ceremony) are Rhaenys, Jaqen, and Jon.

There are many other versions of the Three Targaryens as well, including:

• Children of Rhaella Targaryen: The Queen's three children were Rhaegar, Viserys, and Dany.
• Bastards of Aerys Targaryen with Joanna Lannister: Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion. We also wholeheartedly embrace the view that the three apparent children of Tywin in the story are not really his biologically, but really the result of Aerys purposefully cucking him with Joana who was out to get her revenge against Tywin for all his whores, whom she always knew about, including Tywin's secret tunnel to Alayaya's. These are the Targaryen-Lannisters who don't know they have Targaryen blood but who do each take after the Mad King: Cersei is paranoid, sees false threats everywhere, turns allies into enemies, is increasingly obsessed with wildfire, and we fully expect to blow up part of King's Landing like Aerys wanted to. Jaime has a cutting wit combined with arrogant handsomeness which is how Aerys personality was described in his teens and twenties. Tyrion actively uses Wildfire as his best weapon to win on the Blackfyre and will increasingly enjoy burning his enemies as he gets older, we have hypothesized, eventually burning up the Vale and King's Landing, having sworn revenge against both for perceived wrongs against him. 

What about Viserys?

I should note that Robb also corresponds to Viserys, if anyone is wondering, in the sense that both are killed at about the same age, and its the active and aggressive process of trying to reclaim a throne that was already well and truly lost (albeit 300 years ago for the Starks and 15 years ago for the Targaryens, when Viserys dies)—which is inherently an extremely dangerous thing to do if you want to keep your head!—that leads to the events of their death.

Nonetheless, I think the primary Robb parallel is meant to be with Rhaenys as included in the list of seven, as it really gets to their being the oldest of the children in their House and how they are murdered so suddenly and unexpectedly. Viserys by contrast causes his own death so proximately and immediately through his action in Vas Dothrak breaking the law regarding swords and threatening Dany and unborn Rhaego in the presence of Khal Drogo. Viserys was a character who seemed destined to get himself killed one way or another by his viciousness and recklessnes combined with lack of judgement and perception, whereas Robb and Viserys were capable of leading normal lives but brought to horror by circumstances as the result of Tywin Lannister personally conspiring against House Stark and House Targaryen.

But this additional parallel should be noted because it means Viserys is not left out of the trend, and when you include him, then it becomes seven pure Starks and seven Pure Targaryens plus Jon as the Targaryen-Stark in our tale of two parallel families of Ice and Fire destroyed by their enemies, particularly the Lannisters in both cases!

Edited December 31, 2023 by Jeff Claburn

[KingAerys_II]

I believe that Azor Ahai was a Stark and the first dragonlord was Lightbringer.

The Bloodstone Emperor did blood magic experiments on his sister to create the dragonlords, the ultimate weapons to control dragons.

 

[KingAerys_II]

There is another interesting parallelism:

Sansa- Queen Rhaenys

Jon-Aegon

Arya- Visenya

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Ned Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen are not the same. Ned's actions could be described as naive and well-meaning. Rhaegar's could not. He was an utterly selfish coward who stirred a hornet's nest before hiding away for more than a year while everyone else got stung. 

[Jeff Claburn]

1 hour ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Ned Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen are not the same. Ned's actions could be described as naive and well-meaning. Rhaegar's could not. He was an utterly selfish coward who stirred a hornet's nest before hiding away for more than a year while everyone else got stung. 

History is written by the winners. And by politicians.

I put up a second post, R + A = D or V, which includes the theory (I am convinced of) that Elia and Rhaegar were simply looking for a surrogate mother to birth the third head of the dragon. Meanwhile, Robert got jealous and drunk and tried to force himself on Lyanna, so she took them up on their offer. But Tywin wanted to get the Targaryens and Littlefinger wanted to get the Starks, so one of them told a lie about how it went down. Keep in mind Cersei told us that Robert gets drunk, rapes her at night, and then denies the next morning that he did anything wrong. Over and over again. That's who he always has been. That's what Robert did to Lyanna, sealing the deal for her, who was never interested in him. Compared to that, being a surrogate mother for the princess treated in luxury is a much, much better deal.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Jeff Claburn

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 12/30/2023 at 8:32 PM, Jeff Claburn said:

How is what happens to the Starks in the present day similar to what happened to the Targaryens 17-years before?

There are seven parallel Stark and Targaryen characters, and we are going to run through all of them:

Catelyn’s murder at the Red Wedding right after watching her child be killed brutally in front of her is what happened to Elia Martell.

Ned trying to do the right things but being naive about it, then painted after his death as the treacherous villain who instigated the conflict (In the story that everyone hears), is essentially what happened to Rhaegar.

Sansa losing her entire family and becoming the bastard among the Arryns is what happened to Aemon Targaryen / Jon Snow.

Bran losing all his siblings and his home at Winterfell and being carried over the Wall, wher he develops magical powers, before returning to be King in the North, is Dany loosing all her siblings and her home at King’s Landing/Dragonstone and being carried off across the sea, where she develops magical powers, and makes her self a foreign queen, before returning home to claim the Iron Throne as Queen.

Robb, the oldest child, being murdered, with his consciousness warging into Grey Wind at his death is what happened to Rhaenys when she was murdered by Gregor Clegane and her consciouness warged into her black cat, who became the nasty stray who is the “true queen of the Red Keep” and Arya later chases all through the castle (until she overhears Vary and Illyrio plotting).

Based on my Jaqen and Val theories, developed and supported in great length elsewhere:

Arya’s being left without her family and eventually going to the House of Black and White looking for a path to revenge is what happened to Aegon VI / Jaqen H’ghar.

Rickon losing his parents and growing up orphaned and wild in the far north, without parent or guardian, but becoming a prince to the half-wildlings on Skaagos is what happened to Val / Visenya, daughter of Rhaegar and Ashara Dayne (because Ashara Dayne was the surrogate mother for Elia so she and Rhaegar could have a second daughter), is what happened to Val losing her parents and growing up orphaned and wild, beyond the Wall, but becoming a princess to the Wildlings under Mance Rayder.

You can find parallels and even make some up if you work hard enough. The plot pattern trimmed the main families to basically throw the children out on their own to make it on their own. I don’t like Bran Stark but he is one of the two primary lead characters. The other one is Daenerys Targaryen who I like a lot. Those two will affect their world more than any of the others.  Most of the patterns and parallels happen within the families. The Targaryens were involved in a multigenerational effort to conceive and birth the special child who will become Azor Ahai who in her turn would bring back their mighty dragons. It took generations and two failures in Rhaegar and Viserys before Daenerys was born on Dragonstone. She came along to claim the role of Azor Ahai and wake her dragons.  The Starks were doing the same thing but from a political angle with Rickard and southron ambitions. An act of treason it was. Rhaegar and Brandon were the elder sons being used for political advantage. Viserys, like Ned, cleaned up the mess of his older brother. 
 

Robb and Jon fit the Stark mold with their dishonorable conducts leading to their deaths at the hands of their own followers. Oath breakers and very partial leaders who lost their way because of love. Jon is not a Targaryen. His father is Mance. Arthur and Brandon are two other possible father for him. 
 

Arya has no parallel in the Targaryen. If she has any, it is with the Freys. Being the only clever Stark make her an interesting enemy for Big Walder Frey. Sansa mirrors more Arrianne Martell than any on the Targaryen side. 
 

Viserys, who inherited Westeros from King Aerys II, mirror Ned. Ned raised Jon, the baby left behind by failed siblings. Viserys raised a much younger baby sister and did it very well. 
 

 

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

You can find parallels and even make some up if you work hard enough. The plot pattern trimmed the main families to basically throw the children out on their own to make it on their own. I don’t like Bran Stark but he is one of the two primary lead characters. The other one is Daenerys Targaryen who I like a lot. Those two will affect their world more than any of the others.  Most of the patterns and parallels happen within the families. The Targaryens were involved in a multigenerational effort to conceive and birth the special child who will become Azor Ahai who in her turn would bring back their mighty dragons. It took generations and two failures in Rhaegar and Viserys before Daenerys was born on Dragonstone. She came along to claim the role of Azor Ahai and wake her dragons.  The Starks were doing the same thing but from a political angle with Rickard and southron ambitions. An act of treason it was. Rhaegar and Brandon were the elder sons being used for political advantage. Viserys, like Ned, cleaned up the mess of his older brother. 
 

Robb and Jon fit the Stark mold with their dishonorable conducts leading to their deaths at the hands of their own followers. Oath breakers and very partial leaders who lost their way because of love. Jon is not a Targaryen. His father is Mance. Arthur and Brandon are two other possible father for him. 
 

Arya has no parallel in the Targaryen. If she has any, it is with the Freys. Being the only clever Stark make her an interesting enemy for Big Walder Frey. Sansa mirrors more Arrianne Martell than any on the Targaryen side. 
 

Viserys, who inherited Westeros from King Aerys II, mirror Ned. Ned raised Jon, the baby left behind by failed siblings. Viserys raised a much younger baby sister and did it very well. 

Biased fanboy/girl denialism at its finest, since this tries to look unbiased.

Of especial opposition, Viserys' input to Dany would be what makes her take the role of Azor Ahai and destroy the known world. Or she would overcome it and not become AA, thus saving the world from herself.

[StarkTullies]

12 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Viserys raised a much younger baby sister and did it very well.

A better DanyFanatacism argument would be "Dany is so amazing that she grew up to be the greatest person ever despite being raised by such a horrible person."  Viserys was a terrible person, a terrible brother, and he did a terrible job at raising Dany.  Keep in mind that THIS is the man you are praising:

Quote

I'd let his whole khalasar f*** you if need be, sweet sister, all forty thousand men, and their horses too if that was what it took to get my army.  - "King" Viserys III