Random Musings on Targaryen Descent

[SaffronLady]

Mainly thanks to @Hippocras' efforts, I have begun pondering blood transmissions from Targs to basically everybody else. Velaryons, Hightowers, Penroses, Martells, Dondarrions, Daynes, even the Harrenhal-Stark line etc.

But Hippo is doing the whole exercise from a very dynastic perspective, which is treating the Targs too mundane. Isn't the whole point of the Targs basically "their blood really is special to the point of demi-divine born royalty"? That they are in fact tying together by blood all the players that would matter against the Others, wights and the Fimbulvetr? (Note: all the players that would matter isn't all the major players, and especially not all the players. I won't be surprised if a House unconnected to the Targs by blood shows up for the final reveal-showdown, be it in ADOS or in "leaked GRRM notes to the publisher".)

Most heirs to Targ blood admittedly follow in the Targs' own footsteps of well, being just another Westerosi House (a very loose generalizing), but instead of working out every link in the chain, it may be more accessible to look whose plotlines seem to lead to a role to play under "Big Fire" (which is of course, Dany and her dragons) and backtrack their ancestry - including Jon Snow, Bran Stark and Arianne Martell. Bloodraven, being a 100+ yr old artifact, does make the entire issue more complicated.

[Alester Florent]

Aside from the point you raise about the Targs' being "special" and getting hung up on their descent is kind of missing the point - which I think is valid - I felt there seemed to be creep in the previous thread towards assuming that since there were a handful of Targs unaccounted for (or even potential Targs unaccounted for) we should be looking for proof that houses are not descended from the Targs rather than vice versa.

e.g. well Daena could have had more children and it seems reasonable that they'd have had good marriages and then one of them could have married x and then they'd have married a Lannister and before you know it we've constructed a whole genealogy based on something which there is no actual textual evidence for, only the absence of a confirmed negative.

It's possible that some has crept in through some junior line of a junior line that is otherwise unaccounted for on the family trees, but why would we assume that? And what does it actually matter if it has? If Jon Snow ends up being special and saving the world through magic blood or whatever, it's not going to be because his great-great-grandfather on his mother's side was married to the daughter of one of Aegon IV's lesser-known bastards (see footnote to the appendix to etc.) or whatever. Can you even imagine the reveal for that in the novels? "Lame" would cover it, I think.

Where Targaryen ancestry is relevant, I think we will either know about it already or it'll be a major reveal (i.e. someone's parent is not who they think; they're a well-established recent Targaryen), rather than anything to do with distant genealogy.

Edited January 3 by Alester Florent

[Lord Varys]

Historically, I think we can expect that the children of Baela and Rhaena will end up to be the ancestors of some or all of the brides of the sons of Daeron II. But that should be all. That is clearly not intended to be a build-up for some prominent houses being (very distant) Targaryen cousins. If that had been intended then we would have gotten direct marriages between certain prominent houses and the Targaryens. In that sense it is very noteworthy that there are no direct matches between the Targaryens and the Starks, Tullys, Lannisters, or Tyrells ... while the almost extinct Arryns got some such.

What is also rather interesting is the deliberate decision by George to not include any Targaryen-Plumms as brides in the Lannister family tree. It is effectively confirmed that Tywin and his children are not descended from Viserys Plumm. If George wanted them to be Targaryen cousins to some degree he would have made it much easier, especially since a direct match between those houses wouldn't have been a surprise. Ditto with the Starks.

If there are loose ends which end up married into other houses we might get some more Targaryen or Targaryen-descended brides for House Baratheon as it seems that the blood ties between those two houses were supposed to be stronger than just the alleged Targaryen bastard Orys, a Targaryen king's widow from House Velaryon marrying a Lord of Storm's End, and eventually the Rhaelle-Ormund match. Ditto with giving the Arryns at least some drop of Targaryen blood so that the discussion among the rebels who should be king after Aerys II makes at least some sense in retrospect.

It would be nice to know what happened with Elaena's Penrose children, but there the chance is pretty good that some ended up with the Baratheons.

Plot-wise the blood of the dragon is not completely irrelevant, I think, and quite well-spread. Not just because of Aegon the Unworthy's many children but also because of Robert and other Baratheons spreading it in 300 years and the Targaryen-Martells spreading it through since the second Daenerys gave Maron Martell a number of children. Oberyn Martell alone did a lot to spread it, and his daughters will continue to do it if they have children of their own one day.

We see that reflected, I think, in Teora Toland having what could qualify as 'prophetic dragon dreams', a talent she likely inherited from a Targaryen-Martell (great-)grandparent. In Dorne the degree of kinship among the noble families would be even more obscure than in the other regions, as not only a younger sister of Doran's mother could marry into the house without causing trouble with the family name but also a younger brother. The Toland name would prevail regardless if the consort of a Lord/Lady of Ghost Hill was a male or a female Targaryen-Martell.

What is clearly going to have some plot relevance is the whole blood tie thing between the Targaryens and the Tarths. If Brienne does have a Targaryen grandparent or great-grandparent that is going to be a relatively big thing.

[KingMaekarWasHere]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

What is clearly going to have some plot relevance is the whole blood tie thing between the Targaryens and the Tarths. If Brienne does have a Targaryen grandparent or great-grandparent that is going to be a relatively big thing.

I agree whole-heartedly! But I would add, that any bloodline descending from Maekar or his son Egg is VERY relevant to the future of the story. Maekar's two daughters are mysteriously unaccounted for, but some have speculated that they are descendants that died at Summerhall. If that is true, then maybe Daeron the Drunken's daughter Vaella is where we find the mixing with House Tarth? 

[Hippocras]

@SaffronLady

I don't think my thinking is actually about dynasties at all.

The CHARACTERS think dynastically. But dynasties are patriarchy. This is precisely why the characters are messing it up so badly.

I think the "special" and magic part requires reintegration of the female line, after all of those marriages where only a Targaryen father was seen as central.

The female line is why it is important to try to decipher where else the dragon blood wandered. But I do not think it is everywhere, still. I just think the female line dragon blood made brief and sometimes aborted stops hidden under various family names but that large numbers of these descendants (particularly the male ones) died in all of the wars, childbirth, illness, even murder.

 

I was tempted to consider the magic part to be matrilineal. But there is no sign (yet) of any Targ descent at all for Alicent Hightower, and her children all rode dragons. It is confusing, but I really genuinely do not believe that the patriarchy and the magic have the same functioning. Rhaenys and her Velaryon children all rode dragons and her granddaughter even hatched one of the last of them.

I think Beric Dondarrion being able to light a sword on fire with his blood does indicate he had some magic in his blood. The case he had a female line Targ ancestor seems quite solid. For most other living characters we need to wait and see.

Edited January 4 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

14 hours ago, KingMaekarWasHere said:

I agree whole-heartedly! But I would add, that any bloodline descending from Maekar or his son Egg is VERY relevant to the future of the story. Maekar's two daughters are mysteriously unaccounted for, but some have speculated that they are descendants that died at Summerhall. If that is true, then maybe Daeron the Drunken's daughter Vaella is where we find the mixing with House Tarth? 

House Tarth, being in the Stormlands, could easily have made a Penrose match. They also have more religiously based Andal house connections with the Vale and Oldtown, suggesting a match possibly with Rhaena's line.

I think farther back, it is possible they might descend from Aegon the uncrowned and Larissa Velaryon, Rhaena's first favourite who was hastily married off very young to a Tarth 

I somehow doubt Tarths descend from Aegon's sisters though. But who knows.

Edited January 4 by Hippocras

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, KingMaekarWasHere said:

I agree whole-heartedly! But I would add, that any bloodline descending from Maekar or his son Egg is VERY relevant to the future of the story. Maekar's two daughters are mysteriously unaccounted for, but some have speculated that they are descendants that died at Summerhall. If that is true, then maybe Daeron the Drunken's daughter Vaella is where we find the mixing with House Tarth? 

I think the best take on things there is that Brienne's father, Lord Selwyn Tarth, is the son of the daughter of Dunk and Egg's sister Daella. After all, from AFfC we got the pretty big hint that Brienne is descended from Dunk, while TWoIaF indicated that there is also a Targaryen link. It would be a very big coincidence if the Dunk link and the Targaryen link weren't effectively the same.

Daella is my best guess there as she is Egg's older sister, making her closer in age to Dunk, and she is the one he is betrothed to, which would make it fun irony if she fell for Dunk while Egg kind of dumped her for Betha Blackwood.

The idea would then be that Dunk and Daella marry around the same time as Egg and Betha (some time after the Third Blackfyre Rebellion), live together for some time until Daella dies - perhaps in childbirth - during the later reign of Maekar, causing Dunk to eventually join the KG of King Aegon V. Chances are very low that Dunk would ever join Maekar's KG as that would result in him having to protect Aerion Brightflame and/or eventually serve under a King Daeron III or even a King Aerion (while Dunk didn't exactly hate Daeron the Drunk, he is no fan of that guy and would most likely not want to waste his life protecting such a king). Thus I think Dunk can either join the KG while Rhaegel, Aelor, and Aelora are yet the heirs of Aerys I, but not after Maekar is named Heir Apparent. Only after Aerion died in 232 AC would that prospect look interesting to him again, but most likely only after Egg became king.

Vaella the Simple could certainly also fit into things there, but that would then be an independent link. But both she and Aerion's son Maegor might have died unmarried and childless.

Dunk's younger sister Rhae should have children, though, as Maester Aemon already remembered that both his sister had children of their own.

30 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

House Tarth, being in the Stormlands, could easily have made a Penrose match. They also have more religiously based Andal house connections with the Vale and Oldtown, suggesting a match possibly with Rhaena's line.

I think farther back, it is possible they might descend from Aegon the uncrowned and Larissa Velaryon, Rhaena's first favourite who was hastily married off very young to a Tarth 

I somehow doubt Tarths descend from Aegon's sisters though. But who knows.

It seems that this thing is a more recent link and a more direct link than some matches involving the children of the half-sisters of Aegon III. Doesn't mean one of the Penrose girls couldn't also have ended up with the Tarths, but that wouldn't be the link Yandel mentioned in TWoIaF.

[Hippocras]

@Lord Varys

A direct match between a princess and Dunk seems far-fetched. He didn't have the status so it would be Duncan the Small all over again. Also, I am not sure how their children figure in to the Tarth family if they were directly matched? Neither one was a Tarth...

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I think the best take on things there is that Brienne's father, Lord Selwyn Tarth, is the son of the daughter of Dunk and Egg's sister Daella. After all, from AFfC we got the pretty big hint that Brienne is descended from Dunk, while TWoIaF indicated that there is also a Targaryen link. It would be a very big coincidence if the Dunk link and the Targaryen link weren't effectively the same.

naw, it's gotta be a little more salaciously than that, don't you think? I'm guessing that an already pregnant with Dunk's baby Targ was married quickly off to Tarth, but (for reasons which the author will provide) the Tarth's were happy to slip the bastard into their family tree and carry on as though he were a legit Tarth. I just get the feeling that Dunk the Lunk is going to turn out to be quite the ladies' man.

[Hippocras]

38 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

naw, it's gotta be a little more salaciously than that, don't you think? I'm guessing that an already pregnant with Dunk's baby Targ was married quickly off to Tarth, but (for reasons which the author will provide) the Tarth's were happy to slip the bastard into their family tree and carry on as though he were a legit Tarth. I just get the feeling that Dunk the Lunk is going to turn out to be quite the ladies' man.

I am quite interested in any descendants of Jeyne and Jon Waters as well as Bloodraven's sisters. I wonder if, being likely found in more modest Houses, that is the direction we should be looking? After all, if Dunk had children mothered by a princess that would be scandal, but children with mothers from these lines would be more likely legitimate ones.

 

I admit the theory of a princess married off to a minor Tarth to conceal a bastard has some appeal for me, but mostly because it would help support my OTHER theory about Aegon the Uncrowned and Larissa. GRRM does like to do these sneaky hints by reoccurrence.

Edited January 4 by Hippocras

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

@Lord Varys

A direct match between a princess and Dunk seems far-fetched. He didn't have the status so it would be Duncan the Small all over again. Also, I am not sure how their children figure in to the Tarth family if they were directly matched? Neither one was a Tarth...

Nah, some princess marrying a knight (who could easily be a lord by that time, being granted lands and a castle as reward for his service during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion, say) isn't the same. Duncan the Small was a betrothed Prince of Dragonstone, the Heir Apparent, when he ran away with some peasant girl. Daella Targaryen is a girl and the fourth child of a prince who will be spurned by her betrothed. Her children have little to no chance to succeed to the throne ... and her marrying Dunk might very well involve her giving up her claim to the throne.

Weirdo marriages for princesses and even dowager queens are well-attested - Androw Farman, some of the suggestions for Daella and Saera, an aging Lord Manderly, Alyn Velaryon (a baseborn bastard), Corwyn Corbray & Garmund Hightower, Ossifer Plumm & Michael Manwoody, etc.

It is right that this match wouldn't be direct ... but in light of the fact that Dunk doesn't have a family name his children might very well go by the name of their mother, especially if she got a name. But it would be still much more direct than some more distant match. Any child of Daella's or Rhae's would still be the nephew of a king once Aegon V took the throne.

1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

naw, it's gotta be a little more salaciously than that, don't you think? I'm guessing that an already pregnant with Dunk's baby Targ was married quickly off to Tarth, but (for reasons which the author will provide) the Tarth's were happy to slip the bastard into their family tree and carry on as though he were a legit Tarth. I just get the feeling that Dunk the Lunk is going to turn out to be quite the ladies' man.

I don't see Dunk pulling off something like that with a sister of Egg and surviving it (with his honor intact). Especially not as a KG but also not as Egg's (and Maekar's) friend. The Targaryens are not likely to forgive a transgression like this. If something happened between Daella (or Rhae) and Dunk, he would have to marry her. And he would also not be a coward to keep something like that a secret.

Also, Dunk isn't really a ladies' man. So far there is neither a proper romance happening nor any sex. And I'm pretty sure that Dunk is not the type to sleep with a married woman or a woman betrothed to somebody else who would like to marry her betrothed. If she and Dunk fell for each other they would not act on their feelings while Daella was yet betrothed to Egg ... or only if Dunk already knew that Egg would never marry Daella.

What we know about Dunk also indicates that he doesn't want the KG or a life in celibacy in some other order ... but fame and station and a wife and, presumably, children. So the chances that ends up marrying before he joins the KG are actually pretty good. That he would join the KG makes only sense after his best friend and former squire ascends the throne and he and his family are in dire need of help and protection. (Unless Dunk, for some reason, grows very close to Aerys I, Bloodraven, or Rhaegel and his children before their deaths. But that's not all that likely. And while Dunk might become a kind of friend to Maekar, joining his KG would mean to protect and - eventually, perhaps - serve a King Daeron III or Aerion. That is not a burden the guy would take on voluntarily.)

There is also Aerion to consider. He seems to have wanted a sister to marry, so why didn't Aerion claim Daella after Egg fell for and eventually married Betha? Daella is Egg's elder sister, closer in age to Aerion than Rhae, and chances are low that Aerion ended up with Daenora before his sisters married as by TMK she doesn't even seem to have been born.

My guess is that Dunk might end up marrying Daella in part to protect her from Aerion.

Also, if something like that is going to happen we also have to consider Daella. Dunk isn't the type to dream about a royal wife, but since Daella is Egg's betrothed and sister, she is going to meet him eventually and they might spend a lot of time together at Summerhall and/or in KL. If she were determined to have him, he would not resist forever, especially if realized he loved her, too.

But to be sure - it is easily imaginable that this thing is going to be a big scandal, leading to Dunk and Daella to fall into disfavor and to settle somewhere in the countryside or even in Essos. With there only being a reconciliation in the wake of Daella's death. Even Dunk & Egg might not be close friends throughout their lives. There could be longer periods of estrangement between the two. For instance, I don't even think that Dunk would be keen to live at court during Maekar's reign as we know that Maekar called all his four sons to court. Even if Dunk wasn't a KG at that time, as a household knight/sworn sword/retainer of King Maekar he would still be physically close to Aerion Brightflame all the time. That would mean constant trouble. Of course, there is a small chance that they overcome their issues ... but that is not very likely.

[SeanF]

On 1/3/2024 at 1:47 PM, SaffronLady said:

Mainly thanks to @Hippocras' efforts, I have begun pondering blood transmissions from Targs to basically everybody else. Velaryons, Hightowers, Penroses, Martells, Dondarrions, Daynes, even the Harrenhal-Stark line etc.

But Hippo is doing the whole exercise from a very dynastic perspective, which is treating the Targs too mundane. Isn't the whole point of the Targs basically "their blood really is special to the point of demi-divine born royalty"? That they are in fact tying together by blood all the players that would matter against the Others, wights and the Fimbulvetr? (Note: all the players that would matter isn't all the major players, and especially not all the players. I won't be surprised if a House unconnected to the Targs by blood shows up for the final reveal-showdown, be it in ADOS or in "leaked GRRM notes to the publisher".)

Most heirs to Targ blood admittedly follow in the Targs' own footsteps of well, being just another Westerosi House (a very loose generalizing), but instead of working out every link in the chain, it may be more accessible to look whose plotlines seem to lead to a role to play under "Big Fire" (which is of course, Dany and her dragons) and backtrack their ancestry - including Jon Snow, Bran Stark and Arianne Martell. Bloodraven, being a 100+ yr old artifact, does make the entire issue more complicated.

It’s not so much semi-divine blood, as magical (the same is true of the Starks).

It’s a matter of fact in this world that some Targaryens and Starks inherit extremely rare magical attributes.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't see Dunk pulling off something like that with a sister of Egg and surviving it (with his honor intact). Especially not as a KG but also not as Egg's (and Maekar's) friend. The Targaryens are not likely to forgive a transgression like this. If something happened between Daella (or Rhae) and Dunk, he would have to marry her. And he would also not be a coward to keep something like that a secret.

You have a better handle on the family tree than I do, but I wasn't supposing it would have been one of Egg's sisters because that would just be too messy for reasons you suggest. If they would be the only available candidates, then yeah, that wouldn't work. It's just the manner of the shield that Brienne found that makes me think that this was a relation that they didn't want advertised, but weren't necessarily wanting to erase from history either.

You don't see Dunk as a ladies man? I'm sure he'll grow into it. Webber was quite taken with him. There's giant spawn in Tarth, giant spawn at Winterfell...  We'll see.

[Lord Varys]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:29 PM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

You have a better handle on the family tree than I do, but I wasn't supposing it would have been one of Egg's sisters because that would just be too messy for reasons you suggest. If they would be the only available candidates, then yeah, that wouldn't work. It's just the manner of the shield that Brienne found that makes me think that this was a relation that they didn't want advertised, but weren't necessarily wanting to erase from history either.

Brienne is seems to be ignorant about that part of her family's history ... but that does not only extend to Dunk but also her Targaryen ancestry. Nobody seems to be aware of that - or if they are, they don't care much.

It could easily be explained by Lord Selwyn's mother (Dunk's and Daella's daughter, in my scenario) being present and burning at Summerhall with her father. It is already established that those being there rarely talked about what happened there. And Selwyn could have been there, too, but being one of the survivors.

In such a scenario he might not have talked about it with his daughter ... and the entire topic could have been taboo at Evenfall Hall.

Ditto, actually, with the Lannisters if Tywin was there with Aerys and Rhaella and Steffon. He might have never spoken about it with his children, too, explaining why Jaime also seems to be ignorant about Brienne's ancestry.

Regarding the shield and arms - if Dunk is ever granted a lordship, his arms might actually change. In fact, the fact that the village of Pennytree is a royal fief as per ADwD could be the case because Aerys I or Maekar grant the place to Dunk as a holding, making him the effective heir and successor of Ser Arlan of Pennytree. It would then revoke to the Crown when Dunk - as the Knight or Lord of Pennytree joins the KG in the absence of a male heir. If that were to happen after his daughter has already married Lord Tarth she might no longer be eligible to inherit a seat of her own, anyway.

On 1/4/2024 at 10:29 PM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

You don't see Dunk as a ladies man? I'm sure he'll grow into it. Webber was quite taken with him. There's giant spawn in Tarth, giant spawn at Winterfell...  We'll see.

Oh, I'm sure (and hope) Dunk will have some real romances and affairs with unmarried (commoner) women (like Old or rather Young Nan, say) before he grows older. But I don't think he will ever mess around with royal princesses or highborn ladies. And he might also not be all that keen to dishonor commoner women.

I mean, we could also speculate if and which son of Rohanne Webber born to Gerold Lannister is going to turn out Dunk's son ... but I doubt that he would dare to pull off something like this. If either Tytos or Jason were Dunk's, then quite a few of the present Lannisters would be Dunk's descendants. And that would be very odd and feels quite weird.

Edited January 6 by Lord Varys

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, we could also speculate if and which son of Rohanne Webber born to Gerold Lannister is going to turn out Dunk's son ... but I doubt that he would dare to pull off something like this. If either Tytos or Jason were Dunk's, then quite a few of the present Lannisters would be Dunk's descendants. And that would be very odd and feels quite weird.

Hm, well we don't have much Cleggane family history... maybe it was a daughter... No, I don't think Dunk went back to visit Rohanne.

I like your idea of a Summerhall connection and consequent family taboo. I think for one reason or another some sort of contrived silence was in play because otherwise Brienne would know all about it.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Hm, well we don't have much Cleggane family history... maybe it was a daughter... No, I don't think Dunk went back to visit Rohanne.

Pretty sure the disappearance of Lady Rohanne in 230 AC, three years before Egg took the throne, will be covered in a later Dunk & Egg novella. And they might see each other earlier, too. Keep in mind that Lord Gerold Lannister's support is crucial for Egg to win the throne at the Great Council in 233 AC. It seems quite likely that Dunk & Egg befriend Lord Gerold through Rohanne, and that friendship lasts well into Egg's reign. Without it, Tywin might not have been taken in as a ward by Aegon V, which allowed him to befriend young Aerys.

3 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I like your idea of a Summerhall connection and consequent family taboo. I think for one reason or another some sort of contrived silence was in play because otherwise Brienne would know all about it.

To be sure, it is a big problem that people don't seem to know or care about any Targaryen cousins with claims to the throne. Nobody seems to know or care who could sit the throne if Tommen/Myrcella and Stannis/Shireen were to die. That is pretty odd as everybody in the Vale knows who comes next after Lord Robert Arryn - Harrold Hardyng, 'the Heir'.

After the death of both Renly and Joffrey such people should have come to the fore. Tywin would have either called them to court or pushed them away to keep their ambitions in check. They would be considered as matches by other ambitious families at court - by the Tyrells, especially - and many people would wonder if they could or would make good kings or queens.

If Brienne and Lord Selwyn before her would be considered as such claimants they would be talked about and treated quite differently.

Both the Lannisters/Tyrells and Stannis' people would not want to see the Martells successfully pushing their claims for the Iron Throne ... and in the absence of any other claimants they might actually have the best shot. They are high nobility of Targaryen descent, after all. And the Baratheon claim goes through Rhaelle-Ormund, so technically if that branch were to die out completely, the next Targaryen cousin down the branch would be in line to the throne. That would mean descendants of Egg's siblings, brothers and sisters, followed directly by the Targaryen-Martells who would come next as descendants of Daeron II's only sibling.

Even if the guys in charge wanted to change things, to not take such a route, traditional thinking would cause a lot of people at court to think in such lines, to look for the next king or queen among such people, so they would definitely be a factor.

[SaffronLady]

On 1/4/2024 at 2:27 PM, Hippocras said:

@SaffronLady

I don't think my thinking is actually about dynasties at all.

Allow me to reiterate. I do recognize you stress bloodline over dynasty. I mean the methodology you employ in tracking the loose ends is dynasty-oriented, tracking and guessing marriages of the loose ends in question. Which is why instead of a top-down search, I propose a bottom-up search. Backtracking from the descendants in 300 instead of trying to account for every loose end - of which some, I am afraid, would unfortunately die out without weaving back into the main line.

[SaffronLady]

19 hours ago, SeanF said:

It’s a matter of fact in this world that some Targaryens and Starks inherit extremely rare magical attributes.

You know, speaking of them, I really want a Garth descendant to be a great magic player, but the character gacha pool seems to be limited to Sam Tarly and Bran Stark. Sad.

[Hippocras]

8 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Allow me to reiterate. I do recognize you stress bloodline over dynasty. I mean the methodology you employ in tracking the loose ends is dynasty-oriented, tracking and guessing marriages of the loose ends in question. Which is why instead of a top-down search, I propose a bottom-up search. Backtracking from the descendants in 300 instead of trying to account for every loose end - of which some, I am afraid, would unfortunately die out without weaving back into the main line.

Oh I agree. It needs to be worked at from both ends.

GRRM is certainly working hard to conceal descendants in 300 though so it is quite some work.

I personally have a sense that the passing over of valid, adult female heir is something history is trying to correct btw. I think Rhaenys's line and that of Aegon III's daughters is coming back somehow into this.

 

Edited January 5 by Hippocras

[SaffronLady]

1 minute ago, Hippocras said:

Oh I agree. It needs to be worked at from both ends

It is my personal belief sometimes you go too deep down rabbit holes of disappearing Targaryen bloodlines. It would help if you approach the issue bottom-top more often.

Say there is a descendant of Rhaena HT who married into House Crane. What role does House Crane play in the story of 300AC? Negligible. Thus tracking this line down proves ultimately unrewarding.