Match the Maidens - 133 AC

[Landis]

Extremely common for women to name children born out of wedlock in reference to the child's father as well, precisely because they know the kid won't be allowed to bear their father's family name. This could also be done to imply a connection that doesn't exist of course, but many of the examples GRRM provides follow a similar pattern. 

You also have Elenda Caron spiting Borros Baratheon after his death by naming his posthumous son after her father Royce, instead of after Aegon II as Borros had intended, which over all includes a number of conflicting ways Westerosi name their children: repeating familial names, naming in honour of immediate family, naming in honour of patrons. It isn't always about a blood connection, though in Borros' case, there was the expectation that one of his daughters would be having Targaryen children through marriage; perhaps inadvertently, Elenda Caron's decision to name her son in the tradition of her own house ends up highlighting the breakdown of the Baratheon-Targaryen marriage pact for her daughters, which would otherwise have been represented by the reciprocal trading of name ownership: it would have been exceedingly arrogant and presumptuous for Borros (even with his distant Targaryen connections) to name his heir Aegon if the families were not bound by blood. 

It's not an exact science (shout out to the Freys!), but as Hippocras has quite correctly stated on multiple occasions, it can be a cue to pay closer attention to particular individuals and try to flesh out the context with what details can be identified, with attention to heritability of female given names being especially encouraged when you are looking at patriarchal societies where women are otherwise excluded from the historical record because their roles and duties are not considered significant enough to require notation. Frequently, the only avenue ambitious or self-determinate women in such circumstances have to write their existence and identities into the record is through the names of the children they bear to notable men, with naming rights for female children (and sometimes later sons) being the most likely to bear the mother's signature, as they are the least likely to inherit the father's titles and holdings (i.e., they are the least important), and will never (or rarely) be allowed to inherit the titles/holdings of the maternal line. It is frequently a very conscious and deliberate thing, actually, and a practice that GRRM would be personally familiar with in more recent iterations, as it remained a pretty common practice for Baby Boomers and older Gen X when naming their Millennial kids in North America, while younger Gen X and Millennials seem to be breaking those patterns with heavy influence of names drawn from popular culture due to the influences of social liberalism. 

Edited January 16 by Landis

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Also the use of the names Royce and Ambrose as first names is very likely to be headed in this direction.

Royce Baratheon was named after his maternal grandfather Royce Caron and has no relation to House Royce.

I'll give you that Royce Coldwater is actually a vassal of the Royces, so there is a connection here. As far as the other Royces (Blackwood, 2 Bolton and Caron) there is nothing.

If I were to associate Ambrose Butterwell with a House from the Reach, I would chose the Peakes or Costaynes any day over House Ambrose.

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

It is about association IMO. Ellyn Baratheon was one of the Four Storms. GRRM gave them an interesting story and part of that story was ambition, rebelliousness, and a drop of royal blood to go with it, which underpinned a certain arrogance and entitlement. Because of this, when we see the name Ellyn elsewhere in the series, we have those traits associated with the name more or less subconsciously. So we come to Ellyn Reyne, who provoked a rebellion in the Westerlands and had all of the above character traits.

Yes exactly, GRRM gave an interesting story to the Four Storms but not to Ellyn herself. If anything Ellyn is actually the most boring one out of the four. She just made a comment about her breasts to a child one time. That's litterally the only thing we know about her on her own and not as part of the group.

At least we have some info to differentiate her sisters:

• Cassandra was the oldest and the ambitious one but had to give her ambitions up at the end and lived a quiet life away from court and politic.
• Maris was the second born and the cleveress. She came up with a zing on the fly against Aemond and ended up a silent sister.
• Floris was the prettiest, a sweet and frivolous girl. She got hitched like Cassandra but unlike her, she did not got a happy ending.

Also two elements are not enough, you need more if you want your readers to pick up on a pattern. I'm sorry but linking consciously or subconsciously Ellyn Baratheon and Ellyn Reyne together does not work.

Edited January 16 by Thomaerys Velaryon

[Landis]

5 hours ago, Hippocras said:

It is about association IMO. Ellyn Baratheon was one of the Four Storms. GRRM gave them an interesting story and part of that story was ambition, rebelliousness, and a drop of royal blood to go with it, which underpinned a certain arrogance and entitlement. Because of this, when we see the name Ellyn elsewhere in the series, we have those traits associated with the name more or less subconsciously. So we come to Ellyn Reyne, who provoked a rebellion in the Westerlands and had all of the above character traits.

Will we ever get a family tree for the Reynes and/or Baratheons that fully details a family connection? I would say probably not. That would just be data, not storytelling. All we really need are the slightest hints via similarities of events, similarities of personality, as well as historical reasons for these families to be connected.

FYI, Ellyn is actually (in my opinion) a name that was selected by her mother, Elenda Caron, in honour of Ellyn Caron, who was the head of House Caron during Aenys I's reign and participated in Marcher battles against the Vulture King. While it is possible that Ellyn Baratheon passed the name on in her own line as well, I would say it is far more likely that this name becomes popular within the Caron clan specifically, and gets given to Ellyn Reyne by a Caron mother (her exploits are far more alike to Ellyn Caron than what we know of Ellyn Baratheon thus far anyway). A Caron-Reyne match would be a good one as well, with Caron calling itself the oldest of all the marcher lords, and both being established First Men houses. 

That said, it would just as easily be the influence of a Beesbury mother, as the first Ellyn, Ellyn Ever Sweet, a mythical daughter of Garth Greenhand, is touted as the founder of House Beesbury (which itself might be seen as having connections to the Carons, based on sigil colours *insert joke about the birds and the bees here*). House Caron seems the most likely source to me for Ellyn Reyne specifically though, given that the notable Ellyn is much more recent. I think we would want to wait until we learn more about Ellyn Baratheon and her deeds (and whether they are considered worthy of commemoration by later members of House Baratheon or whoever she marries into--if girly turns out like Cassandra, I don't see her descendants wanting to draw attention to her as an ancestor).

Editing because I've thought a bit more about the potential Beesbury connection for Ellyn Reyne... House Beesbury is probably pissed with the Lannisters after the Dance because of the murder of Lyman and the Lannisters taking over his office on the Small Council as a result. A marriage alliance with House Reyne would make sense in that context. The pettiness of Ellyn Reyne naming all her kids after Lannisters out of spite is something that might be repeated more recently in the form of Beony Beesbury, who is married off to Raymund Frey (who killed Catelyn Stark). Beony and Raymund name their first kid after Robert Baratheon (ironically also the name of Ellyn's father, so the head of House Reyne who theoretically married a Beesbury), and their second daughter is named after Cersei (Freys have a habit of lickspittlery in this regard), but their two most recent kids, both seemingly born after the alliance with the Lannisters, are named for Tywin and Jaime as well. This would of course be a continuation of the ways Freys pick names, but there is a bit of petty poetic justice if the Beesburys still have this longstanding grudge against the Lannisters that is exacerbated by being pissed over the elimination of Ellyn and House Reyne. You can imagine Beony sitting there smugly as she thinks of the Lannisters learning that there are Freys named in their dubious honour, just as Ellyn Reyne did. 

Edited January 16 by Landis

[Hippocras]

12 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Royce Baratheon was named after his maternal grandfather Royce Caron and has no relation to House Royce.

Please don’t ignore the multi-generation factor. It is exactly what I am trying to point out. Of course Royce Baratheon was named after his maternal ancestor.

Royce CARON was very likely named as such because he descended from an unusually famous or prestigious Royce by the maternal line himself. So as his Royce mother or grandmother could not pass on her family name the usual way, it was adapted into a first name to let everyone know about the boy’s proud maternal connection. Exactly the same reason that Royce Baratheon’s Caron mother passed on the name.

This is real life history and how it actually worked. The Name Elliott (choose how many l’s or t’s) is an adapted family name. Many other examples.

Proof Royce Caron descended from a female Royce? Well we are unlikely to get a Caron family tree, so the name is exactly the kind of tool GRRM would use to indicate connection IN PLACE OF a complete and detailed family tree for Houses Royce and Caron. However Caron is a very old House, founded in the Age of Heroes. It certainly is a house with a parallel and compatible history to that of House Royce, and the Royces were Kings who resisted the Andal invasions, making an alliance with them something a proud non-Andal family might want to honour by using the name as a first name.

Furthermore, the Carons won honours and favours from King Aenys, and House Royce enjoyed considerable influence at that time as well. A match between the families during Aenys’s reign is not unlikely.

 

12 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I'll give you that Royce Coldwater is actually a vassal of the Royces, so there is a connection here. As far as the other Royces (Blackwood, 2 Bolton and Caron) there is nothing.

Again, if you were GRRM would you really want to create complete and detailed family trees for every single family for no reason except that certain readers require proof? Or would you instead hint at family connections by using tools such as historical reasons families are linked, and adapted first names?

Of course Royce Blackwood’s name can indicate a family connection. Ditto for the Boltons. House Blackwood was frequently allied with House Durrandon in opposition to both Andals and House Hoare rulers of the Trident and Carons were sworn to the Storm Kings. House Bolton would have allied with Royces in conflicts with the Starks.

 

12 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

If I were to associate Ambrose Butterwell with a House from the Reach, I would chose the Peakes or Costaynes any day over House Ambrose.

Marq Ambrose was one of Peake’s allies and one of the Caltrops. He died in the Dance, but probably had an heir at the time he died.

Ambrose Butterwell was born in 161-2. Myrielle Peake was born in 119, while her brother was born in 114. That is 2-3 generations in between. So say Myrielle married Marq Ambrose’s son. They had a daughter or granddaughter born 133-148, who was the mother of Ambrose Butterwell. Or, Myrielle’s brother Titus managed to have a son at a young age, before he died in the Dance. That son then had a daughter with a woman from House Ambrose who was born in or before 148, and she was the mother of Ambrose Butterwell. 

So I agree actually that is is about an alliance with house Peake, but more indirectly expressed. More secretive.

Edited January 17 by Hippocras

[The hairy bear]

17 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Yes. Elaena's children. Jocelyn, Laena. Clearly meant to indicate House Penrose at that point in time descended from the line of Rhaenys, queen who never was.

OK, fair enough. That's a reasonable hypothesis.

17 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Also the use of the names Royce and Ambrose as first names is very likely to be headed in this direction.

Nah. You can't use a theory to prove a theory. There's nothing supporting this assumption.

17 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Beyond this, the evidence of names repeating in families is all over the various family trees that we actually have. So I don't know why you find it such a huge logical leap.

I don't think names are repeating that much, as I pointed out in my previous post.

Let's take house Baratheon, for example. We know 27 different characters from that house. Not a single name is ever repeated.

More examples: we have 17 named characters born as Tullys. There is only one repeated name (Hoster's son Edmure shared his name with the father of the founder of his house). Or the Arrys. There are 34 of them, and only two instances of a repeated name (two kings of old named Roland, and two Ronnels after the Conquest).

In real life, there were some families that used a very limited pool of names. But that's clearly not the norm in Westeros. Even unusual families that are more prone to repeat names, such as the Stark, most of the names are still original. If you take the family tree from TWOIAF, there are 37 out of the 54 Starks have a unique name.

17 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Since Rohanne Webber is already clearly indicated as an ancestor of Cersei's in the Lannister family tree, there is no need for further hints by other means on the issue. If he has a fully worked out family tree he no longer needs this tool does he?

The Sworn Sword was published in 2003. The Lannister family tree appeared with TWOIAF's publication, more than a decade later.

17 hours ago, Hippocras said:

It is about association IMO. Ellyn Baratheon was one of the Four Storms. GRRM gave them an interesting story and part of that story was ambition, rebelliousness, and a drop of royal blood to go with it, which underpinned a certain arrogance and entitlement. Because of this, when we see the name Ellyn elsewhere in the series, we have those traits associated with the name more or less subconsciously. So we come to Ellyn Reyne, who provoked a rebellion in the Westerlands and had all of the above character traits.

Your association only works because you ignore the Ellyns that do not share the supposedly common trait. The legendary Ellyn Ever-Sweet or Lady Ellyn Caron were not entitled, arrogant or rebellious.

[Hippocras]

21 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Nah. You can't use a theory to prove a theory. There's nothing supporting this assumption.

See my previous post. HISTORY supports the assumption. As do some details in character descriptions.

For example, House Caron is known to have produced many fine musicians. It is a trait that GRRM takes pains to show repeating in characters in the Caron family. Royce Caron's name was passed to his grandson Royce Baratheon, so that at least is known fact (and passed through the MATERNAL line). But there is also a Royce Blackwood in the reign of Jaehaerys I who, it just so happens, was also a fine singer on top of being a skilled knight. He sounds very much like a Caron.

WHY would GRRM give us this detail about him, and little else I might add, if not to hint at family connections? I feel like you are thinking about this completely backwards: You are assuming that family trees are the only tool GRRM would use to indication connections, while failing to notice that family trees outline the PATERNAL line only. To indicate MATERNAL connections he either needs to use other tools, or he needs trees for EVERY SINGLE FAMILY IN WESTEROS. But that is quite a ridiculous thing to demand from him.

As already pointed out, the particular circumstances during the reign of Aenys I make it in fact reasonably likely that Royces and Carons ended up allied at that point in time, both families having been rewarded with lands, titles, honours and offices for their respective actions in defense of Aenys's reign. However the two families also have older reasons to be connected, related to their respective roles in fighting the Andal invasions.

If the Carons and Royces were not already linked by then it seems to me to be a valid hypothesis that Allard Royce and either Ellyn Caron herself or a son of hers were granted offices on Aenys's small council. Serving together in KL led to a marriage alliance. So let's say Allard's daughter Alayne (Rhaena's loyal companion) married Ellyn's son or grandson in 37-42 AC. Their daughter, born before 49 AC was then the mother of Royce Blackwood, who was born in or before 64 AC. Meanwhile their son or grandson, Royce Caron was born in or before 85 AC. Royce Caron would have been Royce Blackwood's cousin by some degree.

With the Alayne connection, the first name Royce may have thus been a subtle indication of resistance to both Maegor's rule and the Faith Millitant, and loyalty to Aegon the Uncrowned and Rhaena.

 

21 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't think names are repeating that much, as I pointed out in my previous post.

The repetition is all over the Stark and Velaryon family trees. The Tyrells also have a very high frequency of certain names, such as Leo and Luthor. Most other trees that would help clarify are not at all complete, but since we are talking about names passed to DIFFERENT families by the MATERNAL line, the Tully, Lannister etc. tree do not offer much help since we have no corresponding trees for most of the ladies that married into Houses Tully or Lannister.

What we have is history. Reasons certain families are linked at certain points in time.

 

21 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Let's take house Baratheon, for example. We know 27 different characters from that house. Not a single name is ever repeated.

House Baratheon, as the PATERNAL line only, means absolutely nothing to this debate because we would need info on the MOTHERS' ancestors. Ditto for Houses Tully, Lannister etc.

You can't claim there is no repetition by looking only at the children of sons, and never the ancestors of mothers.

 

21 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

In real life, there were some families that used a very limited pool of names. But that's clearly not the norm in Westeros. 

You cannot at all claim this if you only consider men and their male line descendants. 

 

21 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

The Sworn Sword was published in 2003. The Lannister family tree appeared with TWOIAF's publication, more than a decade later.

That does not imply that GRRM did not know at the time that he was writing the story of a Lannister ancestor. But the association he wanted to make in that story was not to Cersei, but to the Blackfyres. The Dunk and Egg stories are in fact all about the Blackfyre era alliances on the subsurface.

 

Edited January 18 by Hippocras

[The hairy bear]

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

See my previous post. HISTORY supports the assumption.

No it doesn't.

It's true that, in real history, some families tended to reuse names. And it's true that in some cases, given names became family names and vice versa. No one is disputing that.

But what you are saying is that if I happen to meet someone name Louis, he is likely descended from the French royal house. And that any Frederik is "very likely" to descend from the Danish monarchs. And this is obviously counterfactual.

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

For example, House Caron is known to have produced many fine musicians. It is a trait that GRRM takes pains to show repeating in characters in the Caron family.

Many?

Pearse Caron is a famed singer, and includes a harp in his personal arms. But who else from the Caron family is ever linked to music?

Not Lord Bryce Caron from the main series, nor his father Bryen or his half-brother, the bastard of Nightsong. I also don't recall anything from Royce Caron, her daughter Ellyn, lord Morton, or Petyr Pimple.

It seems to me that the relationships you are proposing are extremely tenuous at best. It goes:

• There is one musician in House Caron => All the Carons are musicians
• There is one musician in House Blackwood => It must descend maternally from House Caron.

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

House Baratheon, as the PATERNAL line only, means absolutely nothing to this debate because we would need info on the MOTHERS' ancestors. Ditto for Houses Tully, Lannister etc.

So, we disregard the info that we have, and then assume that the info that we do not have fits into your theory?

It seems I won't be able to convince you, so I'm happy to leave it here.

Edited January 18 by The hairy bear

[Hippocras]

52 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

It seems I won't be able to convince you, so I'm happy to leave it here.

I was speaking on WESTEROS history. Did you even read about Caron and Royce during the time of Aenys?

House Caron - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org)

"The Carons date back to the Age of Heroes, and they are a family known for creating warriors and singers. "

Also, you know, the nightingale sigil could not be any more obvious a hint.

 

Look, either you assume GRRM truly believes women are irrelevant, ultimately to his story, or you don't. I genuinely do not see this as a story about only men.

If you believe the women are NOT irrelevant, then it follows that you must also consider it likely that he has put some thought into the descendants of females, not just males. But he can't show that in a patriarchal family tree. HE NEEDS OTHER TOOLS.

The only way to truly resolve the issue is for someone to directly ask him: is he in many cases using first names to indicate maternal line ancestry or not? IMO the huge number of things in the histories that start to make a lot more sense when looked at this way makes my theory far more likely than not. Frankly, I think the insistence on considering only male descendants as "valid" ancestors, and most characters as disconnected from each other is weird, twisted, and myopic on the part of the fan base. You are only seeing a fraction of the picture that way.

Edited January 18 by Hippocras

[SaffronLady]

40 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Frankly, I think the insistence on considering only male descendants as "valid" ancestors

Come to think of it, family trees could also be a convenient tool in lying, such as Robert Baratheon - Cersei Lannister

                                                                                                                                                                      |

                                                                                                                                                          Joffery Baratheon

[Landis]

Ooookay, Miss Samantha Tarly's ally block: 

• House Hightower, of course
• Rhaena Targaryen
  • marries Garmund Hightower, have a bunch of kids; theoretically in case Sam can't get her own kids by Lyonel legitimized
• Alyn Velaryon & Baela Targaryen
• Daenaera Velaryon
  • Unclear if this is direct, or just through Rhaena and Baela
• Torrhen Manderly
  • longstanding supporter of the Velaryons/Princess Rhaenys;
  • longstanding enmity with Peake family, which drove the Manderlys out of the Reach prior to the Conquest
• Rogare Family
  • Lotho Rogare
    • Torrhen Manderly provides him with a choice to take the black or lose his right hand; decides to lose his right hand
    • Proceeds to go immediately to Oldtown, where he is protected by Lady Sam
    • Theory: Lotho Rogare ends up being married to one of the many women Sam previously suggested as candidates for Aegon; he has at least one daughter, who is then married to a brother of Ronnel Penrose; daughter of Lotho Rogare + brother of Ronnel Penrose = Aelinor Penrose, who is married to Aerys I Targaryen (we've had lots of confusion over how Aelinor could have been Aerys' cousin while not being descended from Elaena Targaryen, and there being a lack of clarity on when/whether there was a match between a Penrose and a Martell daughter of Aerys' aunt Daenerys, and the timelines never match up; this is resolved by Aerys' relation to Aelinor having nothing at all to do with being a Targaryen cousin, instead being a cousin through the fact that his grandmother Larra Rogare was the sister of Aelinor's grandfather, Lotho Rogare)
  • Roggerio Rogare: names his Kings Landing brothel the Mermaid, and then his subsequent ship-bourne brothel the Mermaid's Daughter: potential reference to Manderly patronage, perhaps? (this may be a prelude to a later question about the Manderlys, their relationship to ships like the Merling King, and the evidence of a relationship with Braavos)
• House Penrose
  • Lucinda Penrose is made Daenaera's lady-in-waiting after she fails to catch Aegon III's eye herself after the dastardly Peakes appear to destroy her candidacy by physically maiming her
    • This appears to have been intended by the alliance as a way to provide Daenaera with support in Kings Landing against the Peakes and their faction
    • It was a miscalculation, however, as Lucinda wanted to marry Aegon for her own purposes, and seemingly gets roped into a plot to murder Aegon III and Daenaera, motivated (on Lucinda's side, at least) as a means of revenge against Daenaera for ~stealing her man
    • Despite participating in an assassination attempt (!!!) against the King, Torrhen Manderly is lenient with Lucinda and doesn't have her killed: like Lotho Rogare, she is allowed to lose a body part (her already-maimed nose, parallel to Lotho losing what is actually his lesser right hand) and become a septa instead of being executed
  • Theoretical marriage of a daughter of Lotho Rogare to a brother of Ronnel Penrose mentioned above
  • Despite Lucinda Penrose trying to murder Daenaera and Aegon III, they inexplicably decide to marry their daughter, Elaena Targaryen, to Ronnel Penrose (possibly Lucinda's nephew?)
    • Elaena is very clearly immersed in Velaryonisms, with her alleged relationship with Alyn (seemingly after Baela dies early, possibly in childbirth?), but the decision to name two of her daughters in reference to Baela and Rhaena's mother and grandmother long after Alyn is dead (Alyn, who wouldn't have had any relationship with either Laena or Jocelyn; it makes no sense for Elaena to refer to them as a way to honour Alyn, who similarly has no way of being the girls' father)
    • Elaena is effectively Daeron II's master of coin through her husband; she is also known to being in direct communication with the Iron Bank later on, which is another possible correlation with the Manderlys, as suggested above
    • It appears to be the result of Elaena's influence in her cousin Daeron II's court that allows for the arrangement of a marriage between Daeron II's son Aerys to her niece, Aelinor Penrose
  • House Penrose is later treated to an apparent extermination campaign during the First Blackfyre Rebellion, with Quentyn Ball killing all the sons of a "Lady Penrose" with the exception of the youngest boy as a favour to Lady Penrose
    • It is unclear who this Lady Penrose is, but I would suggest that the most reasonable one would be Aelinor Penrose's mother (i.e., the daughter of Lotho Rogare)
    • Elaena herself is expected to still be the Lady Penrose at this time, being only 46 years old, and none of her daughters would be old enough in 196 to have had at least three sons
    • Either way, this is an indication that House Penrose is, like Elaena, associated with support of Daeron II instead of Daemon Blackfyre, despite Daemon being Elaena's nephew
    • This also opens up a question about the nature of the relationship between this bloc and Dorne (especially when we consider that Aliandra Martell--grandmother or great aunt of Daeron II's wife Myriah Martell--was rumoured to have had an affair with Alyn Velaryon, and had also married Drazenko Rogare--Lotho and Roggerio's uncle--who was allegedly assassinated by the Faceless Men of Braavos)

[Hippocras]

@Landis

House Mandery

Great point about the Peakes vs. Manderlys. I had not really factored that in to the post-dance era but you are probably right. Also great point about how frequently the Manderlys had been alligned with Velaryons. Some detective work needed on the details of that connection still.

I think ultimately you might be on to something on a Manderly link to the Rogares for yet one more reason: the name Lysara. It appears only twice. One Lysara is Lara Rogare's older sister. The other was born a Karstark in the North. Weird! My guess is that Torrhen Manderly is the reason, by some circuitous route, why a descendant of House Rogare ended up born into House Karstark. The downfall of House Rogare was quick and brutal but by 139 they must have turned things around significantly since we know that Larra was able to return to Lys and live there until 145 AC without being treated as her siblings had been a few years earlier.

 

House Penrose

Regarding Aelinor Penrose: She certainly descended from either Rhaena or Baela. Of that we can be confident. But since she is indicated as her husband Aerys I's cousin, and since Baela and Rhaena's descendants would have by then been too far removed in the family tree to really qualify as cousins, I think it is a strong possibility that Aelinor's mother was a younger sister of Myriah Martell making Aelinor Aerys's maternal first cousin. My logic is that there were a great number of marriages arranged during and after Baelor's reign between Dornish houses and their traditional enemies in the Reach and Stormlands. Penroses were a Marcher House from the Stormlands, so definitely prime candidates. I am therefore not very convinced of your Rogare theory. I think Aelinor being a maternal cousin is the most logical explanation. Of course, Aelinor could have been BOTH a Rogare descendant AND a maternal first cousin via Aliandra Martell and Drazenko Rogare.

So, a daughter of Baela or Rhaena married Lord Penrose and had a son in 148-158 AC. Their son married Myriah Martell's sister somewhere during the reign of Baelor or Viserys, so in or before 172 AC. Their granddaughter Aelinor was born in or after 172 AC. Ronnel was possibly Aelinor's uncle, so descended from Rhaena or Baela but not from a Martell mother as Aelinor was.

 

EDIT NOTE

This discussion probably belongs mainly on the Sam Tarly Network thread rather than here. Maybe replies should go there. 

 

Edited January 20 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

On 1/18/2024 at 2:26 PM, SaffronLady said:

Come to think of it, family trees could also be a convenient tool in lying, such as Robert Baratheon - Cersei Lannister

                                                                                                                                                                      |

                                                                                                                                                          Joffery Baratheon

There are probably at least a few instances of this yes.

One I have wondered about recently is poor Prince Viserys, the one tortured and murdered by Maegor. He was 15 when he died. He had been held in KL as a hostage and squire to Maegor, and given Maegor's efforts to have an heir I have wondered if Maegor ever actually married off Viserys to the daughter of one of those loyal to him as a backup plan. Married or not, Viserys was theoretically old enough to have fathered a child, legitimate or bastard, who was then raised under a different name to prevent a contest for the throne. If this did happen, then Maegor Towers is IMO the prime candidate for a few reasons.

First, Maegor was born the same year his grandfather won the Lordship of Harrenhal following the extinction of the Harroways. This was also the same year Viserys was killed. Walton's heir Jordan needed to consolidate his position as a new Lord. He might therefore have accepted a match (if his first wife had died) with a lady by then already pregnant with Viserys's child because she had some small claim to Harrenhal herself. Alternately he may have simply agreed to raise Viserys's child as his own as a favour to the King, particularly if the mother was also dead. The mother may have been a Harroway (who was killed shortly after Maegor's birth) or she may have been born to some other House with female line descent from House Qoherys. The candidate Houses would all be found in the general vicinity of Harrenhal and among the families staunchly loyal to King Maegor. 

Second, it would offer an explanation for why Jaehaerys visited Harrenhal first on his progress in 53 AC: If Maegor Towers really was the son of Viserys then it would mean his claim to the Iron Throne was ahead of Jaehaerys's. For the same reason it would help explain the relationship that developed between Rhaena (Viserys's sister) and Maegor (her nephew), because not only would they have been unofficially family, but they would also have bonded over the fact that they both had been passed over when Jaehaerys took the throne, and yet chose not to make war by contesting that fact.

 

Anyway, we do digress on this thread. Still hoping for some more light discussion of the Maidens of 133 AC

Edited January 22 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

Which of these do you people think were the most likely to have had a connection to House Manderly at the time? Remember, House Manderly is a Northern House, but they are also primarily a rich port city and they would have had alliances across the Narrow Sea.

The daughter of the Prince of Pentos

The sister of the Archon of Tyrosh

"Daughters of ancient houses" from Myr

(All 3 cities then embroiled in the Daughters’ War)

Barba Bolton - returned with food for the North. Married a Northman

Cassandra Baratheon - married Walter Brownhill

Elinor Massey - sister or niece of Elinda ( who was lady in waiting of Rhaenyra). Obviously considered competition for Myrielle so may have had some degree of Targaryen lineage. Reputation damage so…

Myrmadora Haen - Rival House of Rogare? Died 2 years later.

Sansara Tarly - Samantha’s smart sister.