Maegor's Bastard was Confused - Or the (sort-of) Bloodline of Visenya

[Hippocras]

At the Great Council of 101 a man-at-arm of unknown name or allegiance claimed to be Maegor's bastard. If he truly was, he would have been all that remained of Visenya's bloodline. It occurs to me though that he might have simply been confused about which Maegor.

 

What do you think of the idea that Maegor's bastard was the son of Maegor Towers? Don't dismiss too quickly! I know there is not any evidence.

 

But I am interested in Maegor Towers. I think there might be more to this character than at first glance. I can't really understand his purpose in the story just yet and that is why I am searching for ideas. To me, there is something really strange going on, starting with Visenya, inter-twined with the history of Harrenhal, and involving a series of (supposedly) extinct bloodlines.

Maegor Tower was 17 when he died in 61 AC, so clearly old enough to have fathered a bastard who would have been about 40 in 101 AC. Of course, the man would also have to have been confused about his year of birth as Maegor Towers was not old enough to have been a father yet when King Maegor died. Still, in my experience, our 40's are an ambiguous age range. Neither young nor old, and some of us look much older than others. Easy enough to be confused if uneducated.

 

Edited January 27 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

So this is the proposal:

Visenya's Shadow, or influence, is very much tied up with Harrenhal in weird and difficult to parse ways. For example we know she was suspected to have used dark magic to conceive Maegor, and dark magic is a theme that pops up frequently in that place. We also know she was the one to conquer the general region of Harrenhal, and that several of these Houses were actually sworn directly to her. Visenya was older than Aegon. She may well have felt that she was the rightful queen, though it did not particularly matter at first since Aegon often left her to rule and she was married to him anyway. But inheritance is a different matter. Her being first born is why she felt that Maegor was the rightful king, as he was her child and she was eldest.

We know that Aegon was not particularly enamoured of his older sister. It was more of a working relationship. We also know that a valid hypothesis is that Aegon the Conqueror was infertile. Which means, if true, that Visenya required a secret sperm donor whose child was unlikely to raise suspicions. So the Maegor sperm donor had to be of Valyrian/Targaryen descent.

We can investigate options for who the donor/lover might have been later, but for now we turn to Maegor.

Maegor Targaryen probably was also infertile. He did not produce any children with a large number of fertile brides. However his marriage to Alys Harroway ties him also to Harrenhal. And it remains possible that one of Alys's sisters did in fact have a child before Maegor killed all the Harroways in 44 AC.

On another thread, I wondered if Maegor, while struggling to produce an heir, ever married off his hostage/nephew Viserys to one of his loyalists in order to produce a back-up heir. A Viserys forced marriage to a family loyal to Maegor would add weight to Alyssa's decision to leave Viserys to his fate, because she could have seen his loyalties as uncertain, and his heir as attainted (speculative).

So let's say that Viserys was married off in 43 AC to Hanna or Jeyne Harroway. They had a child born in very late 43 or early 44. But then also in 44 AC, both Viserys and the Harroway girls were murdered. So Maegor had a potential heir who was orphaned as an infant. With the Harroways dead, he held a competition between his loyal men to see who would be given Harrenhal. House Towers won, and House Towers was also given the task of raising Maegor's back-up heir, also named Maegor, as their own. Why the secret identity? So that noone would fight for Viserys's child in place of his own heir if he ever had one, as Viserys was, after the death of Aegon the Uncrowned, the heir of Aenys. Maegor would have wanted to protect his line.

So then Maegor Towers was raised at Harrenhal by Jordan Towers. King Maegor died when young Maegor was only 4, and so noone felt it necessary to take up arms to fight for his claim. His true identity was buried. Then in 56 AC, when Maegor was 12, he was joined at Harrenhal by Rhaena, who, coincidentally, had also been passed over for the throne by the events of history. As with Visenya, Rhaena's line appears to have died out. But her adoption (effectively) of Maegor in the last few years of his life may have been based in their bond over being passed over, and the fact that Maegor would have been her nephew and her only memory of her brother Viserys.

Furthermore, via the Harroways or whatever other family Viserys was married off to, Aenys's line may have merged with the line that was tied up with Visenya's to produce King Maegor in the first place.

Edited January 27 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

So noone in interested in the weirdness surrounding Harrenhal or in Visenya and others' apparently extinct bloodlines eh?

[Hippocras]

Ok, well then I will babble into the void.

 

The name Maegor is attached to 3 charaters:

King Maegor, tyrant son of Visenya. He was the only son of the eldest of the 3 conquerors. Visenya's line (arguably the legitimate one by logic of eldest) would have been passed over if Maegor had not decided to usurp his nephew Aegon. End of his line. Killed his nephew Aegon near Harrenhal.

Maegor Towers, Lord of Harrenhal officially the youngest son of Jordan Towers, born 44 AC (the same year that Visenya died, the Harroways were extinguished and Prince Viserys was tortured and killed). Befriended Rhaena (who was passed over when Maegor took the throne) after she moved to Harrenhal. Maegor died at 17 years old. End of his line (any bastards or female line descendants excepted).

Maegor, son of Aerion. Passed over for the throne because of young age and fear of madness. Suspected father or grandfather of Gerold Dayne (Darkstar). If so, Maegor was raised by a different family under an assumed name to reduce his threat to the reign of Aegon V, since arguably he had the better claim. The Daynes were very likely the ones to raise Maegor as their own and they later became entangled with Harrehnal in 281 AC.

 

The name Visenya is attached to only 2 characters:

Visenya, mother of Maegor. Conquered the Vale and Crackclaw Point in the vicinity of Harrenhal. 

Visenya, stillborn daughter of Rhaenyra, who was the eldest child of Viserys. The war for the right of a woman to inherit the Throne in her own name ultimately resulted in the death of that right even though the Blacks won. The death of female inheritance was symbolized by Visenya's stillbirth. Rhaenyra was at one point given the nickname "Maegor with Teats". She was given this name as part of the efforts of Larys Strong, then Lord of Harrenhal, to undermine her.

 

As you can see, the proposal that Maegor Towers may be more than he seems is based on the pattern we can see take form with the points in bold above. If he was in fact the son of Viserys then he too would have been a character with arguably the better claim, who was passed over by the events of history and raised by a different family under an assumed name to reduce his threat to the crown.

[Hippocras]

I believe that if I am on to something here, the dark magic, passed over, Maegor associations will eventually tie in to the explanation for what happened at Summerhall. Which was not far from High Hermitage, where Maegor would have been 27 years old.

It would also contine to tie in to the Dayne family hiding children under secret identities to protect both the dangerous child and the realm.

Edited January 30 by Hippocras

[Frey family reunion]

On 1/29/2024 at 2:43 AM, Hippocras said:

Befriended Rhaena (who was passed over when Maegor took the throne) after she moved to Harrenhal. Maegor died at 17 years old. End of his line (any bastards or female line descendants excepted).

I would also add that Rhaena was passed over when Jahaerys and Alysanne took the throne as well.  Something Rhaena seems keenly aware of.

Quote

Jaehaerys refused to give her Dragonstone outright, but instead allowed her to hold it in his name as a gift. Though Rhaena was not pleased by having to bend the knee to her much younger brother, she eventually accepted.

Quote

Moved by the girl’s tears, Queen Alysanne could do no more than promise to take the matter up with her mother. When Rhaena next emerged from her chambers to take a meal, however, she rejected the notion out of hand. “You have everything and I have nothing. Now you would take my daughter too. Well, you shall not have her. You have my throne, content yourself with that.”

 

[Frey family reunion]

7 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I believe that if I am on to something here, the dark magic, passed over, Maegor associations will eventually tie in to the explanation for what happened at Summerhall. Which was not far from High Hermitage, where Maegor would have been 27 years old.

It would also contine to tie in to the Dayne family hiding children under secret identities to protect both the dangerous child and the realm.

It’s an interesting proposition.  “Maegor” is a dark shadow cast when a female line of House Targaryen is passed over.  Visenya passed over by Aenys and Alyssa, Rhaena passed over by Jahaerys and Alysanne.  Rhaenyra passed over  by Aegon II.  Not only was she called a “Maegor with teats”, her husband, Daemon was also likened to Maegor as well.

The next female line that gets passed over is Daena the defiant’s line.  The Blackfyre line.  And Daemon Blackfyre’s strongest supporter was Aegor Rivers.  Awfully close to Maegor.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

So Maegor is Demise from The Legend of Zelda?

[Hippocras]

4 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

So Maegor is Demise from The Legend of Zelda?

I couldn't say.

 

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

And Daemon Blackfyre’s strongest supporter was Aegor Rivers.  Awfully close to Maegor.

Good point there. Wonder how I missed that!

 

I have also begun wondering about 2 connected names: Aerion and Viserys.

We know next to nothing about Aerion, father of the conquerors. And since there are only 2 Aerions, you can't take the second one's story alone and call it a pattern. But as the father of the conquerors he may be relevant once we know more. In particular I wonder if he might have been the one to make or order the making of Blackfyre and Dark Sister. Since we know that forging, and probably also reforging Valyrian steel requires blood sacrifice, it qualifies as a dark magic process. He may also have had prophetic dreams which led to misguided interpretations, not unlike the second Aerion. Interestingly, the first lord of Harrenhal post-conquest was Qoherys which is a name too similar to Qohor to be coincidental. Qohor is the city that has retained the secrets for reforging Valyrian steel. Quenton was a master-at-arms, with no mention of him also being a blacksmith. But he could well have been the son of a blacksmith, brought over by Aerion to make the swords. This would of course connect Aerion indirectly to Harrenhal. Speculative.

The name Viserys, meanwhile, is the closest thing in the Targ family tree to am a male version of Visenya. The first Viserys was of course the one tortured and killed by King Maegor, and who I speculated above may have been the father of Maegor Towers, Lord of Harrenhal. Any descendants of his, if they exist, are bastard or female line and so concealed under different names.

The second Viserys, first to rule, was selected as King at Harrenhal, and his daughter was called "Maegor with teats" by then-lord of Harrenhal of course.  He died a horrible death as well though in his case a disease. His daughter's bloodline survived, but his sons' did not except possibly through bastards: His son Aemond may have fathered a child at Harrenhal while his son Aegon probably has bastard descendants in the slums of KL.

Next came King Viserys II, father of Aegon IV, who, like Viserys I, was chose by passing over a female claimant to the throne. He was likely murdered by his own son. Aegon IV was not called Maegor but he was almost as reviled. If the rumors are true, Aegon's successor Daeron was not his son though he could never prove it. In this case Aegon IV's line also continued only through bastards and the female line. Viserys II had no known connection to Harrenhal, except perhaps a role in extinguishing the rebellion of Alys Rivers if she and her son survived the winter fever. For that we need to wait until GRRM writes something about it. But his son Aegon IV was connected to Harrenhal via his mistress.

Finally, there is Viserys, brother of Dany. He was a second born son whose claim was usurped, and who died a brutal death. His story is therefore reminiscent of the first Viserys. We can be reasonably confident he did not father even a bastard before he died, so his line did not continue. As an exile his only possible connection to Harrenhal would have to be the tourney of 281, which he did not even attend. However he may have had some role in why things turned to rot there. Speculative.

 

 

[Landis]

Viserys II didn’t have a connection to Harrenhal, but he had a connection to a woman accused of leveraging magic for her own ends, Larra Rogare. The same accusations are levelled at Maegor’s mother Visenya, and at least two of his wives (Tyanna and Rhaena). Rhaena is clearly connected to Harrenhal, such that she even has her ashes interred there for some reason (there is a part of me that thinks Jaehaerys’ spiteful ass hosted the Great Council of 101 at Harrenhal just to rub his sister’s face in the passing over of Rhaenys, whose existence was in part orchestrated by Rhaena, who ensured Jocelyn was raised in Kings Landing by Alysanne instead of Storm’s End). Rhaena’s girlfriend Elissa Farman (or at least her boat) ends up in Asshai, and is seen there by Corlys Velaryon. Rhaena herself seems specifically drawn to islands throughout her life, and I don’t think it is a mistake that when she finally decides to move inland, she goes to Harrenhal, which sits across the water from an inland island: the magical Isle of Faces.
 

Aegon IV also has wives accused of being magic doers, as well as his son Bloodraven, and his daughter Shiera (whose name, given to her by her Lyseni mother, is only repeated one other time in the text through Shiera Blackwood, who was the Blackwood heir and Queen Who Never Was of the Riverlands 400 years before the Conquest; Rhaenys Targaryen is a direct descendent of her through the Durrandons, which I would argue is why House Blackwood defends her/Laenor’s claim in 101, and why they so violently put down Borros Baratheon for breaking this centuries-long pact to privilege the Targaryen bond of the Baratheons instead).

I’d also note we have Vaegon Targaryen, who goes to the Citadel a few years after his witchy auntie Rhaena dies and becomes an archmaester of the arcane arts (we don’t know what happens to him yet, but in theory he is still alive and kicking after the Dance). 
 

We know the current Lord Hightower is currently up in his tower with the witchy Malora, whose younger sister, interestingly, is currently the defacto ruler of Lys, which has on multiple occasions been associated with magic by Westerosi. 
 

I guess my position on all of this is more that the misbehaving boys are not so important as the forces that they are messing with. Yes we can run with the assumption that these magical associations are often ways of discrediting women (especially foreign ones), specifically, from engaging in and influencing politics. But there is also a pattern of this esoteric stuff percolating around the Isle of Faces, Harrenhal, and House Blackwood specifically as the Old Gods house in the South (and, theoretically, the major house in the North prior to being banished by the Starks). Oldtown is another key site, as we know they effectively teach magic there, with both Vaegon and Rhaena’s daughter Rhaella/Aerea training as a septa there and maintaining contact with her mother while Rhaena stayed at Harrenhal. We know the God’s Eye has at least three dragon carcasses in it by the end of the Dance (Quicksilver, Vhagar, Caraxes), and we know the triplet of the Trident holds a significant place in Old Gods faith practices, such that a number of First Men houses depict it in one way or another in their house sigils (I don’t think it’s a mistake that Houses Massey and Strong, two houses that fall in this category, are among those allowed to ~procreate with House Targaryen). Addam Velaryon flies to the Isle of Faces to consult the trees before his ultimate death, and his bones are kept safe by House Blackwood in the wake of it, a further highlighting of the connection between House Blackwood and Rhaenys (keeping in mind that, whether true or not, the understanding is that Addam and Alyn are Rhaenys’ grandsons, not Corlys’ sons). and then there is Lys, which has Larra, Serenei, and Shiera Seastar, and may also be either the source of whoever Shiera Blackwood’s mother was, or vice versa, an indication of a woman from a First Man house (Blackwood or Durrandon) marrying in Lys to proliferate the name there. 
 

Idk, just some thoughts, but my sense is that both Maegor and Aegon IV were not in reality how they were portrayed in the histories written about them to (above all) validate competing Targaryen claimants and to maintain male only primogeniture. The fact that we have this information about the prophecy is also interesting as an intersection with the magical sphere when we consider that it is the heir that is given the info about the prophecy: we should assume that Visenya knew, and she would have told Maegor. Realizing that Maegor was unable to have kids, she orchestrates his marriage to Rhaena (the direct next in line) and makes Rhaena’s daughters the heirs. Rhaena knows and becomes associated with magic. She tells Alysanne, who flies North to the Wall to check things out. Rhaena’s daughter is made their heir as well, only for Jaehaerys to continually remove her from the succession as his weak first kids are born, increasing tensions. Alysanne and Rhaena get increasingly angry with Jaehaerys as he continually privileges his sons over his daughters, breaking the “rules” of the prophecy (at least as Visenya saw it). Rhaena manages to secure her young half-sister Jocelyn Baratheon’s position at court as a marriage match for Jaehaerys and Alysanne’s oldest son Aegon; their child effectively will unite the Targaryens with two of Westeros’ most magically-significant houses: the Blackwoods and the Durrandons. That kid is Rhaenys, who then rejoins with the main branch of House Velaryon, the most wealthy house, but also specifically to Corlys, who has travelled far and wide throughout the world and been exposed to plenty of magic stuff, including another connection to Rhaena through Elissa Farman (heir girlies having a thing for seafarers is an interesting trend). The main house that we know of being a stronghold for Rhaenys’ subsequent bloodline, House Hightower, continues in the present to be heavily associated with magical research, and also actively trying to regain access to the Iron Throne, again through a woman, Margaery Tyrell, who is deliberately being used as a unifying influence in the same spirit as I expect Rhaena intended Rhaenys to be.
 

Heck, when we look at the many marriages of Maegor and Aegon IV, there is also an argument to be made about many marriages being used as a means of consolidating support — this was certainly the way this worked in various monarchical periods of Iran in particular, and Martin draws quite liberally (if uncritically) from Iranian history and culture for a lot of things related to Valyria, the Targaryens, and the Dothraki; much of R’hollor is drawn from Zoroastrianism as well.

[Hippocras]

@Landis I believe there is a Shiera Crakehall too, which has me intrigued.

[Landis]

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

@Landis I believe there is a Shiera Crakehall too, which has me intrigued.

Ooh I’d missed Shiera Crakehall, that’s interesting. I’ve been curious about the -ei suffix in female names as well, as it is very rare, and Crakehall is one of the few houses where we see it show up (Amarei). Interestingly, a number of the ones we know about marry into House Frey: Amarei Crakehall marries Walder Frey as his third wife (when she dies, Walder marries Alyssa Blackwood; when she dies, he marries Sarya Whent — it does seem there is a pattern of Walder marrying a woman from a house, and then one of his sons marrying a woman from that same house, which mimics the situation of Arlan III marrying Rodrick Blackwood’s younger daughter, while his heir married Shiera Blackwood at the same time, suggesting this may actually be an established way of doing things long before Queens Visenya and Alysanne do it, and it adds a seeming indigenous context to what Alysanne Blackwood does with all those Stark veterans in the Riverlands after the Dance as well), and then Winafrei Whent (also a seemingly magic-affiliated house from Harrenhal, especially if we believe the theory of the Stark kids getting their warging via Catelyn instead of Ned) and Carolei Waynwood (who appears almost certainly to be a daughter of Anya Waynwood, herself the apparent granddaughter of Jocelyn Stark and Benedict Royce, and therefore the great granddaughter of Melantha Blackwood), who both marry sons of Amarei and Walder. (Another of their sons marries a Braavosi woman, which is an interesting bit as well). Amarei and Walder’s son Merrett marries Mariya Darry, and their eldest daughter is named Amerei, who also strikes me as interesting for how her story isn’t unlike that of Saera Targaryen; House Blackwood comes up here as well, as House Darry were members of that long-lasting Blackwood-Durrandon alliance before the Conquest which aimed to make Shiera Blackwood the River Queen. 

The main -ei we know is Cersei, of course, who is certainly interested in magic with Maggy the Frog, but who we might also associate to the arcane through her relationship with Qyburn. Curious about where the name Cersei comes from though

The other time we see the -ei suffix is with none other than Shiera Seastar’s mother, Serenei of Lys, who, like her daughter, is also associated with magic. And even here, it’s again tied with the Blackwoods, with Serenei’s daughter being the delight of Bloodraven (maybe the name Shiera is a factor in that obsession).