The Meereenese Blot

[Craving Peaches]

On 3/6/2024 at 8:50 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

America was clearly on the right side. Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were CLEARLY committing all kinds war crimes and crimes against humanity and they probably wouldn’t have stopped if others hadn’t intervened.

While true America did not join (or at least it doesn't seem to have been the main motivating factor) to stop what the Nazis were doing. They joined because they wanted to cut Japan down to size and because they didn't want Soviet hegemony over Europe. If they were so concerned with the moral issue they would have joined the war earlier... In this respect Daenerys is much more sympathetic, because her fight in Slaver's Bay is totally motivated by her moral compass and not her geopolitical interest, desire for power etc. Which is why I think Daenerys should not bother with Westeros aside from beating the Others, and that she should focus on Slaver's Bay to ensure there is a good system to replace slavery so that it doesn't come back.

[Daeron the Daring]

On 3/6/2024 at 4:06 PM, Aldarion said:

But you are a fool if you think that Communists are not thinking, day and night, how to export their "glorious revolution" and murder everybody who does not agree with them.

Can confirm.

As a socialist, I think and develop my master plan of how to eliminate my pro-capitalist surroundings on a daily basis, starting with my family and friends.

Edited March 7 by Daeron the Daring

[Daeron the Daring]

7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

If they were so concerned with the moral issue they would have joined the war earlier

We're talking about countries that consciously exploited the rest of the world or anyone not white, paying for it with hundreds of millions of lives and uncomprehensible material value. Hitler openly praised the US for how smooth it runs society with racial segregation in the 30's.

Edited March 7 by Daeron the Daring

[Craving Peaches]

56 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Can confirm.

As a socialist, I think and develop my master plan of how to eliminate my pro-capitalist surroundings on a daily basis, starting with my family and friends.

Yeah, my aim is to beat Pol Pot's record. I have a big picture of Daddy Stalin hanging on my wall too. And my favourite colour is red.

Edited March 7 by Craving Peaches

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

While true America did not join (or at least it doesn't seem to have been the main motivating factor) to stop what the Nazis were doing. They joined because they wanted to cut Japan down to size and because they didn't want Soviet hegemony over Europe. If they were so concerned with the moral issue they would have joined the war earlier... In this respect Daenerys is much more sympathetic, because her fight in Slaver's Bay is totally motivated by her moral compass and not her geopolitical interest, desire for power etc. Which is why I think Daenerys should not bother with Westeros aside from beating the Others, and that she should focus on Slaver's Bay to ensure there is a good system to replace slavery so that it doesn't come back.

To be fair, in real life, most countries, and factions, fight for reasons of honour, interest, or fear.

You do get purely altruistic fighters, like the International Brigades, and true believers are any side’s dream, but they are unusual.

[Daeron the Daring]

Leninist-Marxists when they meet a Marxist-Leninist (they consider each other traitors of the cause) be like:

15 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yeah, my aim is to beat Pol Pot's record. I have a big picture of Daddy Stalin hanging on my wall too. And my favourite colour is red.

Edited March 8 by Daeron the Daring

[Lord Varys]

It is kind of funny how American readers of ASoIaF actually parallel Dany's story in Slaver's Bay with the recent American wars. Those are non-parallels.

Daenerys is no super power dominating the world, she is a young girl living in fantasy world. She speaks the same language as the Ghiscari and while there are some religious and cultural differences, they share a similar background (Dothraki culture is really different from Ghiscari and Valyrian culture).

The one, the only issue of contention between them is slavery and the slave trade, especially as practiced by the degenerate Ghiscari.

 

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is kind of funny how American readers of ASoIaF actually parallel Dany's story in Slaver's Bay with the recent American wars. Those are non-parallels.

Daenerys is no super power dominating the world, she is a young girl living in fantasy world. She speaks the same language as the Ghiscari and while there are some religious and cultural differences, they share a similar background (Dothraki culture is really different from Ghiscari and Valyrian culture).

The one, the only issue of contention between them is slavery and the slave trade, especially as practiced by the degenerate Ghiscari.

 

The outside, imperial powers, are New Ghis, Qarth, and Volantis.  The people fighting slavery are the local ex-slaves.

Iraq is a tribal society, divided by religion.  All it has in common with Meereen is that it’s hot.

[House Cambodia]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is kind of funny how American readers of ASoIaF actually parallel Dany's story in Slaver's Bay with the recent American wars. Those are non-parallels.

Hang on there! I'm British, exiled these last two decades in south-east Asian - less of your assumptions!

The ONLY parallel I was drawing is that trying to regime-change an evil system is far more complicated than protagonists tend to assume. I have far more sympathy for a teenage idealist with dragons than real-life grizzled politicos who fail time and again and arrogantly refuse to learn any lessons, but the analogy is definitely there. I myself refrained from trying to shoe-horn more specific details - that would fall into allegorical territory.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Hang on there! I'm British, exiled these last two decades in south-east Asian - less of your assumptions!

The ONLY parallel I was drawing is that trying to regime-change an evil system is far more complicated than protagonists tend to assume. I have far more sympathy for a teenage idealist with dragons than real-life grizzled politicos who fail time and again and arrogantly refuse to learn any lessons, but the analogy is definitely there. I myself refrained from trying to shoe-horn more specific details - that would fall into allegorical territory.

Didn't mean you there, as I dimly recall that the essays in questions also draw such parallels. A real parallel to US history, as @SeanF and I did lay out in earlier discussions, can be the Civil War and Abe Lincoln to a point. Dany is a self-taught prodigy, too, married to a slaver (descendant), etc. who is radicalized over time.

Not to mention that George himself echoes the pre-war abolitionist sentiments that America has to do away with slavery with 'fire and blood' in his own slaver states novel 'Fevre Dream'. And historically it is quite clear that the war wasn't enough. The American slavery elite lost their slaves but not their power and wealth, allowing the country to continue in racialized apartheid and racism for decades and, to a point, into the present.

In ADwD, Dany is acting like a post-Lincoln president, trying to heal wounds and bridge gaps ... when the work is not completely done.

But the silly interpretation of quite a few American readers is to take the viewpoint of the degenerate slavers in a kind of unconscious defence of their own slaver ancestors or slaver founding fathers. Daenerys is faulted for invading a 'foreign culture' when in fact the only issue they differ about is slavery. And the fucking slavers are put down by freed slaves. When the Unsullied butcher the Astapori the idea isn't that they do this as they would do any other thing. It is something they would have wanted to do for a very long time. Dany is just a catalyst there. We also see that in detail with the rekindled hope for freedom in the Volantene slaves.

Dany fails when she compromises and listens to degenerates like Xaro, Galazza, and Hizdahr. They and their ways have to go. If they are spared or not otherwise neutralized effectively, you get the plot of ADwD.

Changing a system in a rather small city state is not hard. Kill the crucial members of the elite, dispossess and exile the rest. Do away with slavery, and redistribute the obscene wealth of the slavers.

It is not going to be paradise tomorrow, but it would be a decent start.

Bigger states would be harder to change, of course.

18 hours ago, SeanF said:

The outside, imperial powers, are New Ghis, Qarth, and Volantis.  The people fighting slavery are the local ex-slaves.

Iraq is a tribal society, divided by religion.  All it has in common with Meereen is that it’s hot.

Dany and her regime are about to lose the freedmen when she disappears. The Unsullied refuse to fight for and defend Meereen under King Hizdahr.

A tidbit of more slaver accommodating could have very well lead to serious friction in Dany's camp.

Edited March 9 by Lord Varys

[Craving Peaches]

I've said this before but if Daenerys wanted to have (relatively) uncontested rule, she should have either totally assimilated into the local culture or done a complete overhaul. She's trying to compromise/get the best of both worlds at the moment which isn't working, because the elites are always going to want to get rid of her so long as she is wanting to get rid of slavery.

[SeanF]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Didn't mean you there, as I dimly recall that the essays in questions also draw such parallels. A real parallel to US history, as @SeanF and I did lay out in earlier discussions, can be the Civil War and Abe Lincoln to a point. Dany is a self-taught prodigy, too, married to a slaver (descendant), etc. who is radicalized over time.

Not to mention that George himself echoes the pre-war abolitionist sentiments that America has to do away with slavery with 'fire and blood' in his own slaver states novel 'Fevre Dream'. And historically it is quite clear that the war wasn't enough. The American slavery elite lost their slaves but not their power and wealth, allowing the country to continue in racialized apartheid and racism for decades and, to a point, into the present.

In ADwD, Dany is acting like a post-Lincoln president, trying to heal wounds and bridge gaps ... when the work is not completely done.

But the silly interpretation of quite a few American readers is to take the viewpoint of the degenerate slavers in a kind of unconscious defence of their own slaver ancestors or slaver founding fathers. Daenerys is faulted for invading a 'foreign culture' when in fact the only issue they differ about is slavery. And the fucking slavers are put down by freed slaves. When the Unsullied butcher the Astapori the idea isn't that they do this as they would do any other thing. It is something they would have wanted to do for a very long time. Dany is just a catalyst there. We also see that in detail with the rekindled hope for freedom in the Volantene slaves.

Dany fails when she compromises and listens to degenerates like Xaro, Galazza, and Hizdahr. They and their ways have to go. If they are spared or not otherwise neutralized effectively, you get the plot of ADwD.

Changing a system in a rather small city state is not hard. Kill the crucial members of the elite, dispossess and exile the rest. Do away with slavery, and redistribute the obscene wealth of the slavers.

It is not going to be paradise tomorrow, but it would be a decent start.

Bigger states would be harder to change, of course.

Dany and her regime are about to lose the freedmen when she disappears. The Unsullied refuse to fight for and defend Meereen under King Hizdahr.

A tidbit of more slaver accommodating could have very well lead to serious friction in Dany's camp.

It’s grimly funny to view some social media, and read the sorts of arguments, in relation to Meereen, that Jefferson Davis and Alexander Stephens would have made.

I hadn’t realised, until recently, that in the USA, there is an element of the population that is so wedded to the idea that slavery was a benign institution, that it even spills over into discussions about fiction.

[astarkchoice]

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I've said this before but if Daenerys wanted to have (relatively) uncontested rule, she should have either totally assimilated into the local culture or done a complete overhaul. She's trying to compromise/get the best of both worlds at the moment which isn't working, because the elites are always going to want to get rid of her so long as she is wanting to get rid of slavery.

Its the old machavallian quote about not leaving your enemies capable of striking back! She left the masters rich and  alive then closing the pit fights put hundreds of trained killers out of work, pissed off the religious leaders and turned off a major income source for the city (and angering  the rich behind the games ).

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Its the old machavallian quote about not leaving your enemies capable of striking back! She left the masters rich and  alive then closing the pit fights put hundreds of trained killers out of work, pissed off the religious leaders and turned off a major income source for the city (and angering  the rich behind the games ).

Sorry, but the pit fighters were slaves, originally. They weren't put out of work, they were freed. Hizdahr then comes in as a rich capitalist who basically offers the now 'unemployed' pit fighters to hire them as 'workers' to continue their 'trade'. But their trade is monstrous savagery that has to be abolished along with slavery.

It is like hiring a freed sex slave back as a paid prostitute. The trade is bad in general, not only if it involves slavery.

Dany is too naive/stupid to see that, just as she has no good refutation ready to deal with Xaro's cunning defense/justification of slavery.

[House Cambodia]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany is too naive/stupid to see that

I happen to be reading ADWD, Dany's marriage at the moment. She is perfectly aware and hates the compromise she's made. I refer back to the original point I made that led to some politicos diverting the thread: she's neither naive nor stupid; "great" political minds in the 21st century have failed in invading and dismantling an evil regime, and rebuilding it better, so it's not really fair to expect more of Dany. The simple point that I came into the thread with is that there are no easy answers.

[astarkchoice]

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sorry, but the pit fighters were slaves, originally. They weren't put out of work, they were freed. Hizdahr then comes in as a rich capitalist who basically offers the now 'unemployed' pit fighters to hire them as 'workers' to continue their 'trade'. But their trade is monstrous savagery that has to be abolished along with slavery.

It is like hiring a freed sex slave back as a paid prostitute. The trade is bad in general, not only if it involves slavery.

Dany is too naive/stupid to see that, just as she has no good refutation ready to deal with Xaro's cunning defense/justification of slavery.

The pits we are clearly told are a major source of income for the citysy dying economy and have their roots in the cities main religion too!   If former pit fighters want to fight for cash now it was daft of dany to refuse them and the powerful  people who make money off them. The ones that.didnt want  to go near the pits again should have been offerered well paid jobs as the new city watch too.

Edited March 10 by astarkchoice

[SeanF]

My issue with the fighting pits is how “voluntary” is working in them.  No sooner are they reopened, then Hizdahr is feedings dwarves to lions.

[Lord Varys]

55 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

I happen to be reading ADWD, Dany's marriage at the moment. She is perfectly aware and hates the compromise she's made. I refer back to the original point I made that led to some politicos diverting the thread: she's neither naive nor stupid; "great" political minds in the 21st century have failed in invading and dismantling an evil regime, and rebuilding it better, so it's not really fair to expect more of Dany. The simple point that I came into the thread with is that there are no easy answers.

I think I specifically referenced the fighting pit thing regarding her being naive. She gives in to demands of the pit fighters who were formally enslaved who Hizdahr propped up to support his arguments. She doesn't know how to counter a former slave's demand to continue in his/her monstrous profession, even more so in light of the crucial role the pit fighters played in the fall of Meereen.

Ditto with her inability to counter Xaro's story about the formerly rich guy who wants to be his slave now. She shies away from paternalism there, but people living in a fucked up society that is changing need to be told that they can't do depraved things in the new society, even if they want to or are fine with the consequences.

One of the best examples would be a ten-year-old child laborer whose income helps to feed and clothe his ailing mother. We can't allow him to work for a living at that age, and we do have to change the circumstances that force him to work.

The correct reply to the pit fighters would have been 'Do something else! Join my freedmen companies, become sellswords, do learn another trade. The blood sport times are over.' And to Xaro: 'You will release that man at once, and you will also free all the slaves you brought with you to Meereen. If you want to help your old friend then give him an annual allowance or buy him back his old house or hire him as a clerk or official, but I won't have your filthy slavery shit in my city!'

Dany is not naive about her marriage to Hizdahr, of course. But she is also naive in her belief that she can trust Galazza Galare or any of the Meereenese elite to the point that she does. She actually think they might accept her eventually, and she also thinks they have a real interest in peace and co-existence ... when they simply don't.

The only shared interest they have is to prevent a sacking of the city by the Yunkish allies ... because that might result in further loss of wealth and perhaps also in the establishment of direct Yunkish rule in Meereen. And that is then why the Green Grace makes the Hizdahr match and has him broker a peace with Yunkai and the others so they can prevent a direct conflict, undermine Daenerys from within, and eventually kill her off so that the Meereenese figurehead king at her side can take over.

This only fails because the leader of the Yunkai'i, Yurkhaz zo Yunzak, who was in favor of peace, is trampled to death in Daznak's Pit and the second most influential Yunkish leader, Yezzan zo Qogaz, who has similar inclinations, mounts the Pale Mare. Then the hawks among the Yunkai'i gain traction, backed and urged on by the sellsword commander Bloodbeard who wants spoils.

And all the Yunkish allies also know that the Volantenes are on the way, having declared war on Dany independently of their own coalition (but urged on by their envoy). The peace they created is not likely to survive the arrival of the Volantenes, anyway, so if there are spoils to be had, they better sack the city now, or else they would have to share.

57 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

The pits we are clearly told are a major source of income for the citysy dying economy and have their roots in the cities main religion too!   If former pit fighters want to fight for cash now it was daft of dany to refuse them and the powerful  people who make money off them. The ones that.didnt want  to go near the pits again should have been offerered well paid jobs as the new city watch too.

Nah, that is a monstrous practice, no matter the reasons or justification or history of the practice.

That people raised/living in that culture/society defend or like it, doesn't change that simple fact.

The pit fighters speak up not only for themselves but as pawns in Hizdahr's new enterprise. He, a former slaver who would like to restore slavery and seize power in Meereen by way of marrying Daenerys Targaryen, bought up all the fighting pits and would fill his pockets from the profit the fighting generates ... while the actual pit fighters would get a small salary (and perhaps some price money if they 'win') and risk their very lives in each fight.

There is no defense or justification for that. And the ironic part of that is that some of the very pit fighters who served as Hizdahr's pawns earlier - I do remember Barsena, specifically - end up being brutally butchered in Daznak's Pit.

[astarkchoice]

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nah, that is a monstrous practice, no matter the reasons or justification or history of the practice.

That people raised/living in that culture/society defend or like it, doesn't change that simple fact.

The pit fighters speak up not only for themselves but as pawns in Hizdahr's new enterprise. He, a former slaver who would like to restore slavery and seize power in Meereen by way of marrying Daenerys Targaryen, bought up all the fighting pits and would fill his pockets from the profit the fighting generates ... while the actual pit fighters would get a small salary (and perhaps some price money if they 'win') and risk their very lives in each fight.

There is no defense or justification for that. And the ironic part of that is that some of the very pit fighters who served as Hizdahr's pawns earlier - I do remember Barsena, specifically - end up being brutally butchered in Daznak's Pit.

The same b.s arguments  to a lesser degree are today  made vs boxing+ mma and bear in mind this  is a medieval setting  where people are already dueling over the smallest reasons everywhere from westerosi knights to dothraki  to bravosi waterdancers. The fact is once it stopped being slavery and people  are choosing to earn money and fame or just  watch it instantly takes away any negatives. 

From a cold political viewpoint it further angered  rich powerful people in mereen, it turned off the taps to an important revenue stream for the city, it let masses of trained killers go wasted for the harpy  movement  to snap up  and whatever you think of the ghiscari culture it is  THEIR  culture AND part of their very religion...telling people they have to alter their culture and religion never works out well in modern times let alone in planetos medieval setting!!

Edited March 10 by astarkchoice

[Lord Varys]

37 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

The same b.s arguments  to a lesser degree are today  made vs boxing+ mma and bear in mind this  is a medieval setting  where people are already dueling over the smallest reasons everywhere from westerosi knights to dothraki  to bravosi waterdancers. The fact is once it stopped being slavery and people  are choosing to earn money and fame or just  watch it instantly takes away any negatives.

Duels over honor issues are not rampant in Westeros nor Essos as far as we know, and they are not something you have to enter into, either. The Dothraki might be a tidbit different ... but that is all a moot point as the pit fighting is deadly blood sport profit, and not something people who are concerned about their 'honor' enter into of their own free will.

37 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

From a cold political viewpoint it further angered  rich powerful people in mereen, it turned off the taps to an important revenue stream for the city, it let masses of trained killers go wasted for the harpy  movement  to snap up  and whatever you think of the ghiscari culture it is  THEIR  culture AND part of their very religion...telling people they have to alter their culture and religion never works out well in modern times let alone in planetos medieval setting!!

It works very fine, that is the reason why quite a few cultures and religions are gone these days, and also why people do away with silly practices, like, say, bullfighting.

And, of course, the Ghiscari culture as connected to slavery and slavery practices suck hard. It has to go. The rich people have to find some other ways to generate revenue than watching people kill each other.