Delayed or Cut?

[Hippocras]

Wondering about people's thoughts on the "missing" characters.

1. Daeron was never mentioned in Season 1, though apparently some cut dialogue did discuss him. Wil he be introduced in season 2 in your opinion? Or will he simply be discussed, and then introduced in season 3?

2. Nettles appears to me missing also for now. But I personally doubt she is cut. When you look carefully at her storyline, the only thing she would need to be doing this season is creeping quietly in the dark to feed a dragon. She could wear a hood for that and never be seen. The Battle of the Gullet is likely in this season but it has enough stars and dragonriders without her. He story is not all that affected whether she is there or not. So I predict she will be introduced with more effect in season 3.

[House Cambodia]

David Lightbringer just tweeted a photo from a Spanish source last June which looks for all the world to be Nettles.

[Hippocras]

9 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

David Lightbringer just tweeted a photo from a Spanish source last June which looks for all the world to be Nettles.

posted where?

I am fine either way really. I am very confident she is not cut, but saving some major character introductions to season 3 would make some sense since audiences already sometimes have trouble keeping track of the characters we already have.

This is the unconfirmed rumour for Daeron:

https://wikiofthrones.com/jack-cunningham-nuttall-might-join-house-of-the-dragon-as-daeron-targaryen

[House Cambodia]

Dunno if you're on Twitter, but he retweeted this yesterday

https://twitter.com/PortalHOTD/status/1671631879823343619

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, House Cambodia said:

Dunno if you're on Twitter, but he retweeted this yesterday

https://twitter.com/PortalHOTD/status/1671631879823343619

Yes, that is old news though, and the problem is there is a scene in the Blacks trailer from this week where all of the dragon riders are sitting around a dinner table, but no Nettles. Addam is there, Baela and Jace, Hugh and Ulf. No Nettles.

 

https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_crop,w_2526,h_1420,x_239,y_3/c_fill,w_720,ar_16:9,f_auto,q_auto,g_auto/images/voltaxMediaLibrary/mmsport/385/01hshkn9kwf351xejyx0.jpg

And the old picture doesn't actually fit all that well for Nettles, because she never would have been standing in a line like that to try riding a dragon. She tamed a wild one, secretly, her own way.

Edited March 23 by Hippocras

[House Cambodia]

Oh, okay. Well we'll find out soon enough.

[Lord Varys]

From what we know or I think I heard is that neither Daeron nor Nettles have been cast for season 2. But the story doesn't seem to advance very far. The dragonseeds can claim their dragons over a longer period of time in the show, meaning Nettles might come into the fray only in season 3. Even in the book the Sowing likely wasn't over in a fortnight. It might have never actually ended as, say, would-be dragonriders might have continued to search for the Grey Ghost until his death, etc.

The text even has them bring up new dragonriders at the first Black Council ... and then they apparently don't do anything in that regard for an entire year. Also, it is a great idea to build up Hugh and Ulf and their eventual betrayal slowly. Hugh, especially, wants to be king eventually, a process that slowly developed over time. Condal has said, I think, they will depict the war as something where many people think they have to choose between Rhaenyra and Aegon ... while others think they might make even better kings. One of those clearly seems to be Aemond, especially during his time as Prince Regent (a position he might actually be determined to never give up again), the others would be Hugh and Ulf, eventually. The show might very well portray one of them as Rhaenys' half-brother (Aemon's bastard) while the other could be Daemon's half-brother.

Daeron should definitely be mentioned a lot in season 2 if they don't show him yet. It is odd to postpone his appearance yet again, but it seems they moved the entire Reach fighting plot to season 3, not just Daeron. Season 2 is going to focus on fighting in the Crownlands (Rosby, Stokeworth, Duskendale, Rook's Rest), the Riverlands (Harrenhal, Battle of the Burning Mill, possibly culminating the Battle of the Red Fork), and some additional Vale and North stuff (no fighting there, apparently).

But if they moved all the Reach stuff to season 3 they are not likely to rush the Fall of King's Landing, meaning season 3 might feature Reach stuff up until the Battle of the Honeywine before the Battle of the Gullet and/or the Fall of King's Landing. Then they also have to get to the Ironborn stuff which I don't think they want to cut, either. But they might only get involved after Jason Lannister's death leaves the West defenseless.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Even in the book the Sowing likely wasn't over in a fortnight. It might have never actually ended as, say, would-be dragonriders might have continued to search for the Grey Ghost until his death, etc.

Unlike the other dragonseeds who had a more hands on and direct approach to the dragons, Nettles fed Sheepstealer for enough time for the two of them to create a bond. Honestly if Addam, Hugh and Ulf get their dragons in the back half of season 2, its logical for Nettles to enter the picture at the start of season 3. Plus if the Battle of the Gullet is indeed the big battle that was pushed back to season 3, we don't really need Nettles in season 2, it is totally fine to cast her for season 3. I just hope we have a throw away line like "oh there is this girl that goes visit Sheepstealer".

It seems they are not adapting the Reach storyline this season, so Daeron falls into a similar situation as Nettles. However, I think a Daeron mention this season is necessary and not optional like it was for season 1.

[BlackLightning]

As far as I know, Daeron is confirmed.

[Hippocras]

On 4/3/2024 at 12:59 AM, BlackLightning said:

As far as I know, Daeron is confirmed.

If he is, it is strange he is not part of the casting announcements that have come out. Who plays Alys Rivers, Alyn and Addam, and even a few random Lords - these characters have been announced so why not Daeron?

[BlackLightning]

On 4/4/2024 at 6:34 AM, Hippocras said:

If he is, it is strange he is not part of the casting announcements that have come out. Who plays Alys Rivers, Alyn and Addam, and even a few random Lords - these characters have been announced so why not Daeron?

Idk maybe because Daeron isn't supposed to appear until season 3 or late in season 2

but Daeron was confirmed by the showrunner on more than one occasion during season 1...so it's quite possible that things have changed

[Hippocras]

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Idk maybe because Daeron isn't supposed to appear until season 3 or late in season 2

but Daeron was confirmed by the showrunner on more than one occasion during season 1...so it's quite possible that things have changed

Yes, sorry I thought you meant confirmed for season 2.

I am thinking he will be a season 3 character with mentions this season.

[Lord Varys]

On 3/23/2024 at 11:48 PM, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Unlike the other dragonseeds who had a more hands on and direct approach to the dragons, Nettles fed Sheepstealer for enough time for the two of them to create a bond. Honestly if Addam, Hugh and Ulf get their dragons in the back half of season 2, its logical for Nettles to enter the picture at the start of season 3. Plus if the Battle of the Gullet is indeed the big battle that was pushed back to season 3, we don't really need Nettles in season 2, it is totally fine to cast her for season 3. I just hope we have a throw away line like "oh there is this girl that goes visit Sheepstealer".

While all that is true, the details of the claiming of that particular dragon strike me as less relevent (or easily changed if the writers had decided to race through the plot to the finish line) than the introduction of Nettles the character and her eventual connection/relationship/whatever to Daemon.

In the book Daemon sits on his hands at Harrenhal for months, that is something the show could change and have him fly back to Dragonstone to plan the attack on KL. If that were to coincide with Nettles claiming Sheepstealer we could see them interact prior to the Gullet or before the fall of KL. We can expect the show not to waste lots of episode of them flying together through the Riverlands and spending many evenings/nights at Maidenpool. We should expect some of that, but it would make more sense to give the entire plot time to develop at different general story points.

More importantly, the show also should take time to set up the Hull boys properly and, especially, Hugh and Ulf as their betrayal is something that should have substance in the show since the writers can't wiggle out of giving them depth and character by way of saying they were illiterate and never explained their intentions. It makes sense that Gyldayn's sources would paint baseborn bastards and commoners as the worst kind of people ... but this is not the road the show has to take. Or at least the show can make them more three dimensional. (I'm not saying they should necessarily tone down the monstrosity of some of Hugh and Ulf's crimes at Tumbleton.)

On 3/23/2024 at 11:48 PM, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

It seems they are not adapting the Reach storyline this season, so Daeron falls into a similar situation as Nettles. However, I think a Daeron mention this season is necessary and not optional like it was for season 1.

As we know by now there was at least one cut scene in season 1 referencing Daeron ... and I'd say that mentioning him wasn't optional in season 1, it was mandatory and it is a mistake that they didn't do it as he is an integral and crucial part of the royal family. You could even say it was a mistake to not show him as they could easily have used a child actor who is never going to be used again.

Unless I'm mistaken the ages of the younger children are kind of messed around with, anyway. By episodes 4-5 we only have Aegon and Helaena, and while Aemond may have been conceived in the night of the Viserys-Alicent sex scene we get in episode 4, Aemond, Jace, Luke, Baela, and Rhaena are all much closer in age in the show than they are in the book (which is all a result of Rhaenyra being of the same age as Alicent which meant that less time would pass between Alicent and Rhaenyra being married). That means little Daeron could have easily enough been seen as a toddler in Alicent's chambers in episode 6 or even 7 with his fostering at Oldtown being established in dialogue.

In any case, though, chances that show Daeron is closer in age to Joffrey than to Jacaerys is quite likely.

The chance that Daeron would not be mentioned in season 2 is ludicrous. If they don't reference him, Ormund, Lyonel, Lady Sam and others at all then they could just as well drop the entire Reach plot, as any actual scenes taking place at the Hightower/Oldtown should depict those characters. One imagines that Gwayne Hightower will set up the future Reach characters and plots, starting with establishing that Otto's brother is now dead and there is a new Lord of Oldtown.

It would also make sense to make more of Lady Sam's Black leanings and have the main branch of House Hightower not be overly keen to get drawn into a fully fledged civil war. The decision to move the Reach plot to season 3 would work better if Sam were able to persuade Ormund to try to keep Oldtown out of trouble.

It also strikes one as likely that season 3 will first continue with the Riverlands plot, moving then to the Ironborn plot and having the Reach plot up until the Battle of the Honeywine (including a proper depiction of the Black Reach houses marching against Oldtown) before turning to the Battle of the Gullet and, eventually, the Fall of King's Landing.

What we know of season 2 so far indicates a very slow pace, taking time for character development and people processing events.

[House Cambodia]

It came up in a YouTube today. Daeron is being fostered at Oldtown so has been absent from the scenes in Season 1.  He was supposed to be mentioned in a conversation between Otto and Daemon, but it was cut. Now there's speculation that that brief dialogue will be included in Season 2 but between Daemon and Daeron's older brother who rocks up. So it seems likely we'll have to wait until Season 3 to see him.

[Lord Varys]

24 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

It came up in a YouTube today. Daeron is being fostered at Oldtown so has been absent from the scenes in Season 1.  He was supposed to be mentioned in a conversation between Otto and Daemon, but it was cut. Now there's speculation that that brief dialogue will be included in Season 2 but between Daemon and Daeron's older brother who rocks up. So it seems likely we'll have to wait until Season 3 to see him.

Otto and Aemond and now, perhaps, between Aemond and Alicent's brother Gwayne.

But I'd imagine we are likely also going to get talks between Alicent and Gwayne and general conversations about the Hightowers back in Oldtown. They will have to explain why Daeron did not accompany Gwayne to KL and also why Lord Ormund is right now, apparently, not raising an army to defend Aegon II.

As I said, Ormund being married to Samatha Tarly (a Black supporter) could slow things down in Oldtown. It might also be that Lord Ormund isn't as invested in pushing a Hightower agenda at court as his father was ... or he feels less beholden to Alicent and Otto as his father was. Could also be that Otto wasn't all that popular with his brother's son and heir in Oldtown. He may have been quite frustrated and not exactly the best uncle during his 10+ years a former Hand and landless knight living off his brother's generosity.

[BlackLightning]

On 4/5/2024 at 3:51 PM, Hippocras said:

Yes, sorry I thought you meant confirmed for season 2.

I am thinking he will be a season 3 character with mentions this season.

I think he was confirmed for season 2 during season 1's run

But then they also cut down the number of episodes from 10 to 8 and...then there was the writer's strike. So I think its safe to say that plans changed and that they are taking their time to focus on the assassination attempts and the battles in the Riverlands

[Hippocras]

14 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I think he was confirmed for season 2 during season 1's run

But then they also cut down the number of episodes from 10 to 8 and...then there was the writer's strike. So I think its safe to say that plans changed and that they are taking their time to focus on the assassination attempts and the battles in the Riverlands

I am not so sure about that. He was sort-of confirmed (by GRRM, who is not the final authority on show decisions) to eventually appear and that is all. And with the story for season 2 being somewhat limited, with fewer episodes and stopping sooner in the timeline than we might have expected, Daeron would not have much to do in season 2. 

Another interesting aspect of this which might or might not be relevant is the fact that because the show has been fairly successful, they might be looking longer term at things. And while we know Daeron's story has a finite timeline, any continuation of the show beyond the Dance might need to contend with Daeron pretenders who pop up during Aegon III's reign. So how he is introduced and how his story is told may be relevant eventually to the pretender events and that might be something the show tries to integrate by thinking ahead.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I am not so sure about that. He was sort-of confirmed (by GRRM, who is not the final authority on show decisions) to eventually appear and that is all. And with the story for season 2 being somewhat limited, with fewer episodes and stopping sooner in the timeline than we might have expected, Daeron would not have much to do in season 2. 

That is factually wrong as not merely George confirmed that Daeron is in the show but also Ryan Condal ... and he did it repeatedly.

We also have the final opening credits from the first season which do not only depict Daeron as existing and alive, but also Prince Maelor. That was clearly a creative decision by the people making this show wanting to send the message to the audience that certain people actually do exist within the show universe.

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Another interesting aspect of this which might or might not be relevant is the fact that because the show has been fairly successful, they might be looking longer term at things. And while we know Daeron's story has a finite timeline, any continuation of the show beyond the Dance might need to contend with Daeron pretenders who pop up during Aegon III's reign. So how he is introduced and how his story is told may be relevant eventually to the pretender events and that might be something the show tries to integrate by thinking ahead.

Chances are about zero that this show eventually depicts the fake Daerons George has first actually write about. While it is very likely they turn up during the reign of the Dragonbane, even that is not clear yet. There could also be some aged fake Daeron who pops up during the reign of Baelor the Blessed or the Unworthy.

17 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But then they also cut down the number of episodes from 10 to 8 and...then there was the writer's strike. So I think its safe to say that plans changed and that they are taking their time to focus on the assassination attempts and the battles in the Riverlands

The impression is indeed that they change the chronology in the book to unfold in a different manner, more in steps and not at the same time. I think the idea behind that might be that the war will escalate only slowly, with folks in the Reach (Lord Ormund Hightower included) being not eager to rush into war.

We also have that to a point in the book since Jason Lannister has to be commanded by Aegon II to marshal an army and try to defeat the Black lords in the Riverlands. Chances are that the show will depict the Black Reach lords to marshal armies to attack the Hightowers only later, with that then resulting in Ormund raising his host, leading to the Battle of the Honeywine and the aftermath.

But I'd not be surprised if they start to build up slowly for the Reach plot at the end of season 2 ... like they should do with the Ironborn plot and, it seems, they are doing with the Gullet plot as we are supposedly going to see the Council of the Triarchy in Tyrosh. They could even have Otto going there physically to give him something to do after he is fired.

[Hippocras]

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is factually wrong as not merely George confirmed that Daeron is in the show but also Ryan Condal ... and he did it repeatedly.

 

Again, Daeron was sort-of confirmed for the show, but not as far as I know specifically FOR SEASON 2. My points on this thread had to do with him IMO probably being delayed given that we have no casting news.

 

The only reason I can think of for hiding the casting, if he is indeed in season 2 is if it is someone extremely high profile. Such as Jamie Campbell Bower maybe.

Edited April 10 by Hippocras

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Again, Daeron was sort-of confirmed for the show, but not as far as I know specifically FOR SEASON 2. My points on this thread had to do with him IMO probably being delayed given that we have no casting news.

It is not just that, it is also that there are no spy reports about scenes being shot at Oldtown or a Reach setting ... nor casting rumors or confirmations about characters we would see if we were to see Daeron at Oldtown, meaning Lord Ormund, his wife Lady Sam, his son and heir Lyonel ... all or some of which we would expect to see with Daeron in an Oldtown setting. He would need some people to talk and interact with.

And if we had Daeron paying KL a visit - say, for the funeral of King Viserys I or later Prince Jaehaerys - then we would have good reason to expect that to have been revealed in the spy reports we got so far as they covered a lot of scenes in KL, especially big outside scenes involving many extras and crowds.

6 hours ago, Hippocras said:

The only reason I can think of for hiding the casting, if he is indeed in season 2 is if it is someone extremely high profile. Such as Jamie Campbell Bower maybe.

At this point we should indeed have casting confirmation as we would have for Nettles. Both Daeron and Nettles are crucial characters people want to see and ask about, and it makes little sense that they tell us that they cast the other dragonseeds and (so far) tertiary characters like Ser Alfred Broom ... but not Daeron and Nettles.