Burned Men & Boltons - echoes of fire/skinchanging magic?

[Sandy Clegg]

Many have speculated that the Bolton's skinning practices - their flayed man sigil and preferred torture methods etc. - could be cultural echoes, or remnants, of more ancient skinchanging practises. That they are a present-day literal embodiment of a more mystical custom of the past.  So might the Burned Men mountain clan likewise be an echo of certain Targaryen fire magic rituals, possibly related to the dragon-bonding ritual?

Customs
Burned Men derive their name from their coming-of-age ceremony, in which they mutilate themselves by burning off a body part of their choosing, usually a finger or nipple. The more important the body part burned, the more prestige the warrior gains. They are feared by the other clans because of this practice. Red hands are war chiefs of the Burned Men.

History
The Burned Men are seemingly an offshoot of the Painted Dogs that branched off in the years after the Dance of the Dragons. They were said to have worshiped a fire-witch, sending their boys to bring her gifts and risk the flames of her dragon to prove their manhood.[1] Gyldayn suggests this was Nettles and Sheepstealer.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Burned_Men

Sure, they might simply be emulating certain 'fire magic' rituals - such as the one Varys speaks of when he lost his manhood to the fires. But their origin, bound up in Nettles and Sheepstealer, would seem to suggest these rituals may be remnants of some ritual involving dragons specifically.

What do you think? Are the Boltons and the Burned Men meant to serve a similar function, just in terms of these 'echoes of ritual' they embody? Are there any other groups/clans/peoples in the world of ASOIAF whose customs likewise contain 'echoes' of magical rituals?

[Evolett]

On 3/25/2024 at 12:11 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

Sure, they might simply be emulating certain 'fire magic' rituals - such as the one Varys speaks of when he lost his manhood to the fires. But their origin, bound up in Nettles and Sheepstealer, would seem to suggest these rituals may be remnants of some ritual involving dragons specifically.

Waking dragons from stone aside, there are no current Targ fire-rituals connected to their dragons that come to mind. There's also another distiction: the Burned Men regard the fire-witch as one might a goddess - they worship her, desiring to prove their worth by this method of self-mortification. If there's an echo, I lean towards the red priests, Moqorro in particular, his skin appearing as if burned:

Quote

Blacker than coal, blacker than jet, blacker than a raven’s wing. Burned, Victarion thought, like a man who has been roasted in the flames until his flesh chars and crisps and falls smoking from his bones. The fires that had charred him still danced across his cheeks and forehead, where his eyes peered out from amongst a mask of frozen flames.

It wouldn't surprise me if Moqorro underwent some extreme fire-ritual to prove himself to R'hillor. It may be his considerable powers are a result of this self-sacrifice. We've also seen he has the ability to heal severe wounds (as does Thoros), so recovering from such an ordeal is within the realm of possibility. He is literally a "Burned Man. And a "dragon" is part of this scenario too - his staff:

Quote

His iron staff was as tall as he was and crowned with a dragon’s head; when he stamped its butt upon the deck, the dragon’s maw spat crackling green flame.

 

We have no information on the Red God's origins. Could have originated in Old Valyria, or perhaps the faith is older still. Perhaps Sheepstealer and Nettles demonstrate how an ancient originally managed to tame a wild dragon. This would have been a remarkable feat and it's entirely possible that such a person may have come to be revered as a great lord or even a god. Think also of Varamyr's position amongst the freefolk:

Quote

Before Mance, Varamyr Sixskins had been a lord of sorts. He lived alone in a hall of moss and mud and hewn logs that had once been Haggon’s, attended by his beasts. A dozen villages did him homage in bread and salt and cider, offering him fruit from their orchards and vegetables from their gardens.

 

Varamyr's position is very similar to the fabled fire-witch's. Living remotely, with people bringing gifts and paying homeage. 

So, perhaps the Burned Men who are so desireous of burning off their body parts to impress their very own fire priestess tell us something about the origins of R'hllorism.

 

Edited March 27 by Evolett

[Sandy Clegg]

6 hours ago, Evolett said:

We have no information on the Red God's origins. Could have originated in Old Valyria, or perhaps the faith is older still. Perhaps Sheepstealer and Nettles demonstrate how an ancient originally managed to tame a wild dragon. This would have been a remarkable feat and it's entirely possible that such a person may have come to be revered as a great lord or even a god. Think also of Varamyr's position amongst the freefolk:

Quote

Yes, I'm wondering too. It may be that GRRM is using the Burned Men's origins to make us draw a connection between R'hllorism and dragon taming. If so, there's probably not much more to it than being a vague clue.

But I do like the motif of 'the greater the part burned, their greater one's status'.  To me, this recalls the way Dragonbinder horn operates. The blower of the horn literally has their heart burned away, and in return a dragon's 'loyalty' is earned.

Edited March 27 by Sandy Clegg

[Evolett]

1 hour ago, Sandy Clegg said:

But I do like the motif of 'the greater the part burned, their greater one's status'.  To me, this recalls the way Dragonbinder horn operates. The blower of the horn literally has their heart burned away, and in return a dragon's 'loyalty' is earned.

Where fire-magic is concerned, it does make sense to be able to attain special powers by practicing some form of self-sacrifce involving fire / burning. I think we are meant to make a connection between the Odin myth and Timett sacrificing an eye to gain prestige. Take that further to one-eyed Bloodraven who's basically sacrificed his entire body to the weirwood in order to reap the benefits of being able to tap into the memories of the trees. 

  Other examples besides the Burned Men and Dragonbinder also hint at this. Take Daenerys for example:

Quote

She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

In a variation on the theme, she goes through a spiritual cleansing and strengthening process. Prior to this she suffered so much during her first weeks with the Dothraki that the thought of killing herself crossed her mind. The dragon dream, the dragon's fires, renew her entire being - she feels strong and fierce - and from that day on is able to take charge of her fate. Her power and prestige increase steadily from this day onward. 

This is also why I suspect Moqorro to have acquired his powers through a more literal and actual burning ritual. 

Melisandre's experience also echos Dany's fiery dream tempering:

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The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover’s hand.

Mel experiences a transformation through fire, though no actual burning takes place. In this case she even has shimmers of heat tracing patterns on the outside, her skin, as if to emulate an external burning process. Mel does regard herself as one of the most accomplished seers / priestesses of her order. Perhaps the dream is memory of a fire-ritual she had to go through in order to claim those powers. She does speak of the pain involved in her learning process. 

Victarion's hand, also black and burned, is much stronger after the red priest's healing treatment. 

So perhaps the point is that dragon fire in particular (or the magical fire of a red priest) has the ability to elevate the status, resilience, magical prowess etc. of those willing to sacrifice a part of themselves to it. 

 

Edited March 27 by Evolett

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

13 hours ago, Evolett said:

 

It wouldn't surprise me if Moqorro underwent some extreme fire-ritual to prove himself to R'hillor. It may be his considerable powers are a result of this self-sacrifice. We've also seen he has the ability to heal severe wounds (as does Thoros), so recovering from such an ordeal is within the realm of possibility. He is literally a "Burned Man. And a "dragon" is part of this scenario too - his staff:

 

I bet its like when drowned men have water poured into their lungs, if their is any this type of ritual for fire priests.

mel certainly seems the type to have had fire breathed into her lungs

so instead of drowned me you get burned men

jon has a burned hand, is he a burned man then?

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

On 3/25/2024 at 7:11 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

Sure, they might simply be emulating certain 'fire magic' rituals - such as the one Varys speaks of when he lost his manhood to the fires. But their origin, bound up in Nettles and Sheepstealer, would seem to suggest these rituals may be remnants of some ritual involving dragons specifically.

it feels like just a test of courage

but i dont hate the idea of some fire magic reason. nettels hung out a dragon stone and with her prince/dad/husband fora while. I want to think that its a hint that nettles draogn is still around in secret. maybe its one of the stone dragons waiting to be woken up, like the cannibal on skaggos (meaning stone?)

[Mourning Star]

6 hours ago, Evolett said:

Take that further to one-eyed Bloodraven who's basically sacrificed his entire body to the weirwood in order to reap the benefits of being able to tap into the memories of the trees. 

The Mother marked Lord Rivers on the day that he was born, and Bittersteel marked him once again upon the Redgrass Field.

I would point out that for a literary parallel, Bloodraven has his wine colored raven birth mark, and lost his eye to the sword Blackfyre.

The rebellion ended at the Redgrass Field, nigh on a year later. Some have written of the boldness of the men who fought with Daemon, and others of their treason. But for all their valor in the field and their enmity against Daeron, theirs was a lost cause. Daemon and his eldest sons, Aegon and Aemon, were brought down beneath the withering fall of arrows sent by Brynden Rivers and his private guards, the Raven's Teeth. This was followed by Bittersteel's mad charge, with Blackfyre in his hand, as he attempted to rally Daemon's forces. Meeting with Bloodraven in the midst of the charge, a mighty duel ensued, which left Bloodraven blinded in one eye and sent Bittersteel fleeing.

Jon meanwhile was also marked once by a bird:

Faint scars still marked Jon's cheek, where an eagle had once tried to rip his eye out. 

And once by fire:

He had burned himself more badly than he knew throwing the flaming drapes, and his right hand was swathed in silk halfway to the elbow. At the time he'd felt nothing; the agony had come after. His cracked red skin oozed fluid, and fearsome blood blisters rose between his fingers, big as roaches. "The maester says I'll have scars, but otherwise the hand should be as good as it was before."
"A scarred hand is nothing. On the Wall, you'll be wearing gloves often as not."

I would also point out that when we are speculating about the burned men and the priests of R'hloo, it may be that the burning is a test, and while being scarred might show bravery, it may not be passing the test.

He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon.

[Evolett]

4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I would point out that for a literary parallel, Bloodraven has his wine colored raven birth mark, and lost his eye to the sword Blackfyre.

Nice, nice, I had not thought of him losing his eye to Blackfyre. That does fit the pattern, especially since Valyrian Steel swords are said to have been forged in dragonfire. 

 

4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I would also point out that when we are speculating about the burned men and the priests of R'hloo, it may be that the burning is a test, and while being scarred might show bravery, it may not be passing the test.

He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon.

Yes and no. I suppose it depends on the purpose of the test. If the ritual is extreme, say like the drownings the Damphair carries out, then passing or failing means surviving or dying respectively. If the bar is set that high then Dany definitely passed her "test" on Drogo's pyre when she emerged unburnt. Viserys fails his treatment, so did Aerion Brightflame. 

Jon is only one of several characters marked by burns and none of these were voluntary affairs or carried out in form of a ritual (except Victarion maybe). In the absence of a proper ritual, these burnings occur at some point in time because the person in question needs to be marked by flame. I've often wondered what this might mean. Perhaps these characters need  to be "kissed by fire" for a purpose. I'm thinking of Sandor, Victarion, Merret Frey, Quentyn and Jorah (these last two were branded). One could argue that the Hound and Merret failed their respective tests, both tormented in different ways after the experience. Quentyn does not survive. 

One thought I have is that the burning may render the person immune to being body-snatched / skinchanged. We've seen the effect fiery magic had on Varamyr - driving him out of the eagle etc. Of the characters in question, this might apply to Jon and Victarion, the burns acting as a means of protection. Any other ideas?

 

[kissdbyfire]

On 3/25/2024 at 8:11 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

Many have speculated that the Bolton's skinning practices - their flayed man sigil and preferred torture methods etc. - could be cultural echoes, or remnants, of more ancient skinchanging practises. That they are a present-day literal embodiment of a more mystical custom of the past.

The Boltons suffer from what maester Freud would call “skinchanger envy”. 

 

[Mourning Star]

31 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Yes and no. I suppose it depends on the purpose of the test. If the ritual is extreme, say like the drownings the Damphair carries out, then passing or failing means surviving or dying respectively. If the bar is set that high then Dany definitely passed her "test" on Drogo's pyre when she emerged unburnt. Viserys fails his treatment, so did Aerion Brightflame. 

Jon is only one of several characters marked by burns and none of these were voluntary affairs or carried out in form of a ritual (except Victarion maybe). In the absence of a proper ritual, these burnings occur at some point in time because the person in question needs to be marked by flame. I've often wondered what this might mean. Perhaps these characters need  to be "kissed by fire" for a purpose. I'm thinking of Sandor, Victarion, Merret Frey, Quentyn and Jorah (these last two were branded). One could argue that the Hound and Merret failed their respective tests, both tormented in different ways after the experience. Quentyn does not survive. 

One thought I have is that the burning may render the person immune to being body-snatched / skinchanged. We've seen the effect fiery magic had on Varamyr - driving him out of the eagle etc. Of the characters in question, this might apply to Jon and Victarion, the burns acting as a means of protection. Any other ideas?

I agree with the yes and no.

A trial can be meaningful and part of a tradition without everyone "passing", and without being lethal.

For instance, the "drowned men" were very briefly drowned and resuscitated, fulfilling the "trial". But we also read of Patchface, who much more literally drowned but lived again.

I'd also point to the Maester tradition of spending a night trying to light a glass candle. Survival and entry into the order aren't at stake, but one still has to imagine it comes from a tradition of testing who could use the candle.

Just my thoughts!

[Sandy Clegg]

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

For instance, the "drowned men" were very briefly drowned and resuscitated, fulfilling the "trial". But we also read of Patchface, who much more literally drowned but lived again.

Don't know why I didn't think of this before, but of course Patchface embodies a more magical version of 'life after drowning' than than the echo of it performed on the Iron Islands. He was gone under the water for days, and returns as a prophet, but in a much more GRRM-style sense of the word. A raving imbecile who likely has no idea of the meaning of what he's saying, but whose prophecies are perhaps more likely to be accurate because of it.

What he gains in foresight, he loses in the mental faculties to be able to decipher any of it. He pays a cost.

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

On 3/28/2024 at 5:57 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

Don't know why I didn't think of this before, but of course Patchface embodies a more magical version of 'life after drowning' than than the echo of it performed on the Iron Islands. He was gone under the water for days, and returns as a prophet, but in a much more GRRM-style sense of the word. A raving imbecile who likely has no idea of the meaning of what he's saying, but whose prophecies are perhaps more likely to be accurate because of it.

What he gains in foresight, he loses in the mental faculties to be able to decipher any of it. He pays a cost.

seems like their is always a cost, and near death, for prophecy. Bran his legs, Jojen his sicklyness, patchface his drowning. magic brought him back, but couldn't fix his brain damage any more than bloodraven bran's legs.