R. Scott Bakker: What am I missing?

[starfall]

I've just finished the trilogy. Before I proffer my own opinions, I'll have to say that it's amazing how different people across this thread have formed different opinions of Kellhus. It's been a while since I've come across any character in literature (or what little of it I can claim to have read) who's capable of evoking such diverse emotions. Some guys around here don't get the books, some don't like Kellhus, some accept him for what he is, and some admire him even.

Wow.

Anyways, I think Kellhus is brilliantly conceived. Not since Tyrion have I so totally admired a guy. There's something particularly appealing (imho) in the possibility that humans can condition themselves, over thousands of years if need be, into superbeings. That's probably why Batman is my favourite superhero, and why I'm all for cloning and artificial intelligence.

Apart from Kellhus, I don't like the characters too much. Much as Bakker tries to shake off the Tolkienian shadow, he inevitably slips into familiar fantastic tropes (Gorgoroth? Orc? C'mon. I can't believe they are merely dedications.) However, I find the philosophical discourses superb. I'd encourage everyone to merely read the start of every chapter. You may not agree with anything Bakker says. But he's done an excellent job (at least imho, unlike a certain other fantasy-writer-who's-not-a-fantasy-writer.)

I'm looking forward to the next series. I'm not rooting for Kellhus. In fact, I'll be more pleased if he kicks the bucket sometime in the series. It will be interesting to see how perfection is destroyed.

-Star

[Vintertroll]

I just read Prince of Nothing, and I have to say, either my english is far worse than I thought, or else that book was the most confusing thing I ever read. I think I'd have to read it again to get anything out of it (too bad I'm too lazy for that). Too many names at once for my defected memory! I guess it all fucked up when I stopped trying to remember all the names and just read it instead. Suddenly I had read 100 pages and didn't know what they were talking about. I just couldn't get the entire picture of it, it was all a mess of strange-sounding names and obscene places in my head until I didn't know who was fighting who. Argh, I hate when that happens! And as politics is such an important part of that book, that sort of ruined it for me. Usually I love intrigues and plot-making, but this book just didn't work for me either. Glad I'm not the only one.

I liked the parts with the prostitute, though.

[Besselfunction]

I had problems distinguishing the different factions during the big battles, especially the later ones in "The Warrior Prophet". There were suddenly ten different Fanim grandees from countries I've never heard of appearing out of nowhere, charging, being opposed by minor Earls from Inrithi-Lands. Didn't really matter though, in the end Saubon/Gotheylk(sp?)/Khellus/Whoever came and saved the day. The more interesting dynamics between characters were easier to catch though.

[Shryke]

Most of the random Grandees are for flavour. You don't need to know them, since alot of them never appeared before or after. It just makes the world feel more real when these guys have actual names, and banners and seem to have reputations and the like. The same with most of the Inrithi lords. Although some of them ARE important.

There's that one guy who dies right before the last battle at Shimeh that's been an important background character for most of the later half of the series. He's the guy runing around ahead of the army sacking and pillaging. I actually felt kinda sad when he died. You never see him say a single thing, or appear in a scene really, but there's always descriptions of the shit he's up to. It's kind of a neat character thing that makes the world feel much more real IMO.

[Snowbeat]

Just got into Chapter 1. Dang, this Bakker guy sure can write!

[A Time for Wolves]

Well, that's certainly true - the first book moves slowly and really has no likable characters. The unlikable characters never really changes, though Acha becomes a lot more sympathetic and interesting. I'd say it this way - if you like reading about fascinating flawed characters to downright evil ones, Bakker does well. If you don't, you'll not like this.

He's also very...bad about having even remotely decent female characters. If that's a problem, you won't like it either. It did turn me off, I will admit, but not to the degree that I couldn't read it any more.

The second book picks up the pace considerably; there are some massively huge battles and events that happen.

Exactly my problem with TDTCB when I tried reading it last year - Esmenet was bland and Serwe made me livid. In fact, I think it was mainly because of Serwe that I couldn't bring myself to finish the first book. It's not because she's a horrible selfish, shallow, whining bitch (although she is), but because none of her flaws seem to be acknowledged, and she keeps contradicting herself ("Serwe is nothing. Serwe is nothing. *sniff sniff*" - some pages later - "I know why Kellhus and I should be together. Kellhus is a god and I'm a beauty and only a god deserves me.") I hate her because she doesn't seem to have a purpose, she's absolutely awful, and nobody calls her on it. I don't have a problem with bitchy female characters, I have a problem with Mary Sues. For example, the hate I feel for Cersei is very different from the hate I feel for Serwe. Cersei is fleshed out, a well-rounded, well-developed character with believable motives and traits. Serwe is badly written, simple as that, and that's why I can't stand her.

On the other hand, I liked Akka very much, and Cnaiur was great. Kellhus was impossible to understand or relate to, but since that was probably the point, I didn't worry too much about it. Plus, Cnaiur and Kellhus had such a brilliant chemistry. And the threat of the Consult was awesome. I actually didn't find the plot to be slow except for the very first bit with Kellhus wandering through the woods. After that I enjoyed it, until Serwe appeared and everything went to pot.

[Davies]

Apart from Kellhus, I don't like the characters too much. Much as Bakker tries to shake off the Tolkienian shadow, he inevitably slips into familiar fantastic tropes (Gorgoroth? Orc? C'mon. I can't believe they are merely dedications.)

what's Gorgoroth? if you mean Golgotterath, that's an ancient spaceship. not so Tolkien like, eh? and if i remember correctly, there are no Orcs either.

[Kalbear]

Golgotterath isn't actually the spaceship - it's the seat of power of the Consult. The spaceship is inside Golgotterath. Bakker purposely chose words and linguistics that were close to certain ethos for that reason; if you don't like things from Christian history, it's going to bug. That's why both Tolkien and Bakker have similar sounding words, btw -they both borrow from similar places.

Sranc == orcs. Sranc behave a bit differently though and are a bit more oddly used than orcs, but same principle. There are demons that are straight out of Balrogs though. Still, I didn't think this was particularly a bad trait given that the story deviates so greatly from most other fantasy arcs.

[A Time for Wolves]

I thought the Sranc sounded a bit dog-like, actually.

[Mackaxx]

Sranc == orcs. Sranc behave a bit differently though and are a bit more oddly used than orcs, but same principle. There are demons that are straight out of Balrogs though. Still, I didn't think this was particularly a bad trait given that the story deviates so greatly from most other fantasy arcs.

They are apparently have strikingly beautiful faces too, a point which was made in early in the first book.

[Deornoth]

'The Thousandfold Thought' is due out in mass market paperback very soon (over here in England) and I've just reviewed it for my blog. I already own my own copy so am giving away the review copy that Orbit sent me. Have a click Here if you want it!

Cheers

[Happy Ent]

Serwe is badly written, simple as that, and that's why I can't stand her.

Interesting. Not being able to stand her is all-right, I guess. She is, after all, a really dumb bimbo. But badly written? I think she is exactly right. I've never been inside the head of a stunning, dim-witted sex-slave whose been through more Hell than I'd wish my worst enemy and then falls in love with the Messiah. But her description totally convinces me. I've never before seen such a character in all the books I've read; I think she's one of the bravest decisions on Bakker, and her realisation is amazing.

What I really like about Bakker is that the he has a crazy, murderous Lvl. 24 Barbarian who's actually bat-shit crazy, has a whore with a heart of gold who is actually a wanton slut, and a simple, stunning sex slave who is actually dumb. And each of them he describes with insight and loyalty. Bravo, I say.

[Davies]

What I really like about Bakker is that the he has a crazy, murderous Lvl. 24 Barbarian who's actually bat-shit crazy, has a whore with a heart of gold who is actually a wanton slut, and a simple, stunning sex slave who is actually dumb. And each of them he describes with insight and loyalty. Bravo, I say.

very well said. i couldn't agree more. that's what i like about Bakker, he doesn't even try to make his characters likeable. he just...describes than as flawed as they are. without any excuses and in a very convincing manner.

[Happy Ent]

Sranc == orcs. Sranc behave a bit differently though and are a bit more oddly used than orcs, but same principle. There are demons that are straight out of Balrogs though.

Well... the Silmarillion Balrogs are the Bashrag. Elite infantry, stronger and better than Sranc.

But Tolkien changed is mind about Balrogs and Durin's Bane is something quite different. In Bakkerworld he would indeed be a spirit from the Outside.

[Shryke]

Sranc = foot soldiers of their army. So sorta like Orcs, in purpose at least. In looks, they pale, with dog-like barrel chests and long arms. Think like a human with a much deeper chest and slightly longer arms that kind of lopes along the ground. And eerily beautiful faces. The faces are like those of Non-men, since the scranc were in many ways made in mockery of them (the last bit is the conclusion that was reached over on ThreeSeas, can't remember if the author confirmed it or not).

Bashrag I'd say are closer to trolls (unless I don't underestand trolls properly, been awhile since LOTR). Huge and immensely strong.

As for Serwe, that I can't even understand. She's annoying as hell, sure. But she's not anything close to badly written. She'd be an annoying person to meet in real life, that's why she's annoying to read about. She's a sex slave whose had all her sense of self-worth beaten out of her. Then along comes this guy who convinces her he's a god, and says he loves her. So she latches on to him. Because her entire sense of who she is is now tied up in him.

And I agree Happy Ent, I like the fact that he doesn't sugarcoat any of his characters, and tends to take what look from a distance like generic, genre Stereotypes and makes them different and real.

And I love Cnauir. He's the Savage Barbarian. Who also happens to be compltetly bat-shit fucking insane. And incredibly perceptive and intelligent on top of that.

[Kalbear]

Yeah, I still don't like describing Esmi as a wanton slut, both from the sexist attitudes it implies and the actual behavior that she exhibited. Why would you call her that - because she had sex with Kellhus after Akka died? Because she was still in love with Akka after being with Kellhus?

Or because she was a whore who wasn't crushed by the nature of her profession?

One of the things that does bother me a lot about Bakker is that his female characters are entirely passive and fairly weak in the power of the world. We don't have queens, we don't have female warriors, we don't have any of that. We have a camp slave and a camp whore. It's more than a bit misogynistic.

[Calibandar]

Bashrag I'd say are closer to trolls (unless I don't underestand trolls properly, been awhile since LOTR). Huge and immensely strong.

Certainly there are some parallels between Bakker's creatures and Tolkien, he freely admits that this is the case so whether or not they are similar is a moot point. Srancs are his version of Orcs, mostly cannon fodder but still very dangerous in packs. Plus they are wickedly fast so unless you own a good horse you can't even outrun them ( I believe this was mentioned). But their features are quite different from a D&D Orc, even if the purpose they serve is the same.

Bashrags have huge thick legs, nearly unbreakable, and a very tough structure. But they are indeed much more like trolls than like Balrogs, who seem to be much more powerful.

The Nonmen are like the Elves, except that they have notable differences. The No-God can be modelled on Morgoth Bauglir. The Consult are the Sauron/Saruman like lieutenant. etc.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Yeah, I still don't like describing Esmi as a wanton slut, both from the sexist attitudes it implies and the actual behavior that she exhibited. Why would you call her that - because she had sex with Kellhus after Akka died? Because she was still in love with Akka after being with Kellhus?

Or because she was a whore who wasn't crushed by the nature of her profession?

One of the things that does bother me a lot about Bakker is that his female characters are entirely passive and fairly weak in the power of the world. We don't have queens, we don't have female warriors, we don't have any of that. We have a camp slave and a camp whore. It's more than a bit misogynistic.

Well it is a fairly harsh, bitterly unfair, misogynistic world in Earwe. Except eventually one woman becomes the right hand and at times voice of the Warrior-Prophet and wife-concubine of the Aspect Emperor. Also keep in mind that Bakker may introduce a female Dunyain in the next set of books, which may satisify your warrior-woman.

[Kalbear]

Making the world super harsh and misogynistic to justify weak female characters isn't any better, MFC.

[Spring Bass]

Yeah, I still don't like describing Esmi as a wanton slut, both from the sexist attitudes it implies and the actual behavior that she exhibited. Why would you call her that - because she had sex with Kellhus after Akka died? Because she was still in love with Akka after being with Kellhus?

I certainly wouldn't call her a wanton slut. She slept with Kellhus through a combination of him psychologically manipulating her to that position, and her thinking that Akka is dead; when she finds out that Akka is alive, she feels real bad about this situation, but there's not much she can do.

Or because she was a whore who wasn't crushed by the nature of her profession?

That's what I liked the most about Esmi. She's actually a good example of how repressive Bakker's society is towards low-caste women; she's a very intelligent women, and very beautiful. Had she been born higher-caste, or in a more equal society, it would be easy to see her gaining position and power.

One of the things that does bother me a lot about Bakker is that his female characters are entirely passive and fairly weak in the power of the world. We don't have queens, we don't have female warriors, we don't have any of that. We have a camp slave and a camp whore. It's more than a bit misogynistic.

That's not entirely fair. Keep in mind that this is modelled on the Classical Mediterranean World, which was very misogynistic, so you aren't going to see female warriors. We do have a Queen in the form of Ikurei Xerxes (I hope that's spelled right)'s mother. Plus, I don't know why people think his female characters are entirely passive. Esmi leaves the city she's lived in her entire life, along with her place, to cross territory unknown to her, to tell Akka about the Consult Synthese. That's hardly passive.

SPOILER: TTT spoiler

Not to mention that once she becomes Kellhus's 'wife', she takes a very active position managing his intelligence network; did any forget the segment where she shows up Eleazaras and effectively forces him to apologize?

Serwe is a bit of a brat, until you remember that she's been basically screwed over her entire 'adult' life. Even worse, up until she was about 13 or 14, she lived a blissful, happy life as the daughter of an equivalent to a minor nobleman in Galeoth, then had that brutally taken away from her.