R. Scott Bakker: What am I missing?

[Spectralist]

It's hard to focus on any other character though, even when they arent dealing directly with kellhus they are thinking about him, i doubt you can go more then a couple paragraphs without him being mentioned. At least not in the 2cnd and 3rd book. Kellhus is the focus of the story so far, force of nature or human being if he annoys the hell out of you the books are going to as well.

[aeu]

SPOILER: TTT

He's faced some Cishaurim, some skinspies, and stabbed (but not killed) his blind father.

SPOILER: TTT

Wait, his father is not dead? I completely missed that.

Now, the Inchoroi are Doomed to Eternal Torture because they are sinners. Ãœbersinners. By authorial fiat, the only way do save your soul from eternal damnation is to "close the world" from the outside. Apparently, you need to bring the number of souls on the planet down below some critical threshold to do that.

That's something I cannot wrap my mind around. How can you possibly "close the world"? Are we to accept that there are Gods, they created all these creatures with souls, they were going to judge them in the end, but if they see that the total number of souls (at the end of thousands, if not millions of years) is not "enough", they will decide not to judge those? That makes no sense to me. None of this "closing the world to accept damnation" business does.

A bigger problem is that they are all Doomed to Eternal Torture. Why? They are sinners.

What exactly are the Dunyain doing so that we are sure they will be damned?

[unJon]

SPOILER: End of TTT

What possibly effect can Akka have on the Consult, not to mention on Kellhus? He's one sorcerer. He's helpless.

SPOILER: meh

Meh, is what you deserve for that straw man argument. Seswhatever was one sorcerer also. How the heck do any of us know what 1 lonely sorcerer can do against the Consult until we read the books? There is a lot of foreshadowing that indicates that Akka will do a lot.

SPOILER: TTT

The official line is wrong, though. Kellhus figures that out in TTT. In fact, sorcerers are more holy than other people. Kellhus would have no problem on that account. And the gods choosing him as their prophet does rather hint that they're okay with him.

SPOILER: TTT Religion

My understanding is that what is right or true is just whatever a critical amount of people in the world believe. If there's not a critical amount that believes in the afterlife then there isn't one and the Inchoroi win. If enough believe that sorcerers are damned then they are damned. If Kellhus convinces enough people that they are not damned then they are not damned. So it's not that the 'official' line is wrong. It's that whatever the official line is, is always correct. Get it?

[unJon]

SPOILER: TTT

Wait, his father is not dead? I completely missed that.

SPOILER: TTT

He's dead. Kal just means that Cnaiur kills him and not Kellhus

[Shryke]

SPOILER: TTT

Wait, his father is not dead? I completely missed that.

SPOILER: TTT

He's very much dead. But it's Cnaiur, not Kelhus who kills him. Kelhus just knifes him in the gut and leaves him at the mercy of Cnaiur

That's something I cannot wrap my mind around. How can you possibly "close the world"? Are we to accept that there are Gods, they created all these creatures with souls, they were going to judge them in the end, but if they see that the total number of souls (at the end of thousands, if not millions of years) is not "enough", they will decide not to judge those? That makes no sense to me. None of this "closing the world to accept damnation" business does.

Souls are the connection between the Outside and the World. It's through people, through things with souls, that the god's effect the world. Souls are like pinpricks in the fabric of reality where the outside shines through. By wiping out all life that has a soul (that's men, non-men and Inchoroi only fyi), or apparently enough of it, one can close off the world so that the god's have no effect on the world. And therefore they cannot take your soul after you die and you fall into oblivion, instead of burning in hell for all eternity for your sins.

What exactly are the Dunyain doing so that we are sure they will be damned?

Well, for one, all the children born that don't measure up to their expectations are simply killed or else subjected to experimentation. You remember those people with their faces pealed off so that the Dunyain could learn to read peoples thoughts and emotions through their faces? That's where they came from. And god knows what else they do down there.

[Arakasi]

I think there's too much focus on kellhus and his abilities going on here... kellhus is more a force of nature than a real chraracter; Akka is the protagonist, and if you're looking for the character that Bakker has invested his own ideas in, Akka is your man, not Kellhus. To focus on Kellhus and his superhuman, seemingly invincible, abilities, is to miss the point; he is a representation of what a perfect human might be like, what such a man might be capable of... not a representation of a real man, not someone we reasonably relate to, nor even desire to be like. Akka is the main character because he is the one we can reasonably relate to, because he is a human caught in a world beyond his capacity to comprehend or control, just like us...

You can't help but focus on Kelhus, especially after he cuckolds Akka in book 2. I still root for Akka of course (and hope in the end he will succeed), but the books are more about Kelhus than they are about Akka. Akka is the viewpoint that we see Kelhus through. And although he does some important things, Kelhus is clearly the lead man here. I don't care that Bakker has invested himself in Akka (which I'm not sure I believe anyway) it's that I hate Kelhus and what he does to the story.

[Relic]

Souls are the connection between the Outside and the World. It's through people, through things with souls, that the god's effect the world. Souls are like pinpricks in the fabric of reality where the outside shines through. By wiping out all life that has a soul (that's men, non-men and Inchoroi only fyi), or apparently enough of it, one can close off the world so that the god's have no effect on the world. And therefore they cannot take your soul after you die and you fall into oblivion, instead of burning in hell for all eternity for your sins.

where are you getting that from? strictly from the books or from outside sources?

[Errant Bard]

Isn't that what the Inchoroi synthese tells Khellus? Or was it the non-man Prince in Akka's dream? I believe it's in the books.

About Khellus, I don't believe he's perfect. He's splendidly trained and very competent, but he isn't in total control. He couldn't control Cnaiur, he couldn't control Akka, his schemes come to bite him in the rear after a time when the victims realise who he is, and in the end, he's as much driven by what comes after as anyone else. At the end of TTT, he's a megalomaniac dictator, with formidables enemies, and more to come with the more people he'll not be in direct contact with but would still attempt to control.

The whole prince of nothing trilogy for me could be summed up with one question, that khellus symbolizes: is it worth it? Worth it to surrender your critical thinking, your freedom of choice and thoughts in exchange for a salvation you could probably have achieved by yourself? Khellus indeed seems like the "lesser evil", but who decreed that there was only a choice between him and the Consult?

Khellus reminds me of Leto II, I wonder who will be his Duncan Idaho.

[Shryke]

where are you getting that from? strictly from the books or from outside sources?

It's in the books. Achamian gives a description of the soul to Kelhus using pinpricks in a piece of paper as an analogy if I remember correctly.

This is why the Consult uses/created/summoned/whatever the No-God. On some level he prevents the creation of souls. That's why all children were born dead (stillborn) while the No-God existed. They grew and were born, but they had no souls, so their bodies were dead.

Tie this in with the No-God high level of control over the scranc and other inchoroi constructs (all of which are soulless creations of the Techne, barring the fluke Skin Spy in the Mandate) and also appearing to have no voice of his own, and only speaking threw the Scranc, and you've got an intruiging ... something. I mean, we have no idea what the hell this thing even is. And neither does it, as all it seems to do is ask Kelhus "What am I? What do you see?".

[Happy Ent]

Random points: Kellhus has fewer and fewer POVs throughout the trilogy. In the beginning, Bakker feels it necessary to give us his POV now and then so that we understand the concept of Kellhus. But in TTT there are very few Kellhus POVs left.

This is not an adventure story. We aren't following a hero who faces individual opponents, like Gandalf faced the Balrog or Sigurd faces Fafner. The danger is a gazillion Sranc led by alien superbeings and a coven of Gnosis-weilding sorcerers. This danger is to mankind; a standard fantasy trope.

Bakker does two things: (1) he gives a philosophical/theological reason for the Bad Guys to actually want to kill us all. (2) he gives us a invincible Gandalf/Jesus/Muad-dib/Kal-el on our side, but for once he actually constructs a plausible origin for this Messiah. Without resorting to Manwë or Abraham's God or Krypton. Bakker uses eugenics, out of Herbert's play-book.

I like both these details. It's good world-building, instead of resorting to authorial fiat. Two points for Bakker already. But where he really shines is that he stays within the logic of his creation of Kellhus. Kellhus is not Gandalf or Jesus. He actually doesn't give a damn. (At least in the beginning. I want to repeat that Kellhus, much to his own surprise, is not such a good Dûnyain after all. His conditioning breaks, and he feels—though does not act on—compassion. And at the end, when it actually comes down to ethics, he makes the right decision.) Kellhus is a utilitarian, as he should be. And he behaves exactly as I would expect. And he will be victorious. That's his role.

So Kellhus being a superman is not a valid criticism. It's the point. We need one, the story needs one. Kellhus being a believable superman, and hence not very sympathetic, can not be a valid criticism either.

It's a reason to dislike the books, for sure. Except for Esmi and maybe Proyas, there aren't any characters to admire. Akka is a distillate of all my own weakest parts (apart from being a very powerful sorcerer, of course). I understand and respect the desire to read (at least for entertainment) characters that you can like. Martin makes us feel even for Victarion and Theon, and maybe Cersei. Bakker doesn't.

But Kelly is not a Mary Sue. He is an invincible superman. And he is the Messiah. Seeing what we're up against, he is our only hope. It really doesn't look too good. Last time around, Seswatha and the Anasûrimbor were fighting on the same side. They also had the only weapon on the planet that was able to pierce the No-God's carapace. This time? Well, the Anasûrimbor has "levelled up" quite a bit through 2000 years of Dûnyain training, and some nifty stuff he learns in TTT. But both these skills are useless (yes, useless) to take down an alien sentience in a carapace of Bakker's Kryptonite. Kellhus needs all the help he can get.

[Guest Raidne]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I started a thread almost identical to this one awhile back, and I think I remember that the book got much, much better about 1/2-2/3 of the way through.

However, that was a really long time ago and I still haven't been able to motivate myself to pick up the second book.

[unJon]

SPOILER: End of TTT

Out of desperation and heartbreak, yes. Bad reasons. I somewhat expect Akka to end up working for the Consult.

SPOILER: Akka

Forgot to add, that it's not out of desperation and heartbreak that Akka rejects Kellhus. Akka goes back at the end of TTT to get Esmi and is rejected by her, but before that he has already rejected Kellhus. And it has more to do with Xenwhatever (the general that looks like Akka and is blinded) than Esmi. Akka 'wakes up' from Kellhus's control when he realizes that Kellhus cannot/will not help Xen.

[Nerdanel]

SPOILER: Kellhus's daddy and TTT

I have no idea if this has been discussed in this thread, as I've tried not reading the TTT spoilers. Anyway, I've still been spoiled elsewhere on Kellhus "killing" his father in TTT. Anyway, I think Moënghus a.k.a. Maithanet is responsible for all the main plot movements in PoN. And as one of the Cishaurim, he has the fancy ability of projecting his face and voice on another.

I think Moënghus summoned Kellhus well knowing that he would come to kill him because he was only one person and couldn't alone control all the complexities of the political and religious divisions in the Three Seas. Then he allowed Kellhus to kill another man in his place so that Kellhus would believe himself to be free. He would thus not try to second-guess or thwart his father's plans, making himself predictable. And Kellhus in his consolation of power would in turn simplify the political climate of the Three Seas, so that Moënghus could finally predict and control it all.

Re: Kellhus and religion: I'm not convinced that the religion in the Three Seas goes by simple majority rule. I think it would be too unoriginal. A lot of people have done some version of the "gods powered by belief" idea. (Neil Gaiman, Terry Pratchett, C. S. Friedman, Tanya Huff, Dan Simmons, Steven Erikson, the D&D developers...) Also, I've never liked the aesthetics of it. Facts generally don't go away if you simply close your eyes and sing lalala. (I'm not any sort of Christian, so it's not about that.) I think nowadays the true edgy thing is going back to the roots. I was genuinely surprised by... (minor spoiler)

SPOILER: Warrior Prophet

...the demon scene. Wow, the religion is actually valid?

I think Kellhus is the Antichrist and Maithanet the False Prophet. I think Kellhus's new view on religion is going to damn a whole lot of people. I think Kellhus is still an atheist and all of the religious views he presents are simply to manipulate people. He's going to learn the truth eventually, though...

As an aside, I think the repeating "death came swirling down" is a subtle way of saying that the person in question is going to Hell.

I think it's probably significant that Kellhus's flag is...

SPOILER: Warrior Prophet

...basically a white, circled, upside-down pentagram on black if you simplify it a little. The flag is basically a synthesis of the famous Leonardo Da Vinci drawing and a black metal band shirt.

Re Sauron: Sauron is a powerful Maia which only equals god for certain polytheistic definitions of god, meaning that he's an immortal with supernatural powers. (He is the god-king of his own false religion, though.) In LotR itself the underlying metaphysical framework and Sauron's place in it is left vague.

If Sauron and Kellhus had a fight, who would win? I don't pretend to know the answer, particularly as Bakker is far from done yet. Sauron and Kellhus are roughly intellectual equals by my estimation, although Kellhus has his probability trance while Sauron probably doesn't and is just flat out that smart. Sauron IS a Maia while Kellhus is just an improved version of a human, but the magic of the Three Seas appears far more useful for handgun purposes, although Middle-earth magic is by no means weak either and Sauron probably has a better grasp of it than Kellhus would have if he used the same system, although we can't be sure...

If Kellhus got his hands on the One Ring, I think he'd claim it for himself, sure that he wouldn't be corrupted. Then he would be corrupted in about five minutes, although with him it would be hard to know the difference. He would never destroy the Ring.

[Maltaran]

SPOILER: Kellhus's daddy and TTT

I have no idea if this has been discussed in this thread, as I've tried not reading the TTT spoilers. Anyway, I've still been spoiled elsewhere on Kellhus "killing" his father in TTT. Anyway, I think Moënghus a.k.a. Maithanet is responsible for all the main plot movements in PoN. And as one of the Cishaurim, he has the fancy ability of projecting his face and voice on another.

I think Moënghus summoned Kellhus well knowing that he would come to kill him because he was only one person and couldn't alone control all the complexities of the political and religious divisions in the Three Seas. Then he allowed Kellhus to kill another man in his place so that Kellhus would believe himself to be free. He would thus not try to second-guess or thwart his father's plans, making himself predictable. And Kellhus in his consolation of power would in turn simplify the political climate of the Three Seas, so that Moënghus could finally predict and control it all.

SPOILER: Moenghus

Note: Moenghus is not Maithanet. Maithanet is actually Moenghus's son, and thus Kellhus's half brother.

[unJon]

SPOILER: Kellhus's daddy and TTT

I have no idea if this has been discussed in this thread, as I've tried not reading the TTT spoilers. Anyway, I've still been spoiled elsewhere on Kellhus "killing" his father in TTT. Anyway, I think Moënghus a.k.a. Maithanet is responsible for all the main plot movements in PoN. And as one of the Cishaurim, he has the fancy ability of projecting his face and voice on another.

I think Moënghus summoned Kellhus well knowing that he would come to kill him because he was only one person and couldn't alone control all the complexities of the political and religious divisions in the Three Seas. Then he allowed Kellhus to kill another man in his place so that Kellhus would believe himself to be free. He would thus not try to second-guess or thwart his father's plans, making himself predictable. And Kellhus in his consolation of power would in turn simplify the political climate of the Three Seas, so that Moënghus could finally predict and control it all.

SPOILER: Kelhuss and fam

I don't think that works. I think Maithanet is pretty clearly Kel's half-brother. Having met, I'm not sure Moenghus as Maithanet would be able to fool Kel regarding age. And Maithanet is half-dunyain so unable to do a lot of what Kel/Moenghus can, and I don't know that Moenghus could pull that off enough to fool Kel.

[Spring Bass]

SPOILER: PoN and Religion

It's probably more complicated than what we've gotten before. The Inchoroi's experience, and that of the Scarlet Tower's second-in-command (his name begins with an "I", I think) summoning a demon which tells him that it will keep his damned soul for all eternity, suggest that part of the beliefs about the Outside are true.

However, at the same time, Scott says in the "Answers to Questions" section at three-seas forums that he deliberately kept the metaphysics of the world mysterious.
So the religious beliefs may be partly correct; certain things probably do damn you, but not all correct. We have to keep in mind the Cishaurim, and their religious beliefs.

[Relic]

It's in the books. Achamian gives a description of the soul to Kelhus using pinpricks in a piece of paper as an analogy if I remember correctly.

I took that story to be lore or some sort of possible explanation at the truth, but not as THE TRUTH if you know what i mean.

Interesting.

[Nerdanel]

SPOILER: Kellhus's family

Do you have proof of Maithanet being Moënghus's son and not Moënghus himself, such as a Maithanet POV? Namely, my theory has rested all along on Moënghus being able cast an illusion to hide his missing eyes and the snakes on his neck. (Cishaurim wouldn't normally do that because they are upstanding members of the society anyway, snakes and all, and if the use of such illusions became publicly known, as it eventually would have to, it would reflect very badly on them.) Then with all of their eugenics, I think the Dûnyain are probably very long-lived. Moënghus wouldn't necessarily look much older than Kellhus and would simply act younger than his true age, like that one whore Achamian paid in advance and then abandoned when he thought he saw Esmenet.

When I read TDTCB I paid attention to the logistics surrounding Maithanet. When he's supposed to spend days praying in seclusion, is he? Or is he out and about, for example on a boat trip to Shimeh and back?

I found a nice little quote from Warrior Prophet relating to this matter that happens to undermine the opposing view.

SPOILER: Kellhus's family

This is from the scene where Ikurei Xerius meets Maithanet. First Maithanet knows that it's Xerius and addresses him with his back turned, which could be just an amazing feat of hearing through background noise combined with the knowledge that only one person would come in wearing slippers. But it could also be that Maithanet made a slip that revealed the 360-degree vision that he has due to the serpents on his neck.

Now the actual quote where Maithanet is described from Xerius's POV:

His face was broad, like that of a yeoman, and surprisingly youthful, though nothing about the man's manner spoke of youth. How old are you?

People are always underestimating Xerius. I think Maithanet is capable of acting younger, but he didn't bother this time.

I wonder if it will turn out that Bakker is a Donaldson-style author, feeding limited information for the readers for the entire book or more before revealing in a later book what the enemy plan really was and how the good guys are now in a worse situation than they ever imagined possible.

[Happy Ent]

Nerdanel, you're simply wrong. It's a good theory, but wrong. Read TTT. It's completely clear who is who. Or are you simply confusing two characters that both start with the same letter?

[unJon]

Nerdanel,

SPOILER: Kel Fam

Well I just can't buy it. But no there are no Maith POVs that I recall. I mean, how do you account for Kel meeting Moenghus? Who is that? There has to be a strong resemblence, and it must be an older person. Remember that Cnauir also sees and kills Moenghus here. And Cnauir is bat-shit crazy at the time. Not sure if that would make it easier or harder for an illusion to fool him. But the illusion...dies...I'm not sure that's possible to pull off with Psushke. There's also no indication that the Dunyain have extended their life, but it's possible. All in all, I'd call it a crackpot theory. Fun one though. I actually thought Maith was going to be Kel's dad when reading the series the first time through.