R. Scott Bakker: What am I missing?

[Werthead]

I didn't find the books slow at all, and read about 400 pages of TDTCB in a single day, the last book I did that with. The litmus test I usually use is compare the series to Dune, which it is similar to in tone and philosophical musings. If a reader likes Dune, I don't really see them not liking TDTCB. However, the second book is by far the best. After reading the third you may feel a little sold short (as in very little is resolved apart from the war itself).

Not sure why a Bakker fan would also like Ayn Rand. Bakker loathes her and the one time I met him, he spent a good ten minutes tearing into Rand and her adherents (including one T.G.). It was very entertaining.

[Kalbear]

Not sure why a Bakker fan would also like Ayn Rand. Bakker loathes her and the one time I met him, he spent a good ten minutes tearing into Rand and her adherents (including one T.G.). It was very entertaining.

They said that they were a big Kellhus fan, not just a Bakker fan. And I can absolutely see why someone would like Kellhus and Rand.

I think Kellhus is not only a villain, he's the villain. That's one of the more fascinating parts of the book, seeing this amoral sociopath do so much.

[Ser Paladin]

I see a lot of love for Bakker, and I just can't get into him. I bought the first book on reccomendations from this board and a couple other boards I read and just can't get "hooked" into it. I find myself losing interest a couple hundred pages into the book.

You're about at the spot in the book where I almost gave up on it myself. By the time I got 1/3 of the way into Warrior Prophet, I was on the board singing the praises of the series. I'm a huge fan now. But yes, the first half of TDTCB is confusing. If you stick to it, you should find yourself getting immersed and committed to the characters. Unless, of course it truly isn't your cup of tea.

Waht Kal said, I struggled for the first half of book one. By the Time I was done I liked it. Book 2 I loved from the start. Absolutely awesome book.

On the other hand I've read the first two Malazan books, and they do nothing for me.

I also had given up on Malazan after the first two books, after reading all the high praise here. Gardens of the Moon was barely above average, and Deadhouse Gates was a slog, so I gave up. But, with nothing on the read pile last month, I went out and bought Memories of Ice. I am very invested in the characters and world now, and am finding myself enjoying the book quite a bit.

So, Race, even though we were in fierce agreement about the merits of Prince of Nothing and the problems with Malazan shortly after the release of the Thousandfold Thought, I've changed my mind. You might want to give Memories of Ice a chance, as the "structure" is finally revealed, and things get much clearer.

[starfall]

Darkness was great, if only for the worldbuilding. I can't recall any fantasy world that has captivated moi thus since Westeros came along. (Btw, I couldn't get into Malazan at all.)

Character portrayal is pretty bad; there's too much spitting and snarling and consequently, I found the characters annoying.

Nonetheless, I've wandered into the Three Seas, and in spite of all the squalor, I don't quite want to leave.

[Nerdanel]

They said that they were a big Kellhus fan, not just a Bakker fan. And I can absolutely see why someone would like Kellhus and Rand.

I think Kellhus is not only a villain, he's the villain. That's one of the more fascinating parts of the book, seeing this amoral sociopath do so much.

I think Kellhus is the local version of the Antichrist.

Yes, the fangirl in question is someone who swallowed Kellhus's justifications for evil hook, line, and sinker just like she had earlier done with Ayn Rand. I think Kellhus is very much like an Ayn Rand hero without the paeans for Capitalism. Richard Rahl doesn't really compare though, as he's completely ruled by emotion (despite all the rhetoric to the contrary) and more of a Chaotic Evil to Kellhus's Lawful Evil.

[Caligula_K]

I'm going to go against the grain here and say that The Darkness That Comes Before is my favourite book from the trilogy. No, the war doesn't start until the end, but I loved the political maneuvering, the characterization (particularly of Cnaiur); hell, the scenes where Kellhus and Cnaiur are alone together are some of my favourites in fantasy. The scenes from the POV of the Emperor of Nansur also greatly amused me; indeed, after the prologue, which was a bit tough to get through, I'd say it turned into a pageturner for me. Then again, Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell was a pageturner for me, so my opinion may not be valid in comparison to others here.

[Xray the Enforcer]

*raises hand*

Took me forever -- and a sheer force of will -- to get through the first hundred pages or so of TDTCB. Then all was good. I do agree with others in that Bakker is either your bag, or it's not.

[Shryke]

am i one of the few people who liked the first book from start to end? i didnt even think it was slow...

weird

I'm with you there. I found it fasinating the whole way through. The prologue is pretty weird to start though, but looking back and reading it, along with the whole series, for a second time, I really appreciated how it sets up alot about Kelhus.

And I didn't mind the war not starting in the first one at all. The set up and the political maneuvering is interesting and very important to the overall plot of the book. The first book really sets the stage for the rest of the series and the rest of the other series set in this world.

[Shryke]

I can understand Bakker hating Ayn Rand. As a philosophy Professor (I'm pretty sure he's one anyway), any suggestion that Ayn Rand is a philosopher grates on him. Alot. I used to post on Three Seas alot when he used to post there, and he had nothing but contempt for her.

As for Kelhus, I think seeing him as the straight villan is far too simplistic. At the moment he's the smaller evil that's going to save your ass from the larger evil. And I wouldn't even call him evil. He's amoral, in the exact sense of the word. That's the result of this idea of the "self-moving soul". He has no connection to the rules and morals that society imposes on the rest of us. He does whatever he feels he needs to in order to achieve his goals. The only saving grace is that those goals, at the moment anyway, happen to involve saving the human race from extinction.

[Arakasi]

Shocking that a Bakker thread turns into a bash Erikson thread.

Anyway as for Bakker I enjoyed his first book a hell of a lot more than the second. I like his writing just fine. The problem is I absolutely despise the messiahish mary sue Kelhus. Mr. I'm great at everything, best fighter, best lover, master manipulator, leader, magic user, etc. Just yeah I understand what Bakker is doing with him, but I hate the character and thus have stopped reading the series. Despite that Bakker himself is quite a good author. Just don't like the subject he is writing about or the story he is telling.

In the future I'll probably read the next series Bakker puts out. But Kelhus ruined the series for me.

[Shryke]

Shocking that a Bakker thread turns into a bash Erikson thread.

Anyway as for Bakker I enjoyed his first book a hell of a lot more than the second. I like his writing just fine. The problem is I absolutely despise the messiahish mary sue Kelhus. Mr. I'm great at everything, best fighter, best lover, master manipulator, leader, magic user, etc. Just yeah I understand what Bakker is doing with him, but I hate the character and thus have stopped reading the series. Despite that Bakker himself is quite a good author. Just don't like the subject he is writing about or the story he is telling.

In the future I'll probably read the next series Bakker puts out. But Kelhus ruined the series for me.

The next series is called the Aspect Emperor and is a continuation of the story of the Three Seas and Kelhus.

[Kalbear]

Wait, you think Kellhus is a Mary Sue but Rake and Karsa are okay?

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

am i one of the few people who liked the first book from start to end? i didnt even think it was slow...

No, I liked the first book as well.

I didn't find the books slow at all, and read about 400 pages of TDTCB in a single day, the last book I did that with. The litmus test I usually use is compare the series to Dune, which it is similar to in tone and philosophical musings. If a reader likes Dune, I don't really see them not liking TDTCB. However, the second book is by far the best. After reading the third you may feel a little sold short (as in very little is resolved apart from the war itself).

Dune also easily makes my Top 5 list of novels.

As for Kelhus, I think seeing him as the straight villan is far too simplistic. At the moment he's the smaller evil that's going to save your ass from the larger evil. And I wouldn't even call him evil. He's amoral, in the exact sense of the word. That's the result of this idea of the "self-moving soul". He has no connection to the rules and morals that society imposes on the rest of us. He does whatever he feels he needs to in order to achieve his goals. The only saving grace is that those goals, at the moment anyway, happen to involve saving the human race from extinction.

Very well put. He is much like a cross between Gene Wolfe's amoral Severian and Paul Muad'dib. Paul Atreides uses the Fremen in a similar manner as to how Kellhus uses the crusaders of the Holy War - to make their cause his and then afterwards to guide the fate of humanity.

Shocking that a Bakker thread turns into a bash Erikson thread.

Well take a look at how the thread started - someone not liking Bakker, but liking Erikson. And as of now, whatever Erikson bashing is in this thread is very light compared to the other posters who are posting their fellow dislikes of Bakker, so stop rolling your eyes and keep that in perspective.

[Nerdanel]

I think Kellhus isn't a Mary Sue for the same reason Sauron isn't a Mary Sue and wouldn't have been one even if he had had his own POV sections in LotR (or to be exact, more than the brief little one he had).

I think Kellhus is evil. He certainly does a lot of evil, and for selfish reasons. I don't think you can get much more evil in a human than Kellhus. He might be made more like a Goodkind villain if he were turned into say a sadist, but I don't think that would make him more evil, only more destructive. And besides, I think it's perfectly possible to be a good person and a sadist. If you don't think Kellhus is evil, who is? Everyone has motivations, including evil people.

I haven't read the third book yet (it should be out in paperback pretty soon, right?) and don't know if Kellhus thinks of his long-term plans there, but I don't think he's a dependable lesser evil at all. I think he's just the kind of person to sell the entire humanity to the No-God in exchange for immortality, or something like that. But more than that, I think he's been manipulated by the No-God the entire time and has unwittingly done his work.

[Arakasi]

Wait, you think Kellhus is a Mary Sue but Rake and Karsa are okay?

Sure, the situations are completely different.

SPOILER: on Malaz and Bakker

1) Rake and Karsa are only mary sueish in that they're great fighters. If someone combined Rake, Karsa, Paran and Kruppe into one character I'd have an issue with that. There is not one thing in the Bakker world that Kelhus is not the best at. Kelhus is not only the best fighter (Karsa), he is also the smartest guy (Kruppe), knows how to manipulate everyone, is the best lover (the whole subplot in book 2 really pissed me off with Achi), becomes great at magic, etc.

2) They actually have adversaries with equal capabilities, especially considering Rake and Karsa are on opposite ends of the conflict. Kelhus completely dominates his counterparts. There is no yin to his yang. I dislike the series because of how he dominates it. That situation doesn't happen in Erikson or pretty much most other fantasy out there. Erikson is filled with people and gods with exceptional powers and insights, and they contest throughout the series. Kelhus stands alone. It kind of reminds me of complaints people have about Masters of Rome with Caesar, in that they make everyone pathetic to series. I didn't mind as much there because Caesar was actually sympathetic. Kelhus isn't.

[Arakasi]

I think Kellhus isn't a Mary Sue for the same reason Sauron isn't a Mary Sue and wouldn't have been one even if he had had his own POV sections in LotR (or to be exact, more than the brief little one he had).

Umm, so you're comparing Kelhus (a mortal man) to an immortal demigod who has lived thousands of years. That almost makes my point right there. But at least Sauron actually had weaknesses, Kelhus (at least through the end of book 2) really doesn't. Reading about an all powerful messiah (aka god) for me is not very fun. Book 1 worked for me because I believed that he could best Cnaiur like he did. Book 2 it stopped working for me because he would blab a few words of philosophical tripe and people would crumble under the spell of Kelhus' all powerful intellect and manipulations.

[Meneldil]

Thanks for all the replies. I will give it a try again. Last time I stopped around when some guy was trying to recruit his ex apprentice (forgot the name, like I said the book bored me.) Someone mentioned Dune above, and I have read Dune quite a few times and love the book. I just can't see the big picture in the series yet, and the characters haven't interested me enough to keep reading.

~Meneldil

[Shryke]

I haven't read the third book yet (it should be out in paperback pretty soon, right?) and don't know if Kellhus thinks of his long-term plans there, but I don't think he's a dependable lesser evil at all. I think he's just the kind of person to sell the entire humanity to the No-God in exchange for immortality, or something like that. But more than that, I think he's been manipulated by the No-God the entire time and has unwittingly done his work.

You don't really make a deal with the No-God. We don't even know if it really counts as the kind of thing you can make a deal with. As for the rest:

SPOILER: Very Mild TTT spoilers

The No-God's sole, as far as we know anyway, purpose is to bring about the extinction of all sentient life on the face of Earwa. Kelhus is exploiting the Holy War in order to bind the Three Seas together into a force capable of standing against the Consult. All other concerns are secondary next to that.

[Kalbear]

First off, Arakasi, I'd consider spoilering things. Same rules, right? We're talking about people who haven't even finished the first book in the series.

SPOILER: Kellhus spoilers through series

Kellhus has so far dominated the few things he's fought against that were human. At least we have a rational explanation as to why. He has yet to go up against the truly scary Consult constructs or anything else. He's yet to go up against the No-God. He's yet to go up against anything in the world that can be his equal save his father - and his father fucked up.

How do Rake and Karsa have any equals? They've never, ever been beaten. Ever. They've never really been challenged. They are exactly the same as Kellhus in that no one close to their power level has ever fought them. You believe that Karsa and Rake will eventually meet a match; I believe the same with Kellhus.

Kellhus is specifically supposed to be beyond everyone; that was the point of 2000 years of breeding and training. Why is Karsa the equivalent of a God? Why is Rake? At least there exists justification for Kellhus' skill.

The other thing that makes Kellhus less Mary-Sueish is that he is an amoral sociopath. He is not the good guy. He can do everything better than humans because, well, he is not human any more. As pointed out, it's like complaining that Sauron is more powerful than Aragorn. He is more powerful, but he is the bad guy.

[Shryke]

Thanks for all the replies. I will give it a try again. Last time I stopped around when some guy was trying to recruit his ex apprentice (forgot the name, like I said the book bored me.) Someone mentioned Dune above, and I have read Dune quite a few times and love the book. I just can't see the big picture in the series yet, and the characters haven't interested me enough to keep reading.

~Meneldil

That's where Achamian is trying to recruit his former student Inrau, in order to figure out what the hell the Thousand Temples are up to. There's about to be some important revalations about what may really be going on soon.

The big picture, on the surface anyway, is the Holy War itself. The important stuff is how people are using the Holy War in order to acheive their own ends. By the end of the book, all the plot lines converge on the Holy War itself.