AFFC Reread Project - Jaime

[lokisnow]

I just finished Jaime VI on my reread. One thing of interest to note. Both Cersei and Jaime are sending a lot of men to the wall. The broken men that make it north may be sent to the wall by the sane lords (ie not Boltons) and I'm sure any prisoners taken by Howland Reed's people will be sent to the wall. The wall may suddenly be getting a rather substantial influx of men for Jon to disburse.

I think this is my favorite chapter, we see how a lot of character development has matured him in this chapter. It's fascinating to watch his thoughts and realize how much we sympathize with him now. I feel sorry for Brynden Tully and annoyed with him. He'd be fantastic on the Nights Watch it's too bad Catelyn's crappy judgement and Theon's actions have biased him against Jon.

on the other hand Jaime didn't do a very good job of treating with Brynden. he's definitely not a politician nor skilled with words.

I just realized what a nice counterpoint it is that as Cersie becomes more sociopathic in her behavior and mindset Jaime becomes more and more sane and even-handed (if harsh).

[Tears of Lys]

I must say I enjoyed Feast much more the second time, especially the last third of the book. It really picks up excitement and action with Cersei on her headlong rush to self-destruction, Jaime's dealing with not being able to fight his way through life, and Brienne's deadly encounters and cliff-hanger ending POV.

Jaime continues to grow on me. The dream of Joanna with its poignant exchange - "Cersei is a queen, and I am a knight" - was

very touching and telling.

[A wilding]

It's fascinating to watch [Jaime's] thoughts and realize how much we sympathize with him now.

There are very much two ways in which Jaime can be viewed in AFfC. You can decide that he is a likeable character and start rooting for him. On the other hand you can remember that his treasonous coupling with the queen was largely the cause of a destructive war in which he and his family happened to come out on top. He may want peace and love throughout Westeros now, but he wants peace and love on the condition that he and his family get to keep their victory spoils (my post #84 above pushed this viewpoint). So he gets upset by having to face an honourable man who is not willing to quietly accept the effective end of his House and peacefully go off to the NW or somewhere else out of Jaime's sight.

[Dolorous Edd Targaryen]

Good question. The room seems very nice...a window seat, hearth, shutters. You could be right that it was Hoster's bed. The guest right would require the lord of castle to give him the best room.

I am wondering what Lady Joanna was saying to him? Is she discouraging or encouraging him to return and defend the honor of the family? Will "they" laugh more if he defends Cersei's honor.

Interesting that he is asked what Arya is being asked.

I'm curious about the bed because Jamie has had revealing dreams in the past when he slept on or near wierwoods. Looking back at earlier books, Hoster's bed is wooden and has leaping fish carved into the posts, but there is no mention of it being wierwood.

Joanna seems to be telling Jamie two things directly:

1. There is something important Jaime does not know about himself.
   
2. Tywin's dream of his son being a great knight and his daughter being a queen has gone unfulfilled.
   

There are a couple other little things in the books (including comments by Lady Genna in AFFC, and earlier rumors about Joanna) that hint at these two facts just possibly being the same fact. If that's the case, then Tears of Lys is certainly right to call Jaime's comment "telling".

[SnowGhost]

I'm curious about the bed because Jamie has had revealing dreams in the past when he slept on or near wierwoods. Looking back at earlier books, Hoster's bed is wooden and has leaping fish carved into the posts, but there is no mention of it being wierwood.

Joanna seems to be telling Jamie two things directly:

1. There is something important Jaime does not know about himself.
   
2. Tywin's dream of his son being a great knight and his daughter being a queen has gone unfulfilled.
   

There are a couple other little things in the books (including comments by Lady Genna in AFFC, and earlier rumors about Joanna) that hint at these two facts just possibly being the same fact. If that's the case, then Tears of Lys is certainly right to call Jaime's comment "telling".

This is my first post. So if i get the post all screwed up sorry. But i think jaime will fill joanna's requirements of a great knight. He's already becoming more honorable and reliable. What do you guys think jaime will do next book after he gets the note from Cersei?

[Lord Eddard's Shame]

There are very much two ways in which Jaime can be viewed in AFfC. You can decide that he is a likeable character and start rooting for him. On the other hand you can remember that his treasonous coupling with the queen was largely the cause of a destructive war in which he and his family happened to come out on top. He may want peace and love throughout Westeros now, but he wants peace and love on the condition that he and his family get to keep their victory spoils (my post #84 above pushed this viewpoint). So he gets upset by having to face an honourable man who is not willing to quietly accept the effective end of his House and peacefully go off to the NW or somewhere else out of Jaime's sight.

Not a fan of Goldenhand the Just?

"He may want peace and love throughout Westeros now, but he wants peace and love on the condition that he and his family get to keep their victory spoils."

That is not true, as he shows when he burns Cersei's letter, and also when his aunt says, "I'm sorry for your loss," and he says, "I had a golden hand made in its stead." "I was speaking of your Lord father!" (Though this also shows that, to some extent, Jaime thinks of himself first.)

Jaime has never cared about his House at all. He was Heir to one of the most powerful Houses in Westeros, certainly the richest, yet he gives it all up for love. Of course, this was an incestuous love for his own sister, but he loves her as a wife, not a sister. After he loses his hand, he no longer has the ability to be a good Knight of the Kingsguard, and yet, somehow, by losing his hand he finds his honor. His father offers him an out and a way to serve his own House, yet he refuses. I think when Tywin disowned him he took it to heart. He gave away the sword his father gave him, he stopped wearing Lannister colors, and began trying to fill the role of Lord Commander, for which he is now woefully unsuited.

Furthermore, he has learned humility with the loss of his hand and his defeat by the Young Wolf, and the defeat of his entire House, really, with the exception of Tywin. This humility has made him wise and he begins to use strategy rather than bold and brash action. He has turned from an overconfident, cocksure commander into a wary and defensive leader of men as he shows through his careful, even plodding pace in the taking of River Run.

Jaime, I think, is my favorite character (with the exceptions of Dany and Jon, of course, and maybe Samwell and Bran and Arya . . . Hell, I like em all! (Except Cersei, who I hate.)) Needless to say he will not survive Dany's return. He will die defending the King (or Queen) he has sworn to protect. Hopefully there will be enough time between now and then for him to do something which will redeem his name in men's eyes so the histories remember him for the man he is becoming.

Tywin's dream of his son being a great knight and his daughter being a queen has gone unfulfilled.

I don't believe that is what Lanna's shade was telling him. Cersei is certainly a Queen, and Jaime is certainly a Knight. Tywin's greatest wishes were granted. However, like the darkest of fairy tales, you must be careful what you wish for. Cersei is as bad a Queen as Aerys was a King, and Jaime is a maimed Knight who is viewed by one and all as having "shit for honor." Tywin got everything he ever asked for, and nothing he ever wanted. He wanted his daughter to be a great and powerful Queen, and she is Queen of one city in a war torn realm, and the worst Queen ever at that. He wanted a brave and strong Knight to be his Heir after him, and he thought he had gotten it until he joined the King's Guard and could no longer be his Heir, leaving him with a twisted and malformed dwarf. His son did become the greatest Knight in the realm, and then he became the most reviled Knight in a stroke.

Tywin's had a bad lot. I could almost pity him if I could find myself capable to pity those brimming with arrogance and utterly lacking in honor.

[A wilding]

"He may want peace and love throughout Westeros now, but he wants peace and love on the condition that he and his family get to keep their victory spoils."

That is not true.

So how do you explain that he is busy taking Riverrun away from its current owners so that he can carry out the decree of his father, signed by his son, to give his uncle and aunt the place instead?

Jaime has never cared about his House at all. He was Heir to one of the most powerful Houses in Westeros, certainly the richest, yet he gives it all up for love.

Jaime has never particularly wanted to rule his House. He understands that it would be hard work and responsibility (note that he does not want to be Hand either). His wish has always been to be a great knight, this made it easy for him to join the Kingsguard and meant he had little temptation to let his father get him out and turn him back into a piece in the game of thrones.

and yet, somehow, by losing his hand he finds his honor.

I just don't see why people think this. He has made a single quixotic (and rather poorly thought out) gesture, sending Brienne off after Sansa with Oathkeeper. Other than that, how exactly has he suddenly become more honourable? I note for example, that throughout AFfC he does not have a single thought about the worst of his acts: his attempted murder of Bran; and his responsibility for helping start the War of the Five Kings by fathering Cersei's children.

I think when Tywin disowned him he took it to heart. He gave away the sword his father gave him, he stopped wearing Lannister colors, and began trying to fill the role of Lord

Commander, for which he is now woefully unsuited.

He has not in any way cut himself off from his House. All I see is an estrangement from his father because he was tired of that father manipulating him. He still wears Lannister colours in AFfC whenever it suits him. And he makes a reasonably good Lord Commander.

Furthermore, he has learned humility with the loss of his hand and his defeat by the Young Wolf

I will grant you he has learned some wisdom, but I really don't see much humility. A great deal of his new found caution is down to the fact that without his sword skills he is forced to act differently. The old Jaime is still there. For example: when he doesn't like what the Red Griffin is saying he hits the man; when he considers himself slighted by the Blackfish at the parley, only the fact that he was not allowed to bring his sword along prevents him from drawing it and attacking.

Jaime will die defending the King (or Queen) he has sworn to protect.

Very likely yes. It will make a change to see him actually keeping an oath for once.

Hopefully there will be enough time between now and then for him to do something which will redeem his name in men's eyes

He has not made a good start though, terrorising Edmure into surrendering Riverrun by threatening to murder his baby child. I imagine that Tom O'Sevens is all set to work that one into a ballad.

[Lord Eddard's Shame]

So how do you explain that he is busy taking Riverrun away from its current owners so that he can carry out the decree of his father, signed by his son, to give his uncle and aunt the place instead?

Because he swore an oath to his King and his King commanded him (through his Queen Regent) to do this thing. We see that Jaime is now trying to act in an honorable way, by keeping his oaths. He arrived too late to keep his oaths to Catelin, Arya was missing and Sansa was married to Tyrion and missing as well, yet we see in SoS that Jaime meant to keep those oaths. In the beginning, before he lost his hand, it was as a lark, just to do something no one would expect of him. Later it became a desire in him. Brienne's influence has caused Jaime to remember what being a Knight is supposed to be about. Jaime complains that "it's too much" that no one can ever keep all their vows. But here, in FfC we see that he is giving weight to his vows. He swore never to take up arms against House Tully or Stark, and he does everything in his power to negotiate a peaceful takeover of River Run so that he will not have to break that vow. The reason he gives is that "his vow to his king comes first."

I will grant you he has learned some wisdom, but I really don't see much humility. A great deal of his new found caution is down to the fact that without his sword skills he is forced to act differently. The old Jaime is still there. For example: when he doesn't like what the Red Griffin is saying he hits the man; when he considers himself slighted by the Blackfish at the parley, only the fact that he was not allowed to bring his sword along prevents him from drawing it and attacking.

You are right, his is forced to act differently. He is forced to think before he acts because he knows the way he acted before would land him in a dozen duels now since people would be willing to fight him left handed. The humility lies in the things which he thinks but does not say. The same sort of things he said to Brienne before he lost his hand. The most telling act of his new humility was at the end of SoS when he wrote in the White Book. "Defeated and captured by the Young Wolf at the battle of the Whispering Wood. Ransomed by Catelyn Stark for a vow unfulfilled. Lost his sword hand to Zollo the Fat of the Brave Companions at the word of Vargo Hoat. Brought safely to King's Landing by Brienne the Maid of Tarth." He does not try and sugar coat anything, but tells it as it is.

In his newfound wisdom he knows that he must keep his feebleness as a lefthanded swordsman a secret until he learns some skill. He knows that his reputation is such that people still fear to test him. He still has the temper of a man who thinks with his sword, which is why he is thankful that he did not have his sword, or he would have drawn it, and he knows that the Blackfish would have buggered him with it before he deigned to kill him. He makes threats to Edmure Tully because he knows that Tully will believe them, because of his reputation. He even feels somewhat disgusted with himself afterward as he thinks, "with a mangonel" etc. It is more honorable to threaten one man with a horrible act than to break a vow, command thousands of men to their death and the death of hundreds more of the enemy.

I just don't see why people think [he gained his honor when he lost his hand]. He has made a single quixotic (and rather poorly thought out) gesture, sending Brienne off after Sansa with Oathkeeper. Other than that, how exactly has he suddenly become more honourable? I note for example, that throughout AFfC he does not have a single thought about the worst of his acts: his attempted murder of Bran; and his responsibility for helping start the War of the Five Kings by fathering Cersei's children.

He has already thought upon what he did to Bran. Enough to say that he regrets it and that if he had it to do over again he probably would have done things differently. There's really not much more he can do about that, so what's the point on dwelling upon it? He's also taken responsibility for helping to start the War of the Five Kings by fathering Cersei's children. He knows that he cannot erase the past, all he can do is try and perform new deeds which may overshadow, but never erase, his own sins.

Before Jaime lost his hand he would have gone to River Run, and if he treated with them at all it would be to say, "Give me the castle or I will kill every one of you." When they said "no" he would have attacked without a second thought to his vow never to take up arms against them. Even without a hand he could have done the same thing. The fact that he does not shows that he is learning honor. If he continues as he is, keeping his promises and treating fairly with his enemies, he will be remembered as the most honorable Knight of the times. If, of course, he has has time to do so.

He has not in any way cut himself off from his House. All I see is an estrangement from his father because he was tired of that father manipulating him. He still wears Lannister colours in AFfC whenever it suits him. And he makes a reasonably good Lord Commander.

The only time I remember him wearing Lannister colors is when he wore a padded leather jack and a crimson cloak to treat with the Blackfish. The rest of the time he was in Kingsguard white. Someone else encoutered one of his horses in Lannister colors, but that was nothing to do with him, and he chose to ride the other horse. I believe the only reason he wore a Lannister cloak to that parley was because he did not wish to sully the cloak of the Kingsguard with a broken Vow if he was forced to take up arms against them. Not to mention it is his arms themselves which are white, both in the physical sense and the heraldic sense. By wearing his old colors, no armor, and no sword, it shows that he was not taking up arms against them.

It's a slow start, and rocky, but Jaime has taken the first steps on the path to redemption. His is not a sin against the gods, however. He killed a king that deserved killing. It was only the reaction of men which caused him to lose his faith in honor. If men were going to call him Kingslayer, and refuse to trust him because he foreswore his oath, there was no point in being anything but what they thought him. Now he has learned otherwise, and is facing an uphill struggle to prove he is not what that one act made him out to be.

But he is facing it, and he is struggling. That alone shows that he has regained his honor.

[A wilding]

I think that we are somewhat at risk of hijacking this thread here. Perhaps we should start one in the General section instead. However I will make one more post here:

We see in SoS that Jaime meant to keep those oaths. In the beginning, before he lost his hand, it was as a lark, just to do something no one would expect of him. Later it became a desire in him.

But how much of a desire? He makes his quixotic gesture, but what exactly does it mean? Sansa is still wanted for regicide, with the full panoply of the Lannister law after her, and with a large price on her head. Just what are Brienne's chances of finding her before anyone else and of keeping her safe even if she does? Can Jaime really be said to have fulfilled his obligation with this action?

Again at Riverrun, we see Jaime merely being squeamish about his actions. He tries to hide behind sophistry, he is not "really" breaking the letter of his oath, but he obviously does not believe it himself.

Basically there is a persistent pattern with Jaime and oaths. He wants to be seen as a great knight like Arthur Dayne, but always when it comes to the crunch he is never willing to pay the price. Consistently he breaks his oaths at the first moment it would cost him a significantly greater amount of pain, risk, or effort to keep them than to break them.

There is a similar pattern with his bad deeds. The only one that at all upsets him is killing Aerys, certainly not the worst of them. Why? Because it became public and ruined his reputation. The other ones he has no conscience about at all. A casual thought that he had "come to regret" attempting to murder a child? So that's all right then. :sick: He will have to do a bit more than that to convince me he is learning honour.

I don't see why exactly it is so honourable to terrorise Edmure into surrendering Riverrun. For a start with, it is not as simple as "the king ordered him to do it". The king is a child, and Jaime has a number of ways in which he could attempt to get the Regent to change her mind. Look at the facts here. The Tullys were caught up in a civil war not entirely of their own making, indeed much more of Jaime's, since he was responsible of the bastardy of Robert's supposed heir. During the war they did little more than defend their lands against repeated attacks by the Lannisters. At the conclusion of the war Lord Tywin stripped everything from them by way of punishment, surely an extraordinarily harsh measure dictated mostly by his greed to extend Lannister power. (Compare it, for example, with what happened to House Tyrell when the Targaryens fell.) Naturally the Blackfish wants to resist to the last! Is it really honourable for Jaime to implement this unjust action, and when he has the influence to broker a compromise? Even by the "saving lives" argument, he is heaping up a great pile of resentment in the Riverlands. What are the chances of the settlement he has made lasting? Wouldn't a negotiated peace that left a diminished but reconciled House Tully still at Riverrun be better? And even if not better, more moral to attempt?

[Lord Eddard's Shame]

I don't see how we could hijack a thread about Jaime by talking about Jaime. Especially since it has run its course, and we are now talking into account all of the chapters in FfC from Jaime's point of view. That said, I say we continue

There is a similar pattern with his bad deeds. The only one that at all upsets him is killing Aerys, certainly not the worst of them. Why? Because it became public and ruined his reputation. The other ones he has no conscience about at all. A casual thought that he had "come to regret" attempting to murder a child? So that's all right then. He will have to do a bit more than that to convince me he is learning honour.

That is not true. The act of killing Aerys does not upset him in the slightest. Indeed, he even tells Brienne in SoS that it is ironic that he should be reviled for his greatest deed. The thing which upsets him most about it is, as you say, the public opinion of the act. They see only the surface, that he foreswore himself in the worst possible way, all unknowing that he saved countless lives by doing so.

Now he must live with the "shame" of his deed. Until he lost his hand he refused to feel shame for the breaking of an oath, and fought back by remaining as arrogant as humanly possible. He became bitter, however, that his word would never again be trusted, that people saw him as an oathbreaker and a murderer.

When he lost his hand, he realized that they were justified in their views, that without the hand that made him a great swordsman he was really nothing. He had no honor, no valient deeds, no ethics or code. He had nothing.

When he lost his hand he gained these things, or at least began the effort of gathering them to himself. He found ethics in that he would not have sex with Cersei in the White Tower and later in the sept. Though he did not balk at the idea of having sex with her itself. He found solace in the code of the White Cloak, and made that his new life's mission. He gains honor everytime he fullfills a vow and keeps his word.

I don't see why exactly it is so honourable to terrorise Edmure into surrendering Riverrun. For a start with, it is not as simple as "the king ordered him to do it". The king is a child, and Jaime has a number of ways in which he could attempt to get the Regent to change her mind. Look at the facts here. The Tullys were caught up in a civil war not entirely of their own making, indeed much more of Jaime's, since he was responsible of the bastardy of Robert's supposed heir. During the war they did little more than defend their lands against repeated attacks by the Lannisters. At the conclusion of the war Lord Tywin stripped everything from them by way of punishment, surely an extraordinarily harsh measure dictated mostly by his greed to extend Lannister power. (Compare it, for example, with what happened to House Tyrell when the Targaryens fell.) Naturally the Blackfish wants to resist to the last! Is it really honourable for Jaime to implement this unjust action, and when he has the influence to broker a compromise? Even by the "saving lives" argument, he is heaping up a great pile of resentment in the Riverlands. What are the chances of the settlement he has made lasting? Wouldn't a negotiated peace that left a diminished but reconciled House Tully still at Riverrun be better? And even if not better, more moral to attempt?

Actually, it is as simple as "the king ordered him to do it." You see, that is the nature of oaths. In the strictest sense the king ordering him to kill an infant at its mothers breast is a more honorable act than disobeying the word of the king. There is nothing in the oath about "only following orders that are within reason." That is what the Hightower was trying to impart to Jaime in all those recollections he has in SoS.

Also, this morality of which you speak and the hard road the Tully's have had is based on a reader's overview rather than the situation as it would pertain to Jaime's point of view. Sure, you and I both might root for the Tullys and Starks to win out in the end (and I assure you I do) but from Jaime's point of view what he is doing is not only what he was ordered to do by royal decree, but what is right for the peace of the Realm. He is upholding the oaths and decrees which his sworn liege made to his vassals.

Jaime's final test came when he first returned to King's Landing in SoS and he tried to get Cersei to declare their love and openly marry him. It was when this last hope, this last wish, was denied him that he turned to the one thing he cherished that remained to him: The White Cloak, and all it symbolizes. He could not seek solace in Cersei's arms, so he found his comfort in Duty and Honor.

[A wilding]

Actually, it is as simple as "the king ordered him to do it." You see, that is the nature of oaths. In the strictest sense the king ordering him to kill an infant at its mothers breast is a more honorable act than disobeying the word of the king. There is nothing in the oath about "only following orders that are within reason." That is what the Hightower was trying to impart to Jaime in all those recollections he has in SoS.

It could be argued that as a KG Jaime must obey totally every command that could be said to emanate from the king, without considering or judging in the slightest its morality or correctness. However, it really would be a little late for Jaime to argue this way, considering how he served kings Aerys and Robert!

As I said, Jaime has consistently ignored oaths whenever they inconvenienced him or prevented him from doing anything he wanted to do, and as yet I see little evidence of change. Even with Aerys, he picked about the only course of action that gave him personally much chance of survival - this may not have been his central consideration, but it does fit in the pattern.

[ThomasFoster]

I definitely think one of the best things about this board is the ability of the members to have a genuinely serious discussion about ethics based on the premise of an autocratic government.

Personally, I feel for Jaime. I know from my own life that people can think about thing of equal importance to different degrees. GRRM reflects this. Catelyn (for whom I have a certain sympathy, if not actual like) dwells on this. Jaime doesn't. But the single thought "Damnit, I regret that" from Jaime may signify as deep a regret as all Catelyn's obsessing. It doesn't mean either one regrets it more or less, just how they are constitutionally design to treat regret.

As for Jaime, he desperately wanted to be a good Knight, and one of the things that they apparently don't tell you as a child in Westeros is that this isn't straightforward. He tried keeping his oath, but it tortured him to do it.

So he then decides to act on his own conscience, informed by his father who, ambiguous as we see him to be, surely has enough virtues for a son to respect. He turns on Aerys, breaks his vows and is heralded, even by the men who lead a rebellion against that same king, even by those who benefited most from his (laudable) act, as the Kingslayer. He can't win. It's no wonder that he gives in to the temptations that surround anyone who's rich, powerful and gorgeous, and has Cersei whispering in his ear, to become an arrogant prat for a while.

As a child, the world offered him a standard (that of a good and loyal Knight) and promised him the rewards of prestige and respect if he could reach it. But then he found out that no-one can actually satisfy all the conditions - to keep the oath of obedience *and* protect the weak, for instance.

So he enters a period of hating the world, but repressing that under a mask of insolence, arrogance and fucking Cersei's brains out, all of which are easier to do than confronting his disappointment and failure would be. Having his sword had cut of makes him hate, and so all this hate pours out of the door.

His dreams have turned to hate, and now the hate has left, so he finds, as most adults should, a vacum in which he must make adult decision as to what he values devoid of the false impression of childhood. That is why I think he's retreated from all but his most basic responsibilities in AFfC. He's working though, even if he doesn't know it, his own system of values and ethics. The last chapter is when this subconscious re-positioning comes to the fore. Having taken refuge in blind if skilled obedience to his duties he is now ready to emerge once again into the limelight and make his own decisions about *what* to do, not merely how to do it.

[Lord Eddard's Shame]

tomfoster,

I couldn't agree more, and put much more susinctly than I ever could have done it.

A wildling,

It isn't as if cutting Jaime's hand off magically turned him into a good person over night. I was just trying to say, as tom put it so well, that Jaime is beginning to find his honor. He is in the process of changing, and that is why I began to like him where I hated him in the beginning and thought, "Why a Jaime point of view? I HATE Jaime!" when I first read his name in bold print. (I thought the same about Cersei, and still do. I think a Margaery point of view could have done the same thing, been much more interesting, and easier to read. Cersei is a disaster.)

When Jaime sent off Brienne, it was not the best thought out plan, but it had honor in that it gave her meaningful employ, it got her out of King's Landing which would have corrupted her or gotten her killed, seperating her from the hot headed Lorras, and also got someone he knew and respected to search for Sansa. After that, however, I thought Jaime was a bit of an idiot. But toward the last few chapters of FFC we see that he is beginning to act intelligently as well. He cannot use his sword as the key to all problems, so he has to use his brain. He is beginning to.

[aspasia]

Another perspective of Jaime, before he lost everyone's trust, he was COMPLETELY trusted, even by the paranoid King Aerys who thought Tywin would turn on him. We understand this when Jaime reminisces about the battle before the Trident. The king kept Jaime close. Jaime was at one time the epitome of trust and loyalty. Is it no wonder why the world hates him?

Aerys didn't keep Jaime close because of trust, he kept him close as a hostage against Lord Tywin. Just as he believed that keeping Elia and her children close meant he was safe from betrayal by the Martells. I believe Rheagar actually says something to this effect when leaving for the Trident. Jaime pleads to go, for some other Kingsguard to stay by Aerys, but Rhaegar dares nor deprive Aerys of the "crutch" of thinking Lord Tywin cannot betray him.

[aspasia]

I agree wholeheartedly that Jaime was characterized primarily by thoughtlessness before losing his hand, and that loss has been the catalyst of his learning to think before acting. He is, in a word, maturing. He has been an impulsive boy, led around by his cock; he entered the Kingsguard because Cersei insisted he do so in order to be near her, his initial reluctance overcome by a nights-long screw-fest.

So we are seeing a narrative arc of maturation combined with a redemption motif; the man comes to grips with the moral realities of his deeds and tries to work out a liveable ethic. He is realizing the shallowness of moral cartoons like the wicked Kingslayer (which he has played as a role) and his opposite "Goldenhand the Just." The world he inhabits is too complex for those to be possible heroes or villains. Honor is a complicated thing, far more complicated than a Ned Stark could assimilate. It's far from clear to me that Jaime does, or even should, condemn his father as a dishonorable or evil man. He did horrible things; but that is not the same, in a world where some horrors prevent others, and there is no responsible option leaving your hands clean. I look forward to seeing how Jaime's ethic develops. Will he see it as his responsibility to defend his sister, despite what he now knows about her nature? How much of the rule of Westeros will Jaime end up thinking is his responsibility now that Tywin is dead? He knows that power entails responsibility, so it will be interesting to see whether he makes efforts to retain or increase his own power and that of his House.

[Gaston de Foix]

Those who read Jaime's destination at the end of AFFC as at least initially Casterly Rock (as I believe), why do you think he is going there and will he be successful?

[C.T. Phipps]

Those who read Jaime's destination at the end of AFFC as at least initially Casterly Rock (as I believe), why do you think he is going there and will he be successful?

It's reasonably as close to a Happy ending as he'll get, though I suspect that Jamie will probably die for all of his sins and the simple fact that pardoning him would be unconscionable to anyone in Westeros who hate him for goodness knows how many evil deeds.

Certainly, he'll never be a Kingsguard.

[Socrtes Snow]

But toward the last few chapters of FFC we see that he is beginning to act intelligently as well. He cannot use his sword as the key to all problems, so he has to use his brain. He is beginning to.

I think this is the best summary of Jamie personal journey in AFFC

Jamie seems to have gone on an existentialist journey of his personal identity.

[FTWard]

Jaime remembers being knighted by Arthur Dayne on the field of battle, and in Feast, he remembers his all-night vigil and Ser Arthur Dayne knighting him at dawn (with Dawn!)

Hello All. Brand new poster here.

Sorry if this is answered somewhere. I did try and search for it.

Who is Jamie remembering standing vigil for when he was 15?

Thanks much in advance!

[the average Other]

Hello All. Brand new poster here.

Sorry if this is answered somewhere. I did try and search for it.

Who is Jamie remembering standing vigil for when he was 15?

Thanks much in advance!

Standing vigil for someone who's dead is not the same thing as standing vigil before being knighted. The latter means spending the night in the sept in contemplation, a sort of a purification rite before becoming a knight.