Best Fighters of Westeros

[SerArthurHeath]

Yes I agree, but my point is that from a PoV basis in a book, you can see what characters truly feel and believe and get information across that way. Without voiceovers you cannot do that in a tv medium and in the show we will have not seen Jaime fight for ages after this season nor understand his inter turmoil at being maimed and the last action we will see will be him losing in a sword fight to a woman. We have seen things from Jaime's PoV in terms of him being portrayed more sympathetically than the book but that is from an omniscient 3rd person perspective which has advantages in giving us more spoken and visual information but the disadvantage of being inherently unable to share things from a mental perspective. So we need to see things because we cannot rely on the presumably insightful thoughts of our characters. Not that the fight scene will make it impossible to portray Jaime's loss as significantly as the book, but it has, IMO, been made much harder work and will require extra scenes. If you watch a (even large for actress standards) acting woman (and typically they tend to err on the pretty and smaller side not brutish and large) use brute strength to beat a man who you have not established as a great fighter in a fair fight, you are automatically going to assume the man is shit at fighting. Even if people later say he is amazing you are going to say, "no, he's weaker than that average looking woman who kicked his arse". In a book, inner thoughts of both Jaime and Brienne and reactions of other knights etc can overcome this and the slower more descriptive and reflective form of that medium allows us to see how JAime was handicapped and how closely matched fight can be. That is not an option on tv

[oba]

Yes I agree, but my point is that from a PoV basis in a book, you can see what characters truly feel and believe and get information across that way. Without voiceovers you cannot do that in a tv medium and in the show we will have not seen Jaime fight for ages after this season nor understand his inter turmoil at being maimed and the last action we will see will be him losing in a sword fight to a woman. We have seen things from Jaime's PoV in terms of him being portrayed more sympathetically than the book but that is from an omniscient 3rd person perspective which has advantages in giving us more spoken and visual information but the disadvantage of being inherently unable to share things from a mental perspective. So we need to see things because we cannot rely on the presumably insightful thoughts of our characters. Not that the fight scene will make it impossible to portray Jaime's loss as significantly as the book, but it has, IMO, been made much harder work and will require extra scenes. If you watch a (even large for actress standards) acting woman (and typically they tend to err on the pretty and smaller side not brutish and large) use brute strength to beat a man who you have not established as a great fighter in a fair fight, you are automatically going to assume the man is shit at fighting. Even if people later say he is amazing you are going to say, "no, he's weaker than that average looking woman who kicked his arse". In a book, inner thoughts of both Jaime and Brienne and reactions of other knights etc can overcome this and the slower more descriptive and reflective form of that medium allows us to see how JAime was handicapped and how closely matched fight can be. That is not an option on tv

I don't know. I'm not worried that they haven't shown Jaime to be good enough with a sword through episode 5 of season 1 that, at some point in presumably season 3 the audience may think Jaime's not a good fighter because he's losing to a woman. I think it's a tad too early in the game to start Monday morning quarterbacking that one. Just my $.02.

ETA: Particularly when, as I keep pointing out, we as readers hadn't seen any real evidence of Jaime's great skill with a sword to this point in the story, either.

[SerArthurHeath]

I'm sure it will be fine as long as they show whispering wood. If they follow the book approach and just talk about it after, there are not any canon chances to show that. And then I will be worried, because it is an important aspect of his character. I can't tmi k they'd miss a chance to show a canon additional combat scene though

[SerFelixCulpa]

As readers, we didn't get Jaime's POV until Book 3. Viewers have, IMO, been given at least as much evidence of his skill with a sword as we readers were given by an equivalent point in Book 1.

More so by a substantial margin in fact, I would say.

[oba]

More so by a substantial margin in fact, I would say.

Yeah, in the books Jaime really doesn't get too many "on-screen" opportunities to shine. We don't actually get to see him in the Whispering Wood. We don't see him in Book 2 when he gets a sword and tries to cut his way out of Riverrun. All we really get is Jaime getting unhorsed by the Hound and the fight with Brienne . . . neither of which is exactly his finest hour. LOL.

[Talleyrand]

I'm sure it will be fine as long as they show whispering wood. If they follow the book approach and just talk about it after, there are not any canon chances to show that. And then I will be worried, because it is an important aspect of his character. I can't tmi k they'd miss a chance to show a canon additional combat scene though

I'd like to see the whispering wood but i'm wondering how they would get the scale of it. But i hope that they don't give Robb a skill upgrade and make him have a duel with Jaime like they did Eddard

[Talleyrand]

Also Seppuku, i'm confused to why you think that because the show has Ned hold his own against Jaime this make book Ned good. They are two separate characters in separate cannons.

[Røyksopp]

Still don't see Lyn as anything special, yet I've seen a few posts about his swordsmanship and these same posts carry a general vibe that it's somewhat obvious. Isn't the only feat he accomplished worth mentioning the slaying of Lewyn Martell? Kingsguard, yeah, but wasn't he, like, really fucked-up when Lyn slew him?

[Dremora]

Considering Jamie is chained when he fights Brieene and manages to put up a good fight till she starts drowning him lol, I don't think viewers will think "he sucks he got beaten up by a woman", especially since she will have already have beaten Loras before that.

[Free Northman]

I'd put Iron Emmett up there somewhere amongst the top guys.

[Free Northman]

Something else that I've noticed.

A lot of these guys are rated as top fighters, but half the time they take blows on their heavy armor - which means they actually weren't able to parry them in time.

Now that tells me that if you took two naked figthers and stuck a sword in each one's hand, then Sandor and Gregor and Jaime and Arthur Dayne wouldn't stand a chance against a Connor Mcleod Highlander type of fighter.

Basically I'm saying that if your opponent gets past your parry, then he is really a better swordsman than you. This over reliance on heavy armor means that some guys are rated better fighters than they really are.

Sure it's the fighting style that everyone uses in Westeros, but in that case their actual SWORDMANSHIP is poorer than someone like Strong Belwas, and lightyears behind someone like Syrio Forell.

The best SWORDSMAN is the guy who is able to hit the other guy and block all of his counterstrikes. Not the guy who lets the other guy hit his armor 4 times and then scores a lucky hit when the other guy's sword gets stuck in his shield.

In light of the above, I also question whether armor which is light enough to at least allow you to move around in, will really save you from a full swing strike from a longsword. All these guys who shrug off swordstrikes just because they're wearing armor (like Victarion Greyjoy against that Reach Lord on the ship), well, is that really realistic? To me that Reachlord was a way better swordsman than Victarion, but Martin just made Victarion ignore about 2 swordstrikes that should have killed him.

Or what?

[SerArthurHeath]

No- you can move around in full plate, apparently, with not too much reduction in mobility at all and you basically cannot penetrate it with a sword slash at all except in the joints

[SerArthurHeath]

Also, I'm pretty sure when you saw Brienne and Jaime fight, neither was in plate and Jaime was not armoured. Ditto when he fought as a squire in Kingswood (squires don't wear plate) and mail won't necessarily turn a sword - it'll take the edge but you'd still suffer blunt trauma like a broken limb. Also the best swordsman isn't the one who can avoid being hit - taking blows in boxing is an ability that helps you win and that's all that matters in any combat form. The fact that armour has disadvantages and they overcome this means that the best fighter can only be said to the one man still standing at the end of a 2 person combat. You can say "well what if neither had armour?" but equally one could say "what if they both had to fight with axes, or spears, or in armour and on horseback?" you can't apply restrictions to what counts as the conditions for the best fighter- the conditions are whatever each character would want to have and would have at their disposal if they met in battle.

[Hnim]

Something else that I've noticed.

A lot of these guys are rated as top fighters, but half the time they take blows on their heavy armor - which means they actually weren't able to parry them in time.

Now that tells me that if you took two naked figthers and stuck a sword in each one's hand, then Sandor and Gregor and Jaime and Arthur Dayne wouldn't stand a chance against a Connor Mcleod Highlander type of fighter.

Basically I'm saying that if your opponent gets past your parry, then he is really a better swordsman than you. This over reliance on heavy armor means that some guys are rated better fighters than they really are.

Sure it's the fighting style that everyone uses in Westeros, but in that case their actual SWORDMANSHIP is poorer than someone like Strong Belwas, and lightyears behind someone like Syrio Forell.

The best SWORDSMAN is the guy who is able to hit the other guy and block all of his counterstrikes. Not the guy who lets the other guy hit his armor 4 times and then scores a lucky hit when the other guy's sword gets stuck in his shield.

In light of the above, I also question whether armor which is light enough to at least allow you to move around in, will really save you from a full swing strike from a longsword. All these guys who shrug off swordstrikes just because they're wearing armor (like Victarion Greyjoy against that Reach Lord on the ship), well, is that really realistic? To me that Reachlord was a way better swordsman than Victarion, but Martin just made Victarion ignore about 2 swordstrikes that should have killed him.

Or what?

Armor is the way people fought back then. The best swordsman is the one who can kill the other. People fought in a way that would allow them to get hit because if you weren't wearing plate armor, you would be at an enormous disadvantage. Also, the image of armor being enormously debilitating to movement is a myth, a full suit of plate weighed significantly less than an infantryman's modern gear, and there have been documents of knights doing handstands in full armor. Heat is another thing, as it did in fact get quite hot in there. Anyway, a suit of plate is more or less sword proof except at the joints.

[King Ned Stark]

My own opinion, sorry if this has been delved into, I'm not reading twenty-something pages worth of posts. There is a lot that goes into a fight: size, skill, strength, speed, skill, armor, and need.

Assuming this is anyone who lived in Ned's lifetime.

Plain clothes and weapons, Syrio beats Gregor handily if there is no armor worn. If there is armor, then he loses, eventually.

Who can overcome all odds? Who is deadly regardless of foe, and their advantage or disadvantage?

Arthur Dayne

Qhorin Halfhand

Oberyn Martell

The Smiling Knight

Robert Baratheon

Sandor Clegane

Barristan Selmy

Darkstar

Jaime Lannister

Bronn

Greatjon

Gregor Clegane

[AquariumDrinker]

In light of the above, I also question whether armor which is light enough to at least allow you to move around in, will really save you from a full swing strike from a longsword. All these guys who shrug off swordstrikes just because they're wearing armor (like Victarion Greyjoy against that Reach Lord on the ship), well, is that really realistic? To me that Reachlord was a way better swordsman than Victarion, but Martin just made Victarion ignore about 2 swordstrikes that should have killed him.

Here is a cut and paste from the wiki page on the German School of Fencing. It cover primarily the longsword(bastard sword).

Combat in full plate armour made use of the same weapons as Blossfechten(unarmored fighting), the longsword and dagger (possibly in special make optimized for piercing the openings in armour), but the techniques were entirely different. Attacking an opponent in plate armour offers two basic possibilities: percussive force, or penetration at joints or unprotected areas. Penetration was extremely unlikely even with thrusting attacks. Percussion was realized with the Mordstreich, attacks with the hilt holding the sword at the blade, and penetration into openings of the armour with the Halbschwert, which allowed stabbing attacks with increased precision. From the evidence of the Fechtbücher, most armoured fights were concluded by wrestling moves, with one combatant falling to the ground. Lying on the ground, he could then be easily killed with a stab into his visor or another opening of the armour.

The books don't show a complete parallel with historical European martial arts. The biggest difference is that European knights in full plate did not carry shields... they didnt need them as much as they needed two hands to damage the enemy and the armor was good enough to make the shield not needed. Full plate armor is generally accepted as being sword proof.

Here is an interesting video of two men in full plate fighting. The fight is a bit hard to follow, but it ends with the point of a longsword pointing at the groin of one of the fighters in a move described in the wiki as the 'Halbschwert', or 'half-sword'.

Harnischfechten-Armoured Free Play

edited to add a video of the unarmored version German Longsword Fencing, it is interesting to see the difference.

Unarmored fighting

[Mike]

I'd put Iron Emmett up there somewhere amongst the top guys.

Why?

[Free Northman]

Why?

Because he consistently gave Jon a whipping when they sparred. He is the best swordsman at the Wall, after Halfhand's death. He just appears to be a very skillful young swordsman. And from the looks of it the Night's Watch does weapon training almost every day - in fact, they appear to be the closest thing to professional soldiers in the entire Realm. Contrast that to knights who prance around in their cloaks and armour all day long and seem to do actual weapons practice maybe once a week.

[Rodrik the Reader]

Actually, knights and men-at-arms are just as "close" to professional soldiers as rangers of the Night's Watch. Indeed, knights are the elite soldiers of their society; as opposed to sellswords and most men-at-arms, they have received martial training from master-at-arms since boyhood.

Either way, knights and men-at-arms hone their skill at arms essentially every day, when they are able - just as the Night's Watch rangers presumably does.

By the way, Iron Emmett didn't consistently thrash Jon in their sparring matches - at least, Jon didn't think so (he liked to think that he usually gave as good as he got in their bouts).

[wolfeyoung]

Here is an interesting video of two men in full plate fighting. The fight is a bit hard to follow, but it ends with the point of a longsword pointing at the groin of one of the fighters in a move described in the wiki as the 'Halbschwert', or 'half-sword'.

Harnischfechten-Armoured Free Play

edited to add a video of the unarmored version German Longsword Fencing, it is interesting to see the difference.

Unarmored fighting

Thank you for the videos. Pretty cool and interesting. This makes me believe that Robert was more of a badass than before. Why? Since you can't cut through armor, Robert would just crush you in your armor instead, requiring the jaws of life to get you out even if you didn't die. And as far as wrestling, well, Robert wins there against most of the top fights (except Gregor). He was big and strong.