NFL Thread II

[aeu]

I'm confused. I was under the impression that he "came clean" because he got caught, not by drug tests but rather when he was purchasing the drugs. If that's the case, how does that make him any better than the scores of other athletes who have come clean after they were caught in the act?

yeah. I guess he could have used the "I bought it but never used it" line (someone has used that recently, no?)

But honestly, he wasn't exactly in a position to deny.

[Stego]

Im no "character guy", but I'll say this, you put a pill in my face that would allow me to compete in the NFL at a high level, my only question is where can I find a glass of water.

I can't really argue with this. It would make me a hypocrite.

[EHK for Darwin]

Its always a good debate Cal and one you don't see batted around quite as much as you should. (at least in the circles that matter for deciding those things) Most start from the presumption that they're illegal for consumer use, shouldn't be allowed, and don't move much from that point. 'What is so bad about steroids' strikes me as a pretty damned fair question. Doesn't cause NEAR the level and amount of social ills that 'real' drugs do. Worse long term health effects can be found in alot of other legal shit. A 'moderate' roid taking athlete (doesn't even have to be pro) is probably still healthier and in better shape now and in the future than your average couch potato. In football especially most will probably suffer more in the future from the sport they played rather than the pills they popped.

Of course if they were legalized, there would be one hell of a coersive pressure on every pro and would be pro athlete to take them by the boatload. I'm not partial to 'what about the children' arguments, but even an 18 and over label wouldn't stop High School consumption from skyrocketing as well. Too many players would be forced to endure the long term effects of MASSIVE steroid use to have any sort of pro career. Its not like a normal drug where the only vested interest is 'feeling good' and 'liesure'. Steroid use would be directly tied to their salary, long term career prospects, and just making a living in general. Say I'm already good enough to get a 5 million a year contract. If steroids can get me 7 or 8...I'll say fuck the future for another few million. I'm sure many others would too.

And I think because of that coersive pressure, its fair to ban them in organized professional sports. Its simply asking too much to say that 'if you want to play at this level, you have to be willing to die by 50.' (which any glance at the WWE will tell you its a distinct possibility)

As for HGH specifically, I'm not sure about the actual health issues involved. If there are none, I can't say that I'd be honestly against it. But I'm fairly sure there are.

[Rockroi]

If that's the case, how does that make him any better than the scores of other athletes who have come clean after they were caught in the act?

You mean like Landis and Merrimen (both who claim they had false possitives)?

Really try to understand, I'm not condoning what he did- its indefensible. Harrison did not test possitive; his name came up in an investigation. Unlike Evender Holyfield (his telephone number next to the name "Evan Fields" found with a notorious steroiod provider), Harrison didn't try to deny it. I know that the Feds could have him "dead to rights" but that has not stopped other atheletes from denying it (to this day, Gary Sheffield admits he took the Cream and the Clear, but denies taking steroids because - swear to God -he claims 'steroids are something you take in the butt.").

Do I "understand" what he did? Absolutey. Frusteration + Oppertunity = Bad Decisions. What I find funny is that he, last season, said he would like to be an NFL official. High Comedy.

EHK:

The issue with steroids and HGH is that they help the human body recover faster from trauma- and weight lifting is a form of trauma. Moreover, some sterodis actually help you perform better- read Game of Shadows and it will show how some steroids actually DO HELP hand-eye coordination. Are they as bad as other illegal drugs? No. But does that make them 'good?' And when you deal in a competitive environment, if sterodis were legal its actually an invitation to disaster as the human body was not meant to be put under those types of strains- injuries would go up as would catastrophic injuries (bigger, stronger athelets going faster at one another). This says NOTHING of the impact it has on the legitimacy of the game- which team is better: the team with the better players, or the team with the better pharmacy?

At that point, its not a sport, its a science project.

[Ser Paladin]

To the Aussie poster upthread... Sav Rocca is an NFL punter for the Eagles. Booming leg on the guy.

[BLU-RAY]

I think the reason steroids are illegal is what EHK said, if you allow them to be legal, they instantly become the norm. Instead of being an "beyond the call of duty" thing, they become the absolute minimum; if you're not on roids, you're going to have problems; either you won't be strong enough to play your position, or say you're a running back whose speed is prized above strength, suddenly you're getting hammered on every play by roided-out linebackers. Plus, the pressure to take them in college and high school would skyrocket, meaning that either 1) folks who have no professional chances have to start taking them anyway, just to compete in high school and college games or 2) the gap between the best few teams and the rest at the collegiate and high school levels increases to an absolutely ludicrous point. If you have a bunch of blue-chip NFL-prospect-laden teams (say USC) playing a team with maybe a few NFL prospects (say Oregon State, or something), either the OSU players take roids with almost no shot to play at the professional level... or they stop losing to USC 35-10 and start losing 77-3, and cease to be even close to competitive.

[Analu]

Long story short, in the NFC, and especially the NFC West, I haven't seen much this preseason that would lead me to believe SF doesn't have a chance.

True, but I've come to the conclusion even before the season starts that Hostler is in way over his head and will be a terrible O-coordinator. Obviously hoping I get to eat my words here, but the SD game combined with the Bears game has me pretty depressed.

The way Del Rio has jerked him around just strikes me as unilaterally slimy. He's screwed Leftwich's chances to land on with another team, learn the playbook quickly and maybe win a chance to start or at least be a competent backup. Was Del Rio this big of an ass on purpose?

Don't think I agree with this. In fact, seems like the opposite to me. Leftwich was Del Rio's guy: the QB he drafted and the guy who he stuck with for four years. He even tried to give Leftwich confidence before training camp started by stating that he was the starter, despite having been outplayed by Garrard last year. DR gave him every chance to show that he should be the starting QB this year, but when you're being outplayed that badly by Garrard, don't see any other choice.

And they cut him because it saved them 5 million or something, not to jerk him around by not letting him sign on to another team. I don't really care about Jax at all, but I think you're misreading this, Jaime.

[Jaime L]

Don't think I agree with this. In fact, seems like the opposite to me. Leftwich was Del Rio's guy: the QB he drafted and the guy who he stuck with for four years. He even tried to give Leftwich confidence before training camp started by stating that he was the starter, despite having been outplayed by Garrard last year. DR gave him every chance to show that he should be the starting QB this year, but when you're being outplayed that badly by Garrard, don't see any other choice.

And they cut him because it saved them 5 million or something, not to jerk him around by not letting him sign on to another team. I don't really care about Jax at all, but I think you're misreading this, Jaime.

Makaha,

I don't care much about Jacksonville either. But I was blown away that Leftwich was let go now with no available recourse.

PFT's take:

A league source with knowledge of the front-office dynamics in Jacksonville tells us that the abrupt decision to dump quarterback Byron Leftwich reflects that coach Jack Del Rio has won, for now, an ongoing power struggle with V.P. of player personnel James Harris.

Though no one in the organization is talking about the move, the source explained the situation to us like this:

"I think what happened is [owner Wayne] Weaver decided to side with Del Rio over Harris regarding Leftwich. I'm not sure if it's monetary or playing skills, probably both. No one claims to really know the reasoning. Leftwich's comments two weeks ago probably didn't help."

Earlier this month, Leftwich carped publicly about the events of last season, during which a vague ankle injury to Leftwich prompted Del Rio to take him out of the starting lineup, even as Leftwich claimed he wasn't hurt.

"You got to understand it's an environment that we created ourselves," Leftwich said. "I don't think the environment has nothing to do really with me and Dave [Garrard]. I think it has something to do with the way things [have] been handled in the past."

Added the source: "I have got to think that this will absolutely destroy whatever relationship Del Rio and Harris had. It started great but has gone steadily downhill. Byron's been at the center of it. Last draft, Del Rio pushed hard for a quarterback but was rebuffed by Harris. That muddied the waters even more."

The biggest loser in all of this, in our view, is Leftwich. He could have found a new home in the offseason if the team had let him know what it had planned to do, and he would have had a chance to compete to be the starting quarterback somewhere else. Instead, Leftwich will be hard pressed to see any playing time in 2007, unless he lands on a team that has an ineffective starter -- or gets the nod due to injury.

"The timing is awful," the source said.

John Clayton's take:

The stunner is the timing. How do you go through a training camp and four pre-season games preparing one quarterback and then making a switch at the end? Unless he was handcuffed by ownership or management, Del Rio should have given Garrard the job from the start of the season. Del Rio yanked the starting job from Leftwich last year using Leftwich's chronic ankle problems as the reason.

That's the thing, I'm wrong about this, I'm not alone. You say Garrard played better, but he was clearly inferior to Leftwich's from the year prior and basically equivalent to how Leftwich played in '06 pre-injury:

Garrard's '06 Numbers:

CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT RAT

145 241 1735 60.2 7.20 49 10 9 80.5

Letwich's '05 Numbers

175 302 2123 57.9 7.0 45 15 5 89.3

Leftwich's '06 Numbers (6 games) for good measure

108 183 1159 59.0 6.3 51 7 5 79.0

And this is with the emergence of MJD and a very, very good running game that Garrard primarily benefited from. Del Rio didn't even let Leftwich sniff the lineup after the knee injury. Think it goes a way to explaining why they missed the playoffs last year after going 12-4 primarily with Leftwich. Leftwich isn't great. He's never been anything more than adequate. But Garrard has not shown to be any better. And it's not like he wins more.

Even in this preseason he hasn't really outplayed Leftwich. Leftwich had about 220+ Yds and a TD playing against first teamers. Garrard had 450+ yards and a TD playing against second teamers. What does that tell me? Absolutely nothing. The fact that that's definitive proof to keep one and cut the other screams "grudge" to me. And the timing screws Leftwich. Maybe Del Rio's right and Garrard is ultimately the better QB, but I'm hoping the karma of this comes around to bite him.

[Stubby]

To the Aussie poster upthread... Sav Rocca is an NFL punter for the Eagles. Booming leg on the guy.

Cheers for that mate. I've been off and found the article now. I don't think the Eagles will be disappointed with Sav. Like you say, he has a massive leg. But he was all kinds of hard in his AFL career as well.

[Analu]

That's the thing, I'm wrong about this, I'm not alone.

You could be right. I haven't had a chance to read PFT or Clayton's take on it until your post. But I'll take a shot at a couple of things you pointed out:

You say Garrard played better, but he was clearly inferior to Leftwich's from the year prior and basically equivalent to how Leftwich played in '06 pre-injury:

Garrard's '06 Numbers:

CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT RAT

145 241 1735 60.2 7.20 49 10 9 80.5

Letwich's '05 Numbers

175 302 2123 57.9 7.0 45 15 5 89.3

Leftwich's '06 Numbers (6 games) for good measure

108 183 1159 59.0 6.3 51 7 5 79.0

To me, the key to what you just said is "pre-injury". He's coming off a major injury, and couple that with a terrible preseason, I don't think it's a stretch to say that Garrard played/is playing better. Throw out the '05 numbers when Leftwich was healthy (or as healthy as he ever gets), and Garrrard's numbers seem a wee bit better, IMO.

It's hard to tell how QBs are going to come back from injuries: for every Brees there's a Culpepper. But from his preseason, it didn't look like Leftwich had gotten any better with his accuracy, and it wasn't all that great even when he was healthy.

Leftwich isn't great. He's never been anything more than adequate. But Garrard has not shown to be any better. And it's not like he wins more.

Even in this preseason he hasn't really outplayed Leftwich. Leftwich had about 220+ Yds and a TD playing against first teamers. Garrard had 450+ yards and a TD playing against second teamers. What does that tell me? Absolutely nothing. The fact that that's definitive proof to keep one and cut the other screams "grudge" to me. And the timing screws Leftwich. Maybe Del Rio's right and Garrard is ultimately the better QB, but I'm hoping the karma of this comes around to bite him.

The difference is Garrard's about 4 million dollars cheaper. And he's more mobile and healthier. I guess we'll see pretty soon what the whole story was, but I still don't see it as Del Rio being some snake in the grass who intentionally dropped Leftwich in the last week just to fuck him over. But I'll concede if I'm wrong about it.

I can't believe we're debating about the Jaguars. Christ, the season really can't start soon enough for me

[Jaime L]

The difference is Garrard's about 4 million dollars cheaper. And he's more mobile and healthier. I guess we'll see pretty soon what the whole story was, but I still don't see it as Del Rio being some snake in the grass who intentionally dropped Leftwich in the last week just to fuck him over.

Fair enough.

I can't believe we're debating about the Jaguars. Christ, the season really can't start soon enough for me

Something went horribly wrong.

Four. Days. Left.

[Space Bandito]

I found myself getting excited about the third string QB and following the formation of the practice squad. I just think it is a combination of all the Pac Man/Vick crap and all the Moss/Free agent hype that I am just so ready for this season to start.

[EHK for Darwin]

I can't believe we're debating about the Jaguars. Christ, the season really can't start soon enough for me

Eh...I actually kind of like it when there's something interesting to discuss about any team beyond the usual suspects. (in any sport for that matter) Breaks up the usual Bears/Colts/Patriots/Vick and a few others shit. (Or Cubs/Yanks/Boston in the baseball threads)

[Space Bandito]

No one has mentioned the Raiders still have not signed Russell. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I wonder if Leftwich will end up there.

[Bazzlebane]

They are somehow working up an enthusiasm for Daunte Culpepper. My Raider-obsessed-friend actually drafted Culpepper in our fantasy football league. And not in the last round.

[Andrik the Unsmiling]

True, but I've come to the conclusion even before the season starts that Hostler is in way over his head and will be a terrible O-coordinator. Obviously hoping I get to eat my words here, but the SD game combined with the Bears game has me pretty depressed.

I agree, I've been underwhelmed by his work in the preseason. That said, I'm going to wait and see how he calls a game that actually counts before I pass judgment. Basically, though, San Diego really screwed us over by waiting so long to fire Marty Schottenheimer. By the time they made the decision to hire Norv, it was too late for Nolan to interview anyone from another NFL teams (head coaches can block their assistants for interviewing for non-head coaching jobs with other franchises, and did so when the Niners came calling).

As I see it, Hostler was making the best of a bad situation and is essentially a shot in the dark. Maybe we get lucky and he turns out to be a competent guy at the helm... right now, I don't think anyone can really be sure how he'll do.

Any chance the Chiefs make a run at Leftwich? That would seem to be one place where he really might have a chance to see some playing time.

[Third Knight on the Left]

I think your overlooking Gerards running ability Jaime.

[Space Bandito]

The Patriots released their leading receiver "Crack Eyes" Caldwell today. Moss was also seen at practice.

[CelticBrennus]

Looks like both Moss and Samuel and TE's Kyle Brady and Dave Thomas are back in practice for NE, while Seymour is out for the first 6 games on the PUP list as is Troy Brown.

It is going to be interesting to see how this D looks on opening day. I imagine that it will be Hobbs and Samuel at CB, with Wilson and Sanders at safety. Colvin and Vrabel at OLB, with Bruschi and Thomas at ILB, and Jarvis Green taking over Big Sey's spot.

I wonder if the team will move Thomas to OLB and Seau to ILB to start with against the Chargers in week 2 to minimize the loss suffered by not having Seymour in the D line. I dont know if Green can command the double team like Seymour can, and having a huge body like Thomas at OLD (only 10 lbs lighter then Green IIRC) could help neutralize the outside runs by LdT. He didnt do as well going through the middle, and seemed to avoid the Colvin/Warren side of the D, preferring to abuse the craptastic Banta-Cain and the injured Seymour last year.

God, I cannot wait for the season to start.

Edited to add:

I was poking around on CHFF and noticed a poster over there put this up there regarding the schedules of the top 4 AFC teams

IND - NE, @SD, @BAL

NE - SD, @IND, @BAL

BAL - @SD, NE, IND

SD - @NE, IND, BAL

Its kinda scary to see the 4 AFC teams that everyone thinks should range from good to damn f-ing good are all playing each other. This sort of scares the crap out of me. If all of them play one another they could very well beat each other up so much that it lets someone else slip in. And, it also makes every one of those games be critically important as a potential tiebreaker.

[Ser Paladin]

IND - NE, @SD, @BAL

NE - SD, @IND, @BAL

BAL - @SD, NE, IND

SD - @NE, IND, BAL

Its kinda scary to see the 4 AFC teams that everyone thinks should range from good to damn f-ing good are all playing each other.

They do that every year.

You get 6 games against your division, 4 games against a division in another conference, and 4 games against all the teams in a division in your conference, for a total of 14 games.

Then, the last 2 games are against the teams who finished with the same position in the other 2 conferences in your division. So, the Pats play 2 AFC division winners, and the 3rd division winner automatically, as they play one whole AFC division.

It's why I am expecting great things from the Broncos. They get a 3rd place schedule despite a 9-7 record last year.