Malazan

[duchess of malfi]

Deeply developed characters is not a strength of Erikson's. Though in the rare cases where he does develop a character, such as Felisin, he does a great job of it. 90% of his characters never go beyond the cardboard cutout stage with me.

edited for spelling

[Jaz]

It's possible to start the series from Deadhouse Gates, or Midnight Tides, which are both much better written. Gardens of the Moon was written years before the others, and it shows.

[Gormenghast]

It's possible to start the series from Deadhouse Gates, or Midnight Tides, which are both much better written. Gardens of the Moon was written years before the others, and it shows.

For someone who isn't going to survive the first book starting from the second may be a good idea. But that second book is littered with references that you would miss completely if you didn't read from the beginning. And all those connections are what make the books so interesting.

I also don't agree that Erikson's characters are weak. They are as strong as the rest of the much praised fantasy. The difference is in the exposition. Erikson doesn't hand out all the details, including character development. Most of what happens in the characters isn't directly and throughly exposed and this makes a lot of reader think that there wasn't any development at all, or that the development didn't make sense.

Since the exposition isn't so through and focused, you miss a lot if you don't pay attention to the details.

[Jaz]

Well the first book doesn't explain it's many references either so they're equal on that point.

[caladanbrood]

It's certainly not an easy book to read. You have to work hard with Gardens... and you have to accept the fact that a lot of stuff won't be explained, even for several books afterwards.

Some people find it very hard to do that, and interpret that as bad writing. It's not bad, it's just... unusual

[Guy Kilmore]

It looks like Cotillion and Shadowthrone wanted to start a chain of events to create a whole bunch of new gods/ascendants and awaken some old gods/ascendants. That's all part of the beginning of the larger plot, if there really is one.

These might be spoliers

SPOILER: Mazalan

I get the feeling that Shadowthrone and Cotillion's goal when they were mortal was to create stability and some feeling of order. He came up with an idea of how an Empire is supposed to run and end the tribal fighting that goes on around the world. (The 2nd book talks about this a little bit, about how Mazalan rule works and whatnot.) He realized that as a mortal, he could never do this, it would put him up against too many Ascendants. He saw a path to power through sitting on the throne of the first empire and gaining control of the Logros Tel'am Imass (butchered spelling) and when he and Cotillion traveled the Azath's.

I believe that it is Shadowthrone's goal to unite all the various realms to one being, this one being able to set boundaries on all, but allows them to exist in their own right. He is basically doing this to end the conflict throughout the various cultures.

Each warren has a throne, that throne is a center of power. I remember reading the phrase, "he intends to sit his boney ass on each throne" or something along those lines. I think this is why he needed the older powers to awaken and why he is conflict with the Crippled God. I think the Crippled God intends pretty much the same thing.

There are three realms that appear interconnected with everything, the Elder God Krull (sp?) who is the father of magic (Name escapes me, the Crippled God who is chained to Burn, and the Shadow Realm. Shadowthrone's and the Crippled God's warren are part of fragments of this realm. The battle is really to control this point between light and dark. Once that is done, then sway can be held over the other realms, it becomes a point of power. It is the newer realm born from two old and powerful realms. I think this is important on Erikson's take on things. It feels like that the newer races and whatnot can send the older beings reeling, they are an improvement. (Holds vs. Warrens as seen in Reaper's Gale).

I hope this rambling makes sense and I will be the first to acknowledge that it is not fully developed.

Gardens of the Moon is a funny book to me. Hated it first time through, I reread it after the 3rd book and it made a tons more sense to me and I enjoyed it more.

[Lyanna Stark]

Guy Kilmore:

That makes a lot of sense to me.

WARNING SPOILERS!!!!

SPOILER: Malazan

I totally agree that Shadowthrone and Cotillion saw farther than almost anyone else. Shadowthrone's amibtions seems bit like Caesar's to me: he really wants to create an empire of greatness and some sort of unity.

I'm convinced he must have understood at least part of the thread to the Malazan empire and, in some ways, the world and the warrens, although not completely.

I also love his ambiguous relationship with Laseen: nobody actually knows if she wasn't in some way an accomplice. Actually, Laseen's character is one of the most fascinating in the entire series. She is mostly off stage, but very often at the centre of what is happening due to her decisions or people's reactions to her decisions.

END SPOILERS!

[Guy Kilmore]

Lyanna,

SPOILER: Mazalan

I agree, Shadowthrone is alot like Caesar. (I didn't think of that at first, but as soon as you said it, there was that ding factor.) I also like Laseem's character, off screen, ambiguous, and yet influencing the decisions of a great many characters. (Even though, I do feel that she was a total moron for letting, whatshisname, the traitorous Fist gain so much power. I mean, it is that easy to usurp an emperess?)

Slight asside:

I was under the impression that the reason Shadowthrone and Cotillion were using the Bridgeburners is that they needed an army, so to speak, one that they could influence. With the High Mage, with a name that I am not even going to spell out, but I will call him Mr. T. With Mr T trying to destroy the bridgeburners, or more specifically Whiskeyjack, beneath Pale, I think Shadowthrone's goal was to proctect them and was striking at Laseem to do so. Once we learn that Laseem is fine with whatever it is they were doing, Shadowthrone and Cotillion back off. I always feel that Shadowthrone saw Laseem's actions as neccessary, but is really annoyed with her. (Kind of like a dentist that has to do a root canal, its gotta be done, gotta be done by him, but you still take that pain a little personally.)

I also think that the above was a retcon, but it works for me

[Errant Bard]

About GOTM and the rewarding layers: Remember that item around which the whole plot revolves, the Otataral sword? Well, Erikson just forgot about it and had to be reminded by his readers to finally resolve that thread in a satisfying manner. I am not making this up.

When I read that it told me everything I had to know about any planning or depth in the writing of TMBotF.

About Laseen and that high mage:

SPOILER: plot

I thought it was revealed around BH (or is it MoI?) that Laseen was actually working for Kellanved from the start, and that that high mage was actually protecting the Bridgeburners?

As for characters not really introduced that surprise you, as gormenghast says, I got an expression for that : Deus Ex Machina which, of course is synonymous of crimson guard but is most often translated by "ding, level up, I got new powers". Your mileage may obviously vary.

[Guy Kilmore]

Laseen and the High Mage,

SPOILER: Mazalan

I believe you are kinda right. I am at work and I don't have a book with me. Laseen taking out Kellenvad and Cotillion was I think an event orchestrated by Kellenvad. To Kellenvad, a neccessary evil, to Laseen, something desired. I think it was a play on some of the more crackpot Caesar histories I heard (Basically that Caesar wanted to die because of his seizures, so he purposefully caused the events that lead to his assassination, with the assassination as the intended goal. I caught it on the History Channel. TV is truth ).

I was under the impression that the Empress and the High Mage wanted the bridgeburners and Dujek's army intact, but were clearing out rivals to the throne. (The High Mage was acting as his own agent in this matter) Whiskeyjack, if I remember right, was always percieved as one of those rivals. And yes, Erikson's writing is disjointed at times, so I could be way off.

[AverageGuy]

SPOILER: Malazan

I got the impression Laseen really was trying to take out Kellanved and Dancer, but they, knowing this, ended up using her attack to become gods. Lasseen, through Tayschrenn (I think that's Mr. T's name), was attacking the Bridgeburners (and thus Whiskeyjack), but Tayschrenn at least claims that it was an attempt to keep the Tiste Andii from anihillating them all. In which case Tayschrenn may be lying, but now that Whiskeyjack's dead it's a moot point.

As for Kellanved's ultimate goal, I pretty much agree with Guy Kilmore. Though he may have gone insane after ascending, it's said in the books that Shadowthrone wants to become the King of every House/Hold around and then do nothing, which would effectively create some order and give humans some protection against gods without changing the cultures, pretty much exactly what he did with the Malazan Empire (this idea is impossible for a lot of reasons, but Erikson was an anthropologist and seems to like it). In the books it's impossible because the Crippled God has control of a piece of Kurald Emuhrlan and just might blow up the world, negating the whole purpose of all this, so he's using the Malazans to get some more control.

[Gormenghast]

So, up to what book I should read so I can unveil those black boxes?

[Errant Bard]

Bonehunters, I reckon.

[Guy Kilmore]

Bonehunters, I reckon.

I think some of Reaper's Gale too....just to be on the safe side.

Editted to Add: AverageGuy, you are correct on Mr. T's name (And now a side note on how I read fantasy, everytime I run across an odd name I can't remember, they get instantly renamed. Goodtimes.)

[Benjen Stark]

90% of it is safe to read after Memories of Ice. The last 10% is covered by Bonehunters. I'm reading Reaper's Gale now and nothing in the blacked out text was a surprise to me or a recent revelation.

As for a quick general review. If I accept that this is a stellar example of a D&D game that became a novel, it is incredibly entertaining. If I look at it as a high fantasy epic that should have a well scripted and consistent plot, it's a bit of a mess. Erikson's characters are often very entertaining, but not many of them are deep.

Several times last night, I couldn't explain to my small child why I was laughing, because it involved such things as someone eating the herbs someone else had been using for toilet paper (a comfrey brush, IIRC) and a soldier going on at length about wanting to make a pass at a woman only to have one of his compatriots eventually point out that she was an animated corpse... literally. It was complete with suggested pick up lines for zombies. Some people do not find Erikson's attempts at humor to be funny, but the books are mostly littered with them, which will help me tolerate less than perfect plotting and consistency.

[pat5150]

If you're a fan of Steven Erikson's A Tale of the Malazan Book of the Fallen, then like me you've been salivating at the sight of Michael Komarck's gorgeous art commissioned for the Subterranean Press limited edition of Gardens of the Moon (Canada, USA, Europe).

The artist keeps a very tight schedule, and assorted deadlines prevent him from reading every novel he needs to illustrate. Hence, he asked me to help him in that regard, and I thought it would be a good idea to invite the entire Malazan family to the dance.

Komarck would like us to tell him six of our favorite moments/scenes from Gardens of the Moon we would like to see in the limited edition. Please submit them in the comment section of the blog.

This will help him quite a bit, and the book will be out much more rapidly if the artist doesn't have to second-guess everything he's doing. The art we've seen thus far as been incredible, so you can now help select what is coming next!

P. S. It looks as though there will be a Michael Komarck giveaway. . .

Patrick

[Gormenghast]

Since I've finished it a week ago, I'll contribute.

[Commodore]

Ok I'm about 50 pages into the first book and I'm having trouble getting engaged in the story. I'll stick with it though.

[Commodore]

100 pages in and it's getting harder to follow, not easier. Once the siege of Pale starts there are a dozen names and places introduced on every page, no exageration.

There is a difference between not having a frame of reference for events, I can deal with that. But a bunch of dialogue about people and places with no explanation or context, makes for a very difficult read. I found myself more annoyed at the author the more I read.

[Shryke]

It's the way it goes. The book basically starts in the middle, because to a historian/anthropologist, there is no "beginning". Everything is based on the stuff that happened before it.

You'll start to get into it eventually. Just try and let go of your desire to understand everything EXACTLY and live with getting a general idea only of what some of the stuff mentioned means.

Like the magic system. Even at book 7 we only kind of understand how it works in general. You just gotta roll with it.