Larry. Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Don't forget that I was much more specific in the instructions on what was permissible, which probably influenced things a bit. The "female" bit is a possibility, although I am uncertain, really. Unless that's a roundabout way of saying that WoT has more female fans, which might influence the voting at wotmania? Possibly, but I'm unconvinced still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry. Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 I was pointed to a mistake I did; I left out Stephen King. He actually finished #6, dropping Wolfe to #11, if any really gives a damn about that :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Thursday Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 [quote name='Dylanfanatic' post='1379215' date='Jun 1 2008, 19.53']Don't forget that I was much more specific in the instructions on what was permissible, which probably influenced things a bit. The "female" bit is a possibility, although I am uncertain, really. Unless that's a roundabout way of saying that WoT has more female fans, which might influence the voting at wotmania? Possibly, but I'm unconvinced still.[/quote] I was trying to make sure I didn't say that WoT has more female fans, firstly because I don't know that that is true, and secondly because being female doesn't necessarily predispose you towards liking female authors. Rather, I was trying to assert that there are elements of Jordan's work that are closer to what I associate with the somewhat nebulous and poorly defined 'female style' of writing than the equivalents in Erikson's or Martin's. Sir Thursday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry. Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Although I hate this term and think it is misapplied often, you could have said fans of a "less gritty style" might gravitate more to WoT than to ____ ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Thursday Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 [quote name='Dylanfanatic' post='1379308' date='Jun 1 2008, 22.20']Although I hate this term and think it is misapplied often, you could have said fans of a "less gritty style" might gravitate more to WoT than to ____ ;)[/quote] The specific element I'm aiming at is not the 'grit' as such, but rather the way in which Jordan makes his characters interact with each other. Interpersonal conflicts occur for reasons and in fashions that you don't see in Erikson/Martin/Bakker, which give the books a slightly soap-operaish tinge. And that is something I only normally see in female authors' work. However, not having read Constantine, Hobb or Rawn (the highest ranked female authors on the Wotmania poll), I have no idea if that is something that can be said to exist in their works. Sir Thursday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry. Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Odd, since much of ASOIAF has a soap operaish feel to it, or rather, an "episodic" one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted June 2, 2008 Author Share Posted June 2, 2008 [quote name='Dylanfanatic' post='1379438' date='Jun 2 2008, 01.54']Odd, since much of ASOIAF has a soap operaish feel to it, or rather, an "episodic" one.[/quote] This is true. However, it has nothing on [b]WoT[/b] in that regard, where the romances and most of the other interpersonal relationships have all the complexity of a dinner-time soap opera. [b]ASoIaF[/b] is very much [b]Dynasty[/b] to [b]WoT[/b]'s [b]Hollyoaks[/b] (or, for an American audience, erm, I don't know :P [b]Sunset Beach[/b]?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry. Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 I think [i]Dallas[/i] would have been a more apt comparison in some ways ;) You could have said WoT as [i]The OC[/i], dumbed down a bit further :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted June 2, 2008 Author Share Posted June 2, 2008 [quote name='Dylanfanatic' post='1379486' date='Jun 2 2008, 03.12']I think [i]Dallas[/i] would have been a more apt comparison in some ways ;) You could have said WoT as [i]The OC[/i], dumbed down a bit further :P[/quote] [b]The OC[/b] was a limited series though, wasn't it? Mind you, so was [b]Dynasty[/b] now I think on it (although the Joan Collins = Cersei comparison is quite amusing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry. Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 All the ones we've mentioned were limited to a few seasons, although [i]Dynasty[/i] went over 10 years, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Thursday Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 [quote name='Dylanfanatic' post='1379438' date='Jun 2 2008, 01.54']Odd, since much of ASOIAF has a soap operaish feel to it, or rather, an "episodic" one.[/quote] See to me, Soap-operaish is the opposite of episodic. As I understand it, soap operas don't tend to have neat single episode plots, but rather story arcs that run through many episodes and shows that don't necessarily tie off the story (not that I've ever watched much/any soap opera, so I could be wrong). Episodic television, on the other hand, is geared to having a satisfyingish conclusion every week with at least one major subplot being resolved. Jordan started off with an episodic thing going on - at the end of each book, another Forsaken would be defeated. But as he started to lose his way, he stopped having the dramatic Forsaken kills to finish off the books and they descended into a looser narrative that was full of bitching and not very much happening - exactly what I associate with Soap Opera. Martin was kind of heading in that direction with AFFC, I felt, which was why I didn't like it so much. Sir Thursday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nephtis Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Reading just the last page of comments - regarding the theory that there are more female fans of the Wheel of Time and why that might be. I wouldn't be surprised if it's true, and here's my wild, crazy theory: women don't like reading about other women getting raped. If "gritty" equals random meaningless sexual violence against women (along with a society that subjugates & brutalizes women as a matter of course), then yes, count me out. On the other hand, I don't mind reading books with violence against men, sexual and otherwise - such as in books by Constantine, Monette, Lowachee, or Berg (yes... there's plenty of those). And if you find a graphic description of a man being raped enough to turn you off to the book entirely, then that's fair as well. RJ is absolutely kinder & more respectful to women than GRRM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted June 3, 2008 Author Share Posted June 3, 2008 [quote name='Nephtis' post='1380725' date='Jun 3 2008, 03.00']RJ is absolutely kinder & more respectful to women than GRRM.[/quote] Except that more named female characters in [b]WoT [/b]have been raped than in [b]ASoIaF[/b]. There is also a strong argument that Jordan presents his female characters as being, fairly frequently, morons, which is hardly being kind towards them. I disagree with this: I think that virtually all of Jordan's characters behave like morons at fairly regular intervals :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamjm Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 [quote name='Werthead' post='1379450' date='Jun 2 2008, 02.13'][b]ASoIaF[/b] is very much [b]Dynasty[/b] to [b]WoT[/b]'s [b]Hollyoaks[/b] (or, for an American audience, erm, I don't know :P [b]Sunset Beach[/b]?).[/quote] I think that's the sort of comparison they're unlikely to put on any cover blurbs ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='Werthead' post='1380734' date='Jun 2 2008, 21.09']Except that more named female characters in [b]WoT [/b]have been raped than in [b]ASoIaF[/b]. There is also a strong argument that Jordan presents his female characters as being, fairly frequently, morons, which is hardly being kind towards them. I disagree with this: I think that virtually all of Jordan's characters behave like morons at fairly regular intervals :P[/quote] I've read every Jordan book ever written, a couple times over, and I don't remember anyone getting raped anywhere in any of them. Please validate this statement. Female characters, and I'm sure a few males, have been raped in ASOIAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoë Sumra Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 [quote name='Ouroboros' post='1409477' date='Jun 21 2008, 16.17']Female characters, and I'm sure a few males, have been raped in ASOIAF.[/quote] AFAIK there is only one mention of male rape in ASOIAF - Danny Flint's rape and murder as part of the Rat Cook incident. (I know this not because I am detail-obsessed, although I am, but because I once made the rash statement that no men were ever raped in ASOIAF, and was proved wrong.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add-on Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 [quote name='Ouroboros' post='1409477' date='Jun 21 2008, 10.17']I've read every Jordan book ever written, a couple times over, and I don't remember anyone getting raped anywhere in any of them. Please validate this statement.[/quote] Well, for one, there was the Mesaana/Shaidar Haran scene. Other than that, I dunno. It's been a very long time since I read the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted July 9, 2008 Author Share Posted July 9, 2008 [quote name='Ouroboros' post='1409477' date='Jun 21 2008, 16.17']I've read every Jordan book ever written, a couple times over, and I don't remember anyone getting raped anywhere in any of them. Please validate this statement. Female characters, and I'm sure a few males, have been raped in ASOIAF.[/quote] Moghedien is raped by Shaidar Haran in [i]A Crown of Swords[/i], whilst Mesaana suffers the same fate in [i]Crossroads of Twilight[/i]. There are insinuations that there has also been abuse at the hands of Myrddraal in the butchered village in [i]The Great Hunt[/i] as well as elsewhere. Wasn't there something about women going crazy after being left in the hands of the Myddraal? Jordan was a bit more circumspect, but his implication is clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avalon Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 In no particular order: Bradbury Martin Tolkien Kay Wolfe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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