MMA 3:UFC 87 Recap

[benderschweiz]

Machida may find that title shot to be "elusive" if he doesn't start engaging more. Dana White must have nightmares at the thought of him with the LHW belt. I bet they'll throw W Silva at him next.

I was disappointed with the Penn/Sherk fight. It was so one-sided, with Sherk only trying for one takedown and getting picked apart on his feet the rest of the match. He must have broken that right hand or something. If he was trying to wear BJ down you'd think he'd try to grapple with him some, unless he has that little confidence in his wrestling and sub defense.

[GSP]

Dong Hyun Kim was booed? WTFs with the ignorant fans at MMA events, or is American xenophobia just that far flung? Personally, I'd never boo a fighter just cause he isn't off my nationality. Actually, short of being a dick of Hughesian proportions I don't think I'd ever boo a fighter, period.

I also found booing Machida pretty ignorant. That guy's phenomenal, and I don't think so because Rogan said so. Sorry Bender, Machida was engaging. I've seen ignorami on the various MMA forums comparing his performances to the last of Kaleb Starnes, but give me a break. He's one hell of a counter puncher. Ortiz was simply saved by the bell under some mad ground and pound at the end of round 1; I'd call that engageing. I'd call the knee he delivered to Ortiz's liver that put him on the ground in Round three and the go for the kill follow up engaging too. He chooses his spots with sniper like precision. He's a counterpuncher and everyone knows it. If Ortiz aint bull rushing and throwing Wanderlei like haymakers I don't think he's got anything to complain about.

I think the best would come out of him if he was matched with a Wanderlei Silva or Houston Alexander. I think he'd pick them apart. I don't think he's seen their like though, and I could be wrong. That kind of fighter could be just the cryptonite for him as it appears to be for Jardine.

[lessthanluke]

I agree with GSP Machida was very engaging. He picks his spots brilliantly and I find him very engaging because you never know when hes gonna strike. That knee to the liver was class and I have no idea how he got out of that triangle.

[Ser Barry]

WAR BJ!!!

WAR WANDY!!!

BLACK OPS MACHIDA!!!!!!




Jason Tan did UK MMA a bit of damage there. Confirmed the, largely correct, view in other parts of the world that UK fighters are getting breaks purely because of the money to be made over here. He was never ready for the UFC. Etim showed that our fighters do have talent but with no structure and poor training partners they need to be training in the US and fighting in the smaller organisations before hitting the big time. Paul Daley would be the best example for me. With the EliteXC/Cage Rage tie-in hopefully our best fighters will filter through to better cards. I am still worried that UFC are signing hopeless 5-0 fighters for the local cards here.

[Ken Stone]

Dang. I was 2 of 4 on my predictions. That means that I'm not good enough to pick the winners, but not bad enough that someone could use my opposite picks as a valid strategy for gambling.

So what does everyone think about Penn calling out GSP? While that would be another great fight I don't think it is one that should happen yet. GSP has yet to defend his title at 170 and there are a ton of contenders in that division. There are also plenty of 155 fighters that deserve a shot at Penn. The 155 and 170 divisions seem very deep to me so it just doesn't make sense to have Penn jumping all around. On an interesting note though if he does defeat GSP maybe we will get to see a Penn v Silva match. You know he is thinking it.

So who are the most deserving fighters out there that deserve title shots in the 170 division? It sounds like Fitch may be next in line, although I'm not sure that fight is officially scheduled yet. While I like the idea of a GSP v Jon Fitch match I don't really like the idea of a Jon Fitch holding the title.

As for the 155 division there seems to be a ton of very young talent there that I am interested in seeing mature some. Nate Diaz is one of those fighters that I really like and hopefully will keep on his winning ways. The only problem there is I don't see Diaz, as a submission guy, being much of a challenge for Penn. If he is able to improve his boxing and get some KO power (not likely with those skinny arms) he could be a force.

[Analu]

[quote name='Ken Stone' post='1372452' date='May 27 2008, 08.46']So what does everyone think about Penn calling out GSP?[/quote]
I loved it and so did everyone I was with. But then, we aren't the most impartial crowd in the world. BJ could knee a little girl in the face and slap an armbar on her doll and we'd find some way to justify it :P

But I think that fight's a very real possibility, maybe for a NYE card if GSP gets by Fitch.


[quote]The 155 and 170 divisions seem very deep to me so it just doesn't make sense to have Penn jumping all around.[/quote]
I don't mind BJ jumping around weights at all. It's what he's done his entire career: moving up and down weights, jumping to different orgs, etc. all in search of new challenges and bigger fights. One of the things I've always loved about him is how crazy and non-conforming he is. To paraphrase Rogan from a while back, "BJ Penn does whatever the fuck he wants". Even calling his own fights, apparently. He generates a lot of dislike in return for his cockiness and post-fight antics, but I heard him in a local interview one time talking about how he's like Jekyll and Hyde, and when he gets in fight mode, even he doesn't even know what he'll do or say next. Not that that excuses the blood-licking nastiness, but it does explain it some.

I hear and read all this "Machida is boring" talk, and am genuinely puzzled by it. Watching him breakdown his opponents is like watching a master craftsman at work. Even that knee that he crumpled Tito with, you can see that he had automatically programmed his brain to sidestep right after the knee, ensuring that no matter if it connected or not, he'd be out of harms way. It's fascinating as hell to watch. Like Caliqua said before, how many times do you see elite fighters shoot thru thin air? I love it.

[GSP]

I do want to see BJ/GSP II, but after they have both truly cleaned out their divisions; neither has yet. BJ's gotta chill. He only wants to fight a time or two a year, so what, is he gonna potentially have two belts in hand and defend them both less than once a year or some shit? If you're gonna hold more than one belt you'd better be willing to fight twice as often.

Still, I want to see the rematch to end all this talk of how Bj 'really kicked GSP's ass' last time around I keep hearing on the forums. I see GSP finishin him this time around (sorry Bj of the board, we've all got our biases).

[Ser Barry]

I think that both GSP and Penn have obvious challengers set up, excluding Fitch which is scheduled, in the winner of Huerta/Florian and Alves if he gets past Hughes. Then it seems to me that UFC should strike while the iron is hot. Who knows when BJ goes back to eating burgers as his pre-fight routine or GSP goes mental again? I see them setting it up as their December headliner.

Should we have a sweepstake as to how many seconds Thompson is going to last? I'll take 46 seconds. I know someone who has been training with him and apparently he has been working on his wrestling hard, which means he is still shite at it. I did see him at a UK MMA event and damn that man is huge btw.

[benderschweiz]

[quote name='GSP' post='1371819' date='May 27 2008, 01.55']Sorry Bender, Machida was engaging. I've seen ignorami on the various MMA forums comparing his performances to the last of Kaleb Starnes, but give me a break. He's one hell of a counter puncher. Ortiz was simply saved by the bell under some mad ground and pound at the end of round 1; I'd call that engageing. I'd call the knee he delivered to Ortiz's liver that put him on the ground in Round three and the go for the kill follow up engaging too. He chooses his spots with sniper like precision. He's a counterpuncher and everyone knows it. If Ortiz aint bull rushing and throwing Wanderlei like haymakers I don't think he's got anything to complain about.[/quote]

I just don't like it when guys are content to win a decision when they could get a stoppage. When I was watching I thought Machida dominated the first round and should have stopped Ortiz in one of the next two. Apparently he's saying he was sick and got tired the last two rounds, which explains why he played it safe.

[lessthanluke]

[quote name='benderschweiz' post='1373489' date='May 28 2008, 17.50']I just don't like it when guys are content to win a decision when they could get a stoppage. When I was watching I thought Machida dominated the first round and should have stopped Ortiz in one of the next two. Apparently he's saying he was sick and got tired the last two rounds, which explains why he played it safe.[/quote]

What if he went for the stoppage and then got in trouble and lost?

[Ser Barry]

Heath Herring has replaced Coleman as Lesnar's opponent in August. Interesting. We will get to learn a lot about Lesnar. I think Herring has the talent to be a top 5 HW easily and if he trains his arse off I think he beats Lesnar convincingly. If he is a lazy git then I can see Lesnar grounding him down and putting him away. Tough matchmaking for Lesnar. Is DW trying to prove that it no-one is able to walk straight in to UFC and dominate with this matchmaking? Will Lesnar start getting easier fights after this? If they really want to build him up then they should have a look at how Kimbo is being fed tune up fights.

[Analu]

[quote name='GSP' post='1372755' date='May 27 2008, 21.03']I do want to see BJ/GSP II, but after they have both truly cleaned out their divisions; neither has yet. BJ's gotta chill.[/quote]
I don't understand why people are so obsessed with champions "cleaning out their division" before moving up and down and taking on more intriguing fights. Isn't it about putting on the best fights against the best fighters, regardless of weight? Isn't one of the main reasons for constantly debating and discussing the P4P list to actually [i][b]see[/b][/i] these superfights happen?

It'd be nice to pull a Hughes and rule your division for 4-5 years, but I just don't think Penn is built that way. Like Couture, I think he's at the point where he's only interested in megafights. Personally, I don't see why he gets criticized so much for that. [b]Every [/b]fighter that he's gone up in weight to fight has been an elite fighter, never a can: Hughes, GSP, Machida, Gracie. He should be applauded for challenging himself against physically bigger fighters instead of resting on his laurels like so many others, IMO.

Right now, the majority probably feel that the edge goes to GSP and they'd probably be right but I'd still pick Penn. GSP's a physical specimen and the superior athlete but I think he loses the rematch. BJ's freely admitted that he's obsessed with GSP and avenging their first loss, so I can't believe that he'd come in in anything other than great shape. BJ's the most naturally intuitive fighter in the world. He's a pure fighter in every sense of the word.

OK, I'm done fawning over my namesake. At least for today.


[quote name='Barry Emelianenko' post='1373504' date='May 28 2008, 07.59']If they really want to build him up then they should have a look at how Kimbo is being fed tune up fights.[/quote]
I think they're purposefully going the opposite direction to validate DW and Chuck's harsh words about Kimbo and his kiddie-glove handling. And I think the risk is worth the reward. If Herring wins, they still have an opportunity to give Brock an easier opponent, as it's usually 3 strikes and out in the UFC. And when you're as huge a draw as Lesnar is, even more leeway will be given. If he actually manages to beat Herring, he gains immediate legitimacy as an MMA fighter and DW can justify giving him an immediate title shot.

But Herring is no joke and I think he smokes Lesnar.

[Ser Barry]

I agree with every word BJ. May I lick your blood?

[Ken Stone]

[quote name='BJ Penn' post='1373861' date='May 28 2008, 13.25']I don't understand why people are so obsessed with champions "cleaning out their division" before moving up and down and taking on more intriguing fights. Isn't it about putting on the best fights against the best fighters, regardless of weight? Isn't one of the main reasons for constantly debating and discussing the P4P list to actually [i][b]see[/b][/i] these superfights happen?

It'd be nice to pull a Hughes and rule your division for 4-5 years, but I just don't think Penn is built that way. Like Couture, I think he's at the point where he's only interested in megafights. Personally, I don't see why he gets criticized so much for that. [b]Every [/b]fighter that he's gone up in weight to fight has been an elite fighter, never a can: Hughes, GSP, Machida, Gracie. He should be applauded for challenging himself against physically bigger fighters instead of resting on his laurels like so many others, IMO.[/quote]

Here's the problem. BJ wants to be known as the best ever. If he defeats GSP he's going to start asking for a matchup with teh Spider, then Rampage, then Fedor I guess. Where does it end? :P

[Liffguard]

[quote]Right now, the majority probably feel that the edge goes to GSP and they'd probably be right but I'd still pick Penn. GSP's a physical specimen and the superior athlete but I think he loses the rematch. BJ's freely admitted that he's obsessed with GSP and avenging their first loss, so I can't believe that he'd come in in anything other than great shape. BJ's the most naturally intuitive fighter in the world. He's a pure fighter in every sense of the word.[/quote]

I'd give it to GSP. For all of BJ's amazing skills, I think GSP is the future of the sport. He is the literal master of all trades. An excellent grappler (though admittedly not as good as BJ) with submission and GnP skills. A phenomenal wrestler despite a late start. Remember his last fight with Hughes? Hughes, widely considered one of the best wrestlers in the sport, was getting dominated at wrestling by GSP. He's also an excellent striker with just the right blend of aggression and counter-fighting. More important than all of those however, is the way he [i]integrates[/i] them. He's similar to Randy Couture in that he doesn't just strike, then wrestle, then grapple. He knows how to establish a gameplan and then use all three ranges together to implement that gameplan. So yeah, if it happens it'll be an awesome fight, but my money's on Rush.

[Analu]

[quote name='Barry Emelianenko' post='1374090' date='May 28 2008, 13.06']I agree with every word BJ. May I lick your blood?[/quote]
Heh, yeah BJ's gotta nip that in the bud and cut that shit out right away. I mean, licking his own blood and spitting it out ala Bruce Lee? Yeah that works. But what he did with Sherk was neither classy nor hygienic.


[quote name='Ken Stone' post='1374096' date='May 28 2008, 13.09']Here's the problem. BJ wants to be known as the best ever. If he defeats GSP he's going to start asking for a matchup with teh Spider, then Rampage, then Fedor I guess. Where does it end? :P[/quote]
Thing is, I don't see that as a problem. If he keeps moving up and keeps beating the best fighters at that weight division, why not keep asking for the next champ? Love him or hate him, people would talk about it and tune in.


[quote name='Caligua' post='1374142' date='May 28 2008, 13.39']I'd give it to GSP. For all of BJ's amazing skills, I think GSP is the future of the sport. He is the literal master of all trades. An excellent grappler (though admittedly not as good as BJ) with submission and GnP skills. A phenomenal wrestler despite a late start. Remember his last fight with Hughes? Hughes, widely considered one of the best wrestlers in the sport, was getting dominated at wrestling by GSP. He's also an excellent striker with just the right blend of aggression and counter-fighting. More important than all of those however, is the way he [i]integrates[/i] them. He's similar to Randy Couture in that he doesn't just strike, then wrestle, then grapple. He knows how to establish a gameplan and then use all three ranges together to implement that gameplan. So yeah, if it happens it'll be an awesome fight, but my money's on Rush.[/quote]
You make some good arguments and I agree. With your arguments, that is, not that he would beat BJ. I'd have to be a total hypocrite to choose anyone against my favorite fighter and board handle. But as three-dimensional a fighter as GSP is, I think BJ is the same. And he integrates his skills just as well, IMO. How he's adjusted his BJJ into MMA is like no other fighter I've ever seen. And I really believe that BJ's boxing skills are extremely underrated. Watch how he aims his punches and hits the exact same spot every time and how he keeps his eyes open at all times, when most fighters will shut them during frenetic striking exchanges. And how he rolls his face and body with punches to avoid punishment. Aside from his round, bowling ball head, I think that's why he never gets cut.

I could go on and on about why BJ would beat Rush, and you could probably do the same for GSP. I don't think either of us would be wrong; we'd just have to see how it played out in the fight. I think everyone would agree it would be a rematch for the ages.

[GSP]

Yeah, where does it end? I'm sorry, but BJ and the Spider? He'll be stopped again for sure and if there's a rib injury this time it would be because he caught one of Silva's knees. I want to see GSP/Silva out of shere curiosity, but as much of a GSP nuthugger as I am I wouldn't bet any money on him in that fight that I couldn't afford to loose. Silva's just as skilled, and much bigger. All the more so if it was Silva/Penn. There is a reason it's a pound for pound rating. BJ's got the skill sets to take it to anyone in the world, except those few guys who are just as skilled but bigger. He may be obsessed with GSP, but GSP's got a bit of a habit of just destroying people in the rematch, so I'd definitaly like to see it.

I'm all for Bj doing his crazy assed thing, as long as he vacates the lw belt while he does it. That's my beef. I hate how belts are on hold for so long for TUF drama sake. With injuries in the mix it seems to me that most of the champs don't defend enough as it is. I can't imagine how long it would be between defences if we've got guys holding belts in more than one weight class at the same time. I just don't understand why the Prodigy doesn't want to break a title defence record and just live large on the top of the Mountain for as long as he can. If he really thinks it'll remain unchallenging, well, surely even his head aint that big. I'm sure there will be plenty of up n coming hungry young fighters looking to make waves by stopping him.

Hadn't heard the Machida was ill thing. Man, if he made Ortiz look like that much of a putz dead tired sick, the sky's the freakin limit for that guy.

[Ken Stone]

Last night was an interesting TUF I thought. First Jesse Taylor beat the crap out of Dante, who didn't seem to do much defense or offense wise. I found it strange that after the fight Dana said "Jesse didn't look like a world beater either". That fight looked very one-sided to me. Towards the end of the second round Taylor had slowed down but before that he was G&P pretty well. Dante's face was pretty battered. The good news was that it appeared that the beating actually cured Dante of some of his eye twitching.

The second fight disappointed me. I really like Mac Brown and think that he will grow into a good fighter. I was surprised he got caught in that triangle because you could see it coming from a mile away. It seems to me like Forrest is doing the better job corning and I wonder if that is helping his fighters be so successful. You can always hear the guys in Forrest's corner yelling "Watch your right foot! He's setting up a guillotine!" Rampage's corner is very quiet in comparison. I have to believe that if Brown would have been cornered by Forrest they would have warned him about the triangle and he could have escaped. I guess I am surprised by the result because Amir doesn't come across as that great of a fighter.

Lastly is anyone planning on watching the EliteXC card on CBS? I'm only slightly familiar with a few of the fighters so it is hard to make any predictions about what will happen. Ignorance never stopped me before though, so here we go -

* [b]Kevin "Kimbo Slice" Ferguson[/b] vs. James Thompson - This match just seems tailor-made for Kimbo to get a quick knock out. Regardless I'm excited to see it.

* Champ [b]Robbie Lawler[/b] vs. Scott Smith (for EliteXC middleweight title) - I'm not overly familiar with Scott Smith but Robbie Lawler is fun to watch.

* [b]Gina Carano[/b] vs. Kaitlin Young - I suppose like every male with an active sex drive I have a huge crush on Gina Carano. Also I've never heard of Kaitlin Young but she is supposed to be good. My only prediction for this fight is lots of hair pulling and fingernail scratches.

* Phil Baroni vs. [b]Joey Villasenor[/b] - I'm not familiar with Villasenor but Baroni seems to be the guy they bring in now when they want to get someone a victory against a known name.

[benderschweiz]

[url="http://www.fightmetric.com/fights/GSP-Penn.html"]http://www.fightmetric.com/fights/GSP-Penn.html[/url]

This site is pretty cool for looking at a lot of controversial decisions from the last few years. Not sure about the statistics behind it...but fun none the less. Apparently they think Penn vs. GSP should have been a draw.

Lesnar still may be green, but I think he stands a good chance against Herring. Herring can't stay on his feet against good wrestlers, even Kongo was taking him to the ground at will during UFC 82.

[b]James Thompson[/b] vs. Kimbo - Thompson will dominate the prefight staredown and promptly be KO'd by Kimbo, but the staredown will be more entertaining than the fight itself. That's a win for JT in my book.

[Analu]

[quote name='Ken Stone' post='1374967' date='May 29 2008, 05.10']It seems to me like Forrest is doing the better job corning and I wonder if that is helping his fighters be so successful. You can always hear the guys in Forrest's corner yelling "Watch your right foot! He's setting up a guillotine!" Rampage's corner is very quiet in comparison.[/quote]
Well, both Amir and Brown were from Forrests team and he probably knew their styles way better than Rampage, so you can't really use that fight to accurately gauge Rampage's coaching abilities. I do love how animated Forrest gets during the fights, though. I forget which fight but when he lost his voice repeatedly screaming "Show me the ANIMAL, damnit!!!" was hilarious.


[quote]Lastly is anyone planning on watching the EliteXC card on CBS? I'm only slightly familiar with a few of the fighters so it is hard to make any predictions about what will happen. Ignorance never stopped me before though, so here we go -[/quote]
I'll be watching it (or taping it and watching it later), but the fights are all pretty one-sided, IMO. Smith is a good fighter and that KO of Pete Sell is probably one of the best UFC KOs ever, but he's really not in Lawler's league. Putting Kimbo up against a big, menacing-looking guy with a weak chin seems par for the course with how they've handled him so far. If Villasenor can get past the first round, Baroni will gas and gas hard.

While I don't completely agree with [url="http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news?slug=dw-slice052808&prov=yhoo&type=lgns"]this article [/url]slamming the card, I do agree with this portion of it:
[i]Anderson Silva, B.J. Penn and Georges St. Pierre display what MMA is all about. Not menacing scowls and WWE-like personas, but unreal athletic ability, disciplined training and tremendous intelligence from fighters as multi-skilled as they are fearless.

If one of them were on CBS, it would force America to realize what MMA really is. Kimbo, who taps into our primal instincts, plays to what many think the sport is. Let Kimbo cash every check he can – good for him – but he plays to MMA’s difficult-to-shake reputation as “human cockfighting,” as Sen. John McCain once branded it.[/i]

But whatever. To be honest, I don't really care if MMA gets more fans or not. I follow it and all my friends do, which is good enough for me. I'm also looking forward to the WEC card the following day on Versus. I'm going with Faber, Torres and Razor Rob. Lotsa MMA ahead, almost too much to handle.


And yeah, fightmetric.com rocks. I love that site. I think it showed that in the first round of the Machida vs Tito fight, Tito threw 27 punches and missed EVERY one. Haha