Mysterious Character: "the Liddle"

[jon rr stark]

I thought the Liddle meeting Bran was just a way of giving us info on the north and the clans. I dont see a conflict between helping Stannis and knowing Bran is alive.

[jurble]

Speaking of the Clans, when I think of clans IRL, I think of like 200 people all with the same last name. Are the Northern Clans the same? Like the Liddles, Flints and Norreys, are we talking only some last-named dudes + some peasants, or are we talking like 500 dudes all with the same last name?

[tze]

Big Liddle is in the Watch---he's one of the men Jon brings as a guard when he's supervising the wildlings entering the gate. Asha mentions that Middle Liddle is with Stannis's forces. Maybe Bran met Little Liddle?

If that is the case, when Stannis comes a calling, and the Wulls, Flints, and Liddles etc join him they are doing so under false pretenses. Because they know there are living male Starks.

I guess they neglected to mention that to Stannis. hmmmmmmmm.....

Also, the little Mormount sister tells Stannis to shove it, and the big Mormount sister joins his host? Hmmmmm....

I think Stannis is getting the Northern double cross, and not from the Karstarks

I think that's a very real possibility. Lyanna Mormont seems to be pulling a Wylla Manderly, and then Alysanne Mormont just randomly shows up---very suspicious. The hill clans seem far more concerned with taking Winterfell than they do with making Stannis their king. Stannis's habit of burning people alive probably didn't help him out there. And the storm that has crippled Stannis's forces would be seen by the clans as being sent by the old gods, so they'd say that the old gods don't want Stannis in charge of Winterfell.

Plus, if the Liddles know about Bran (since what other Stark is crippled?), and they haven't told Stannis, that really shines a negative light on their intentions. I can't think of why they'd leave that little detail out, unless they're planning on using him to take Winterfell and then killing him, clearing the way for a Stark to become King in the North.

[jxd]

Then clans were they to rescue "Ned's little girl" and die in battle instead of starvation. I don't see much duplicity from them.

[littlespider]

a very bad idea, as I enjoy your posts and topic choices as much as GRRM enjoys fanboys tears.

Heehee. Thanks; I enjoy yours as well.

And your dragonglass is awesome.

[dragginstoned]

Then clans were they to rescue "Ned's little girl" and die in battle instead of starvation. I don't see much duplicity from them.

re-read the thread.

If 1 little liddle knows, all the little liddles know.

Yeah... they are out to save "Ned's little girl"...

Thats what they are telling Stannis's people.

But if they know there is a living heir...

And they havent told Stannis this very important little snippet,

they are committing treason.

And the funny thing about treason, is there is only one punishment.

So... In for a groat

In for a Dragon

[MtnLion]

Well, that does make for an interesting point. If my king is Bran, and Stannis is out to help Bran or his kin, and I say that I will help as well, am I ultimately guilty of treason only if Bran does not swear to Stannis? Hmmm

[jxd]

re-read the thread.

If 1 little liddle knows, all the little liddles know.

Yeah... they are out to save "Ned's little girl"...

Thats what they are telling Stannis's people.

But if they know there is a living heir...

And they havent told Stannis this very important little snippet,

they are committing treason.

And the funny thing about treason, is there is only one punishment.

So... In for a groat

In for a Dragon

If they do not consider Stannis their king, how could it be treason?

[littlespider]

I like to imagine, in my happy liddle world, that the Liddles, Wulls, Flints, et al., are duping Stannis because they want justice for the Stark family and Stannis is the best vehicle for that right now.

So the Liddles know that Bran is alive and the rightful heir of Winterfell/the North, but they're also trying to get vengeance for Ned's girl.

I dunno. I have not thought about this theory very much.

[Angalin]

The clans may simply want a Stark back in Winterfell. Like Manderly, if Stannis will work to achieve that, they might well accept him as king to have the Warden of the North be a Stark again.

[The Lost Lord]

But if they know there is a living heir...

And they havent told Stannis this very important little snippet,

they are committing treason.

Well, that does make for an interesting point. If my king is Bran, and Stannis is out to help Bran or his kin, and I say that I will help as well, am I ultimately guilty of treason only if Bran does not swear to Stannis? Hmmm

I think these are a bit of a stretch. Wherever Bran and Rickon are now, they are irrelevant for the time being. The conflict is Boltons vs. Stannis. Stannis supports the restoration of Stark rule over the North in some form, the Boltons do not. Personally I don't see why Stannis would object to the restoration of Bran or a Manderly-backed Rickon to Winterfell, that's the exact kind of thing he'd support. But as long as no one knows where Bran is, it's irrelevant, even if there are reports that he's alive somewhere.

Is your case that, based on the little Mormont girl's letter, the Northmen truly intend to remain independent, pledge to no king, and anoint Bran or Rickon as King in the North? I don't really agree with this. The Mormont girl objected to Stannis because he sent her letters and demanded her fealty without arguing or showing why he should have it. As Jon said, the way Stannis had to win support was to go there and fight, making his cause the defeat of the ironborn and supporting the Starks / "Ned's girl," so that's why the Mormonts and the clans did eventually join up. I don't see why they'd turn on Stannis if he leads them to victory.

[dragginstoned]

If they do not consider Stannis their king, how could it be treason?

With Stannis, as we have seen from the end of his last hand, decides what is treason.

Not Considering Stannis your king is treason.

Withholding critical information from your king in wartime is treason.

Knowing about someone else commiting treason and not condemning it instantly in public is treason.

[dragginstoned]

I like to imagine, in my happy liddle world, that the Liddles, Wulls, Flints, et al., are duping Stannis because they want justice for the Stark family and Stannis is the best vehicle for that right now.

So the Liddles know that Bran is alive and the rightful heir of Winterfell/the North, but they're also trying to get vengeance for Ned's girl.

I dunno. I have not thought about this theory very much.

I think you are 100% correct on this, except that they could care less about Stannis once they have Arya and Winterfell. Especially when they know they can have Bran.

The only open questions (regarding the who is on what side in the showdown at winterfell) are

1) weather or not Manderly and co. are in it with Liddle and co.

2) weather or not Mormount and co are in it with Liddle and co.

3) weather or not Mormount and co are in it with Manderly and co.

4) What did Howland Reed know (about this, not the other stuff) and when did he know it?

5) Whose side is Lady Dunstin REALLY on?

6) Where are Ned's bones anyway?

I've been gazing into the dragonglass candle for days and cant get a read on this one

[dragginstoned]

Could this be the cloaked guy that talks to Theon in the "Ghost in Winterfell" chapters?

No. if he is "the Liddle" or an important Liddle, which he was because of the broach (the class are too poor for them all to have broaches), he'd be riding with all the other liddle liddles to the liddle castle in the snow to get back Neds liddle girl

[tze]

I think these are a bit of a stretch. Wherever Bran and Rickon are now, they are irrelevant for the time being. The conflict is Boltons vs. Stannis. Stannis supports the restoration of Stark rule over the North in some form, the Boltons do not. Personally I don't see why Stannis would object to the restoration of Bran or a Manderly-backed Rickon to Winterfell, that's the exact kind of thing he'd support. But as long as no one knows where Bran is, it's irrelevant, even if there are reports that he's alive somewhere.

To be fair, I don't think Stannis's attempt to legitimize Jon is well-known. So we know he'd prefer a Stark in Winterfell, but the other Northmen have no way of knowing that. Stannis says he's going to give Winterfell to a Karstark--you know, the House that abandoned the Young Wolf after murdering several prisoners.

And really, maybe the hill clans think they DO know where Bran is? If the Liddle reported back, wouldn't they know that Bran was heading North? And not long after this, Bran's bastard brother is named Lord Commander. They're not going to assume that Bran and his escort were heading beyond the Wall to find a semi-mythical sorcerer in the Haunted Forest. They're going to assume that Bran went for help at the Wall, like Alys Karstark did. They're going to assume that Bran's bastard brother is hiding him.

Is your case that, based on the little Mormont girl's letter, the Northmen truly intend to remain independent, pledge to no king, and anoint Bran or Rickon as King in the North? I don't really agree with this. The Mormont girl objected to Stannis because he sent her letters and demanded her fealty without arguing or showing why he should have it. As Jon said, the way Stannis had to win support was to go there and fight, making his cause the defeat of the ironborn and supporting the Starks / "Ned's girl," so that's why the Mormonts and the clans did eventually join up. I don't see why they'd turn on Stannis if he leads them to victory.

Where do you get that?

Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK.

That seems pretty clear. Lyanna Mormont says that only a Stark is King, and the North remains free from the Iron Throne. Stannis wants them to declare him King---and if he's their king the Starks aren't. From their POV, Stannis isn't trying to restore the Starks---he's trying to usurp them. I mean, Winterfell should be going to Arya, but Stannis announces he'll give it to the Karstarks. Perhaps he's thinking of marrying Arya to one of Arnolf Karstark's sons/grandsons, but really, is that so different from the Bolton usurpation, from the Northmen's POV?

[dragginstoned]

Perhaps he's thinking of marrying Arya to one of Arnolf Karstark's sons/grandsons, but really, is that so different from the Bolton usurpation, from the Northmen's POV?

No. It's worse.

The North, unlike the rest of westeros, has a homogenous ethnic and religious identity that is different from the south and always has been.

Roose Bolton, for all his faults, is still of the first men and a worshiper of the old gods.

Stannis if from the south and worships a strange god nobody has ever heard of and BURNS northern shrines. Living Shrines that their cultural identity is built around.

They dont want Stannis. And they will settle with Bolton when he's gone.

[littlespider]

No. if he is "the Liddle" or an important Liddle, which he was because of the broach (the class are too poor for them all to have broaches), he'd be riding with all the other liddle liddles to the liddle castle in the snow to get back Neds liddle girl

Could it be a Liddle, though (rather than 'the') or one of the Northmen?

I have to do my reread of DwD now and muddle out the Mormonts' role in this.

[dragginstoned]

Could it be a Liddle, though (rather than 'the') or one of the Northmen?

I have to do my reread of DwD now and muddle out the Mormonts' role in this.

Actually, I'm thinking to do something of the same, with focus on all the northern houses, and going back a couple of books.

The camera focus has been on Bolton, Umber, Karstark for a long time. I feel like I need to look at whats up with the other other houses in the background.

Mayhaps a look at the ACoK chapters with Bran as prince of winterfell might be helpful

[The Lost Lord]

Where do you get that? ... Lyanna Mormont says that only a Stark is King, and the North remains free from the Iron Throne.

That's at the beginning of this book, and she's a little girl saying screw you to a doomed pretender. Then Stannis liberates Deepwood Motte from the ironborn and becomes a real player. The mountain clans, Alysane Mormont, other displaced Northmen, and Mors Umber back his play since he's shown his ability and strategic sense, he did a good thing for the North by beating the ironmen, and since he's the main alternative to the Boltons. This is just practical politics. If Stannis continues to treat them well and leads them to victory there's no reason for them to turn around and say "Screw you, we're staying independent," and start another war for no reason right after they've won one. No one's talking seriously about naming "Arya" Queen of the North as far as I can recall, the thought is absurd.

To be fair, I don't think Stannis's attempt to legitimize Jon is well-known. So we know he'd prefer a Stark in Winterfell, but the other Northmen have no way of knowing that. Stannis says he's going to give Winterfell to a Karstark--you know, the House that abandoned the Young Wolf after murdering several prisoners... Perhaps he's thinking of marrying Arya to one of Arnolf Karstark's sons/grandsons, but really, is that so different from the Bolton usurpation, from the Northmen's POV?

What's the alternative? Someone's gotta rule Winterfell, and Arya's a young girl whose whole household is dead. Sure, they might argue over the spoils later on, but beating the Boltons is priority one. Only Manderly knows of Rickon. Only Clan Liddle may know of Bran. Karstark / Arya marriage may not be a thrilling solution but it's better than the status quo and there's no obvious better solution than that.

And really, maybe the hill clans think they DO know where Bran is? If the Liddle reported back, wouldn't they know that Bran was heading North? And not long after this, Bran's bastard brother is named Lord Commander. They're not going to assume that Bran and his escort were heading beyond the Wall to find a semi-mythical sorcerer in the Haunted Forest. They're going to assume that Bran went for help at the Wall, like Alys Karstark did. They're going to assume that Bran's bastard brother is hiding him.

If they do have this dubious assumption, what exactly are they doing about it, and what can ever come of it?

No. It's worse. The North, unlike the rest of westeros, has a homogenous ethnic and religious identity that is different from the south and always has been. Roose Bolton, for all his faults, is still of the first men and a worshiper of the old gods. Stannis if from the south and worships a strange god nobody has ever heard of and BURNS northern shrines. Living Shrines that their cultural identity is built around. They dont want Stannis. And they will settle with Bolton when he's gone.

Are we forgetting how the Northmen were pledged to the Iron Throne for 300 years? Clearly they don't mind allying with southerners of different religions if they have to. Robert was a friend of Ned, the North was pledged to Robert, Stannis is Robert's brother. This isn't so absurd a possibility. Sure, if Stannis makes intolerable demands for them to swear to R'hllor or whatever they won't go along with it. But a fanatical commitment to true independence means that after they and Stannis beat the Boltons, they're going to betray Stannis and start another war with him. Doesn't seem likely to me.

[dragginstoned]

Are we forgetting how the Northmen were pledged to the Iron Throne for 300 years? Clearly they don't mind allying with southerners of different religions if they have to. Robert was a friend of Ned, the North was pledged to Robert, Stannis is Robert's brother. This isn't so absurd a possibility. Sure, if Stannis makes intolerable demands for them to swear to R'hllor or whatever they won't go along with it. But a fanatical commitment to true independence means that after they and Stannis beat the Boltons, they're going to betray Stannis and start another war with him. Doesn't seem likely to me.

Yeah. Pledged to the Iron Throne for 3 hundred years. And left alone for the whole time. They play no major part in "mainstream" ie southron ie Andal culture politics or history. And the south likes it that way because they are a bunch of crazy barbarians from a big empty cold place on the other side of a dangerous swamp.

Yeah, Ned was cool with Robert. And the North loved "the Ned". But what happens when Ned and Robert are dead? The North pushes Robb to declare. Reflexively. No deliberation. No forthought. And its not just a matter of the GreatJon being a nut. Everybody jumps right in.

Consider the Greatjon's speach:

“MY LORDS!” he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. “Here is what I say to these

two kings!” He spat. “ Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why

should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne?

What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even

their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I’ve had a bellyful of them.” He

reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. “Why

shouldn’t we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are

all dead!” He pointed at Robb with the blade. “There sits the only king I mean to bow my

knee to, m’lords,” he thundered. “The King in the North!”

He points 2 reasons other than his bellyful:

A deep cultural divide and no Dragons.

that really says it all