mad men

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

[quote name='Relic' post='1559963' date='Oct 17 2008, 20.39']The episode before last has Betty saying something like "Ive been dreaming of a suitcase." Presumably the same suitcase, Don's lost luggae, which ends up on her doorstep at the end of the last episode. Any significance to that?[/quote]

And Freddie Rumsen's last pitch was going to be for a piece of luggage, a Samsonite Silhouette. Paraphrasing, the spiel went, "I just got a Samsonsite Silhouette, and I hate it. ... The reason I hate it is because it's empty."

[Rhom]

Spoilers henceforth for "The Mountain King." (Man... that feels good to say that after having been able to watch it when I was supposed to!) ;)

Another good look into Don's history this week. Ann really adds an interesting depth to his character I think. I do wonder what will happen there, how/why will he leave California for New York? Pete made a great point to Peggy when he said "He's done it before." Right now, Don has no reason to head back (other than the 1/2 million he's due from this merger anyways :stunned: ). So what is going to draw him back? I really thought John Hamm did a great job with his acting this week. The difference between the unsure/eager Dick Whitman that Ann meets and the brooding/confident Don Draper that we see every week is an interesting contrast.

Betty continues to rack up votes for "Worst TV Mom Ever." Her exchange with Sally was nearly cringe worthy. Sally: "It hurts!" Betty: "Good!" And then locking her in a closet?!!? Later she gives Sally riding boots and acts like everything is okay. She also showed a vindictive/malicious streak that we hadn't seen. Prior to this episode, all the negetive Bettyisms were spur of the moment IIRC. Much like randomly shooting the neighbor's birds last season. This week we saw her call Mary Beth (who she had set up on a "date" a few weeks ago) and when she shared that she had slept with the "stable boy" Betty turns into full blown "Holier Than Thou" mode. I think Betty wants other people to be as miserable as she is and is now going about making that happen for other people in her life.

Joan now has what she wants, but is beginning to realize that her husband to be thinks very little of her. The scene where she was raped in Don's office was very powerful and very disturbing. Peggy later tells her what a great guy Greg is and how lucky Joan should feel as Peggy stands in the door to her very own office. Joan was very gracious and complimentary of Peggy there and I saw that as a moment of realization from Joan that Peggy had actually achieved everything she wanted in a positive way, while Joan was reaping the benefits of her time at Sterling Cooper as well.

Speaking of Peggy... I thought this was a strong episode for her despite limited air time. Brings back the old addage "If you want something: [i]ASK![/i]" Her last scene with Pete was pretty good. She's much more comfortable with herself and even making self-deprecating jokes. "I'm sleeping with Don. I think its working out pretty well for me."

Ahhh Pete... I thought this episode showed some strong acting from Vincent Kartheiser. Anyone who's ever felt like they had meddling in-laws can appreciate the position Pete was in. He's clearly not ready to adopt, and while we can look at that as a very short-sighted position (even if it is in line with 1960's thinking) I sympathize with Pete for being pushed in a direction he isn't ready to go yet.

Lastly, I will just say that I am surprised that the merger went through as quickly as it did. I thought we'd see a couple of episodes of hand wringing before it was approved. I'm anxious to see where this is headed.

Another strong episode IMO. :thumbsup:

[Rockroi]

[b]Billy Clyde:[/b]

I am just using your comments a s a springboard to my own thoughts; DO NOT take it that I am attacking your comments.

[quote]Another good look into Don's history this week. Ann really adds an interesting depth to his character I think. I do wonder what will happen there, how/why will he leave California for New York? Pete made a great point to Peggy when he said "He's done it before." Right now, Don has no reason to head back (other than the 1/2 million he's due from this merger anyways ). So what is going to draw him back?[/quote]

I loved Ann. I think the show is doing the right thing by NOT showing us the nuts and bolts of how their relationship went from “You stole my husband’s identity” to “you are such a great guy.” I think its wonderful to see Don interact with a female character that he does not 1) sleep with, 2) treat like dirt, or 3) hate (and its interesting that Betty could be all 3). This was a respectful, adult relationship. And it worked.

(and did anyone else notice that Don was fixing a chair in the last scene with Ann?)

[quote]Betty continues to rack up votes for "Worst TV Mom Ever." Her exchange with Sally was nearly cringe worthy. Sally: "It hurts!" Betty: "Good!" And then locking her in a closet?!!?[/quote]

I disagree here, but want to add that I was bored with Betty this week, especially the “stable boy” story-line. However, the striking of her daughter, the “that hurts/good lines, the closet, etc were all, by-in-large, acceptable parenting techniques in 1962. she acted as an appropriate 1962 mother who caught her daughter with a cigarette. And who hangs out with a creepy boy.

[quote]Joan now has what she wants, but is beginning to realize that her husband to be thinks very little of her. The scene where she was raped in Don's office was very powerful and very disturbing. Peggy later tells her what a great guy Greg is and how lucky Joan should feel as Peggy stands in the door to her very own office.[/quote]

Joan owns. She is in many ways the anchor of the series in that she constantly reminds the viewer that its 1962, that women are trapped, that they are demeaned, and that she was raped just like women are raped in 2008 and she SITS THERE AT HER DESK AFTERWARDS and tells us how great her fiancée is. Powerful. I love the actress (Firefly fan… shut up!), and I think that she plays the part perfectly- she is serene, upstanding, solid, dependable, and miserable. And as a good 1962 woman she hides the miserable and projects all the other qualities. In many ways she reminds me of Helen Merrin’s character in Gosford Park; she is a dignified, strong woman who is hiding every sin ever done to her. And proud of that. At the same time, her life plan was to find a husband, and she thought she had that with Roger. But Roger wanted Joan 2.0, and he got that. Joan is left with nothing. And so, she walks into a doctor's life...

But Don? Okay, I was left unfulfilled. That corny, cliché scene with him walking into the water rang hollow. His life is up in the air and I find his meandering to be pointless. Is he finding himself or are we just on a tour? And California? I mean, what is this going to be like? Is he going to be a drag racer? This all seems pointless and the set up APPEARS to be an unfulfilling season finale.

[Blaine]

This episode was a bit of a mixed bag for me. Tons happened, in terms of plot - which should be expected this close to the end of the season. But I also felt some of the subtlety I expect was missing. Visual cues and metaphors were all over the place - Jesus in a popsicle, roses left on a desk after a rape, tarot cards and finally Don's baptism - it really seemed like they were trying too hard to be profound at times. They could have cut about half of these, IMO.

Even though they were completely removed from the rest of the cast, I thought Don's scenes were excellent. Hamm's young and nervous Don vs the older soul-weary Don were pretty fantastic ends of the character spectrum. And I really enjoyed the addition of Anna as a way to fill in a lot of the gaps between Dick Whitman and Don Draper. In particular, the flashback where he tells her about Betty was moving and sad... and showed Don happier than we've ever imagined he could be. A lot of the theory through season one was that Don married Betty simply to complete the image. Here, we can see that truly wasn't the case.

What worked for me, is that now we finally can see the crossroads that Don's at. Not just should he split and be someone else... but "look at the huge mess I made of this perfect life." I think this episode went a long way to establishing that Don is trying to deal with his past instead of just glossing over it with another lie.

I also thought Betty having to own up to her daughter was excellent. As was Peggy winning the Popsicle account (complete with Christ symbology) and getting Freddie's old digs.

Joan's story was probably the most affecting, though. Yet another well illustrated point about shitty the world could be for women in 1962. She tries to make him happy and instead creates insecurity in her fiance. The following rape isn't even that much of a surprise... but it truly sinks in when you see Joan have to praise this guy to Peggy the next day. As Peggy moves into an actual office and leaves her behind.

The merger isn't much of a surprise, but like Mrs. Cooper, I'd like to know what Don thought of the whole thing. Hopefully we'll find out soon.

Assuming Don's baptism in the ocean is finally over with. Or maybe the next year will be all about Dick Whitman's Hot Rods.

[Tears of Lys]

[quote name='Billy Clyde' post='1561317' date='Oct 20 2008, 07.38']Lastly, I will just say that I am surprised that the merger went through as quickly as it did. I thought we'd see a couple of episodes of hand wringing before it was approved. I'm anxious to see where this is headed.

Another strong episode IMO. :thumbsup:[/quote]

AFAIK, the merger hasn't officially gone through yet. Didn't they say they were making a counter-offer? The wheels could still come off this wagon.


[quote name='Rockroi' post='1561431' date='Oct 20 2008, 10.28']I disagree here, but want to add that I was bored with Betty this week, especially the “stable boy” story-line. However, the striking of her daughter, the “that hurts/good lines, the closet, etc were all, by-in-large, acceptable parenting techniques in 1962. she acted as an appropriate 1962 mother who caught her daughter with a cigarette. And who hangs out with a creepy boy.




But Don? Okay, I was left unfulfilled. That corny, cliché scene with him walking into the water rang hollow. His life is up in the air and I find his meandering to be pointless. Is he finding himself or are we just on a tour? And California? I mean, what is this going to be like? Is he going to be a drag racer? This all seems pointless and the set up APPEARS to be an unfulfilling season finale.[/quote]

I was reminded by Don's walk into the water of the scene from "A Star is Born" where James Mason is actually committing suicide. So I guess I saw a bit more than just a baptism symbol in it.

As far as Betty goes, I'm seeing more and more why Don feels unsatisfied with his life with her. Not that his philandering is excusable. Man up and face it instead of sneaking around. But I guess that's what people sometimes do.

The drag racing scene confused me a bit too, but I figured we'd see how this ties in in future episodes. it could be a springboard to more inspirational, creative ideas in his work. At least that's how I saw it.


ETA: I was a wee bit surprised by Ms. Cooper. I was expecting someone doddering, and to have a sharp-tongued caustic commenter on Roger's "child" bride was unexpected and funny.

[Nichole]

Have to agree that Joan's rape was the most powerful moment of the show. I wanted her to scream so badly, and have her co-workers come rushing in and save her. I also wanted her to leave the creep, but as with this show, what I want doesn't happen. I keep watching even though I'm often uncomfortable with what happens. How she dealt with it seemed to hinted at her being raped in the past.

I probably like Peggy the most and it was nice to see her ask for something and get it. I also enjoyed the scene where her and Pete were talking. It is such a change from the girl she was last season, it has been nice to see her progression.

I believe Don will stay in California. I'll be curious to see what this does to the show, because it seems something will have to be resolved with Sterling-Cooper. I also felt bad for Cooper, because I don't think he wants the merger to happen and perhaps Don could have helped stop it. But, then Don seems genuinely happy in California. I wonder what will happen to Betty. I would like to see her have to actually have to take on some responsibility in her life.

And, God I hate Pete. But, he is so much fun to watch.

Oh, and I wish we could have seen Kesey (?) in Mississippi.

[Blaine]

[quote name='Nichole' post='1561653' date='Oct 20 2008, 12.15']I probably like Peggy the most and it was nice to see her ask for something and get it. I also enjoyed the scene where her and Pete were talking. It is such a change from the girl she was last season, it has been nice to see her progression.[/quote]
Peggy's scene with Roger was aces. But then again, 99% of Roger's scenes tend to be witty and well played.

Actually, I really liked seeing Peggy morphing into a young, female Don - with her sneaking smokes and drinks and wandering around the office by herself when no one's around. She is truly defining herself with her job. Even when Pete suggests putting up family pictures, she wants to put up her campaigns.

Of course, I might be biased, since printed campaign work is pretty much all that's on my walls.

[Nichole]

I think Roger's scenes are witty and well played as well, but I'm liking him less and less. I just think the whole thing with Joan 2 and trying to push the merger just seems like the acts of a horrible person to me. His callousness with the whole Freddy thing bothered me as well. He is fun to watch, I just hate him.

I had never thought about how Peggy seems to becoming the female version of Don. It would be interesting if she does really take Don's place while he is California. That would be great since Pete has been dying to be the next Don.

[Rockroi]

[quote]What worked for me, is that now we finally can see the crossroads that Don's at. Not just should he split and be someone else... but "look at the huge mess I made of this perfect life." I think this episode went a long way to establishing that Don is trying to deal with his past instead of just glossing over it with another lie.[/quote]
Vs.

[quote]I believe Don will stay in California.[/quote]

Okay, my issue is this: if Don stays in California, isn’t he JUST perpetuating his character flaw (instead of facing conflict he runs away from it/conceals it)? The show would seem to have a huge, huge change if he were to go to California and change the very essence of the show (interesting idea though as California BOOMED during this time… and 1962... Nixon ran for Governor of… California… hmmmmm….). However, I think if Don ran and stayed in Cali, it would cement his legacy as a runner, not a fighter; a man who, when times get tough, fleas. In other words, what will happen next that Don would have to deal with… or would he just leave? Again? It would appear at THAT point that MadMen would be nothing more than various issues that would confront Don and not how Don faced them, but how Don planned his exit strategy. In fact, this would be the manner in which don LEAST dealt with his past- by always putting more and more places and things into the rear-view mirror.

Hence, I would be mortified if Don stayed in California, but (at the same time) strangely intrigued.

[Blaine]

[quote name='Nichole' post='1561771' date='Oct 20 2008, 13.57']I think Roger's scenes are witty and well played as well, but I'm liking him less and less. I just think the whole thing with Joan 2 and trying to push the merger just seems like the acts of a horrible person to me. His callousness with the whole Freddy thing bothered me as well. He is fun to watch, I just hate him.[/quote]
I was commenting a little more on how awesome Slattery is, rather than Roger being really admirable. But I think that's part of the genius of the role. Like Don, Roger is pretty unlikeable all around - but he plays it with such charm that it works. Though this season's story seems to be pushing both characters (Don and Roger) past the point where charm can redeem their actions.

[quote]I believe Don will stay in California.[/quote]
I don't see it happening at all. Aside from the impracticalities of it for storytelling, that doesn't seem to be in character for Don. I think his time in Cali is giving Don the perspective he needs to reconcile his life. By that, he's learning to let his guard down and realizing as Anna said - the only reason he's unhappy is because he believes he's alone.

Not only do I think Don and Betty will be getting back together, I think Betty is going to meet Dick Whitman.

But then again, I've been horribly, horribly wrong about plot predictions on this show too many times to count. Even if I did call Roger's divorce way back in the season.

[Zadok]

Good episode, if only for other characters on the show finally realizing and calling out Betty for the piece of garbage she is. "My God, you're an awful woman" and "he left because you're mean and stupid" really hit the bullseye. It was also completely pathetic watching her unburden herself again to the only people she can relate to, children. Probably because that's her emotional level. Pete is great as always, especially when he's angry.

[Rhom]

[quote name='Zadok' post='1561816' date='Oct 20 2008, 15.24']It was also completely pathetic watching her unburden herself again to the only people she can relate to, children. Probably because that's her emotional level.[/quote]

That's a great point. I always thought Betty acted like a child, but sharing her burdens with creepy Glenn and now her daughter because they share her maturity never really clicked with me I guess.

:idea:

[Rockroi]

[quote]It was also completely pathetic watching her unburden herself again to the only people she can relate to, children. Probably because that's her emotional level. Pete is great as always, especially when he's angry.[/quote]

And unburden herself to the only other people in the society that women are considered equal to...

[Tears of Lys]

[quote name='Rockroi' post='1561778' date='Oct 20 2008, 15.03']/snip

However, I think if Don ran and stayed in Cali, it would cement his legacy as a runner, not a fighter; a man who, [b][i]when times get tough, fleas[/i][/b].[/quote]

This is extremely accurate while, at the same time, being a giggle. IOW, when you're down and out, what do you get next? Fleas. (I think you meant flees.) Sorry. It just tickled my funny bone.

As much as I enjoyed the back-story on Don and Ann, I can't wait for him to get back to NY.


[quote name='Zadok' post='1561816' date='Oct 20 2008, 15.24']Good episode, if only for other characters on the show finally realizing and calling out Betty for the piece of garbage she is. "My God, you're an awful woman" and "he left because you're mean and stupid" really hit the bullseye. It was also completely pathetic watching her unburden herself again to the only people she can relate to, children. Probably because that's her emotional level. Pete is great as always, especially when he's angry.[/quote]


I wouldn't go so far as to call her a piece of garbage, but she's no box of candy either.

I guess this is why Betty's scenes with Odd Glenn are so uncomfortable - she reminds me a lot of the kind of woman who actually WOULD relate in a romantic way to young boys.


And yes, I love to watch Pete too. Any scene he's in is always a treat.

[Blaine]

I actually thought Betty's scene with her daughter was one of her better moments with Sally, as a parent. She catches her smoking and she punishes her. Then Sally tells her why she's acting out. So Betty lets her out of the closet (which isn't uncommon for that era as far as "time out" goes) and then the next day she faces up and tells her a hard truth. Sure, she bought her some riding boots to soften the blow, but the point is that she owned up and actually parented instead of yelling at Don to punish them more.

The scene with the woman she condemned for adultery (after all but putting her in bed with the guy) were less great. But I think it showed how far Betty WON'T go to get back at Don. The worst thing she's done is cheat on him by proxy - by pushing these other two people into a situation she can disapprove of.

[Commodore]

I love the way the Pete character walks up to the edge, just when you want to like him his immature pride kicks in, it's very well done.

Roger is great, he is never ever ashamed of who he is or how he acts.

All in all a good episode, even if at times it can go the Sopranos route of falling in love with its own artiness.

[Rockroi]

[quote]Roger is great, he is never ever ashamed of who he is or how he acts.[/quote]

This is deep, accurate analysis of a great character. There is no question that Roger's appeal stems form his self-confidence and lack of guilt.

[Relic]

i realized something about this show yesterday. Don is the character i care LEAST about. especially flash backs to Don's goofier friendlier self. sort of painful, really.

[Commodore]

Indulging in a mid-life crisis doesn't make for compelling television. But it's made up for by the great storylines for all the other characters.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Matt Weiner gives [url="http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2008/10/sepinwall_on_tv_mad_men_creato.html"]an interview with the New Jersey Star-Ledger[/url]:

[quote]"I love the show and I love the characters and we just started (negotiating)," he said in a phone interview on Tuesday. "I have every intention of being part of this show forever. I love doing it and I love the experience and I love working with everybody I work with. There's no crisis."[/quote]

And although there's no official word on when in the sixties season three will pick up (for the simple reason that Matt Weiner doesn't plan ahead from season to season), here he is again:

[quote]The one hint he would offer, after I noted that another hypothetical 15-month jump would take the show past the death of John F. Kennedy: "I can say one thing in advance: the Kennedy assassination is very well-trod territory, and I just don't see myself adding to that."[/quote]