Question Regarding Erikson

[Kalbear]

[quote]Or the band of unlikely misfits become heroes type of book?[/quote]Yeah, Malazan isn't that type of book at all. No sirree, not with those irregular joes being the cornerstone of the story and being all quirky with their odd names and shaved knuckles in the hole. Nope. Couldn't be that kind of book.

Sigh.

I'll stop using 'good' and 'bad' when describing characters because that's apparently a bit too complicated. Instead I'll use protagonist and antagonist. Clearly CG is the antagonist of the story. Karsa is clearly a protagonist of the story. And Malazan absolutely has the 'protagonist defeats the big antagonist god' storyline.

Again, the big exception to all of this is DHG (and to a lesser extent HoC), which don't deal with this storyline much at all and does have a far more humanistic tale to it that does not have clear desired sides. It also is, I feel, his strongest work of the lot.

You probably do not want to add too many spoilers for future books in this thread, given that it's for people who haven't finished GotM.

[Arakasi]

It's not quite that simple though. Yes there are antagonists, and the CG is one of the main ones. And there are plenty of people who qualify as protagonists. But they're not necessarily working for each other. In recent books many significant deaths and events have been between people who are both opposed to the CG. So it really descends into a more complex arrangement of shifting alliances based on motivations of the major players involved, as well as the mortals caught in the wake. Karsa has done plenty of things that served the CG's purpose.

Still think it comes down to style. Look at the Iliad. Its a story about mortals locked in a war getting help from various gods, filled with treachery and uses of power and such. Or Silmarillion, which is similar but in a more modern way. I feel this series in its approach takes much more from those books (with a dash of the war is hell/band of brothers stuff we'd see in Vietnam books or the Black Company books) more than it ties in to any idea of character driven fantasy. I've read Rothfuss, read Abercrombie and some of the other new writers. And of course I've read Martin and all they. They are good (even great in Martin's case) writers but character driven story isn't the only way to approach storytelling. Rothfuss's first book for example was fun to read, but I could tell from page 30 where the story was going, and while crafted well it just felt like more of the same that I'd read before. Same for Abercombrie. True there is nothing really original anymore, but for example in MT how Erikson weaves in cautionary warnings of the United States' future was something I found compelling and unique.

There are good characters in Erikson, but no you shouldn't be reading him if thats your main point of interest in novels. If you want to read books that explore some complex themes, or anthropology/archeology, or a vast history or a complex interwoven plot of mortals/gods in conflict, well then maybe read Erikson. I'm just not sure why so many seem to think their preferences are the right ones. I might not like Wolfe or Bakker, but I can appreciate what they're trying to do in their novels, even if it doesn't appeal to me.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1472965' date='Aug 8 2008, 18.18']Again, the big exception to all of this is DHG (and to a lesser extent HoC), which don't deal with this storyline much at all and does have a far more humanistic tale to it that does not have clear desired sides. It also is, I feel, his strongest work of the lot.[/quote]


MT amd TTH also don't have well defined protagonists and antagonists. Which side is protagonist in MT? Probably neither. And TTH is too much of a mess, plotwise, to have any single defined antagonist (OK. it isn't necessarily a good thing, but this si the way this book was wrtiien).

[Gigei]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1472965' date='Aug 8 2008, 11.18']Karsa is clearly a protagonist of the story.[/quote]

Rapists make great protagonists. We love those guys who, you know, want to destroy our culture, while killing many, many people in the process. Oh wait, is the CG trying to kill people, too? However, Karsa is clearly the "good" guy because he has muscles while CG is crippled and ugly.

[quote]Again, the big exception to all of this is DHG (and to a lesser extent HoC), which don't deal with this storyline much at all and does have a far more humanistic tale to it that does not have clear desired sides. It also is, I feel, his strongest work of the lot.[/quote]

Ah well, we agree on that part and I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the CG parts. I simply view it differently.

I'm gonna pissed btw if Crokus ends up the king of everything. :P

[quote]You probably do not want to add too many spoilers for future books in this thread, given that it's for people who haven't finished GotM.[/quote]

Noooo the OP finished GotM and he at least knows the general outline of DG. I will try to keep the spoilers out though.

[Kalbear]

[quote]Rapists make great protagonists. We love those guys who, you know, want to destroy our culture, while killing many, many people in the process. Oh wait, is the CG trying to kill people, too?[/quote]You really don't actually understand what the definition of 'protagonist' is, do you?
[quote]However, Karsa is clearly the "good" guy because he has muscles while CG is crippled and ugly.[/quote]Yes, and this is why Jaime is so awesome while Tyrion sucks.

Really, find another board to troll badly on. That shit doesn't work here. Go look up [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protagonist"]what protagonist means[/url] and why I'm using that instead of good guy and figure out where you went wrong.

[Gigei]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1473047' date='Aug 8 2008, 12.23']You really don't actually understand what the definition of 'protagonist' is, do you?
Yes, and this is why Jaime is so awesome while Tyrion sucks.[/quote]

You really don't understand what the definition of "great" is, do you?

[quote]Really, find another board to troll badly on. That shit doesn't work here. Go look up [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protagonist"]what protagonist means[/url] and why I'm using that instead of good guy and figure out where you went wrong.[/quote]

Stay polite. It's what we do here. And I have been here since 2001 or possibly 2000. Yes, when we were in the old forums.

[url="http://p094.ezboard.com/fasoiaffrm6.showMessageRange?topicID=4.topic&start=181&stop=200"]http://p094.ezboard.com/fasoiaffrm6.showMe...81&stop=200[/url]

No one has ever asked me to leave or called me a troll except for you.

[Trencher]

In addition to the flat characters, I found his world lacking description and detail. It never came alive for me and I never really could tell what the topography was (unless it is all a desert up through DG?).

I want to be fair, Felisin is a character who I did dislike, but I am hoping for a sympathetic character or at least to care about just one of them in order to continue. But it's easy to create a character you hate. I could just add her to the list of characters I wanted to die (to be hopefully replaced with something more interesting).

Erikson is very good at battle scenes and action, but it falls flat for me since I don't really care about the outcomes of any of them since character development is so minimal.

Gegei's criticism is just a straw man. She keeps going back to the only reason someone dislikes Erikson is because it's not a simple standard fantasy. I'm not sure why people make up completely bogus arguments like that. Is that why we like ASoIAF so much? All the elves and dwarves and powerful wizards and magic swords and flying castles? Well the first two anyway (the others are Erikson's completely original ideas that you can also get from Dragonlance.) Taking out elves and dwarves and plugging in other races instead isn't enough.

[Kalbear]

You're right, that wasn't very polite. I get annoyed at certain things like a total disregard for using definitions of words properly, but that was uncalled for. I'm sorry.

Still, you missed the point. Saying Karsa isn't a protagonist because he rapes people and causes mayhem is simply incorrect. Heck, Hannibal Lecter makes a great protagonist because of the horrible things he does; he's a fascinating character to observe. Karsa is the protagonist because we get his story and he is the prime actor in his story. The crippled god is an antagonist because he opposes the protagonist's actions. Protagonists have nothing to do with morals or ethics. It's simply a term describing the main character. That's it. It has nothing to do with how OMG totally awesome Karsa is, and how eeww gross CG is. It's a literary term.

Karsa happens to be my least favorite of the plethora of bad characters, and is a very big reason why House of Chains sucked so bad. All IMO, of course. But that view doesn't make him any more or less of a protagonist in the story.

[Gigei]

[quote name='Trencher' post='1473093' date='Aug 8 2008, 13.55']Gegei's criticism is just a straw man. She keeps going back to the only reason someone dislikes Erikson is because it's not a simple standard fantasy.[/quote]

Excuse me, I never said that was the only reason. I have stated before that I do understand why people can simply *not like* Malazan and that it is a matter of taste.

[quote]I'm not sure why people make up completely bogus arguments like that. Is that why we like ASoIAF so much? All the elves and dwarves and powerful wizards and magic swords and flying castles? Well the first two anyway (the others are Erikson's completely original ideas that you can also get from Dragonlance.) Taking out elves and dwarves and plugging in other races instead isn't enough.[/quote]

Hmmm comparing Malazan and ASoIaF is rather out there considering that they are *very* different. Just because you like one type of unconventional fantasy doesn't mean that you would like the other. Nor have I ever said that you would or should do so.

Again I have never said that Malazan had original ideas.

[quote]Oh please, I already went through that point ages ago. There are no "new" plots. At all. There is no such thing.[/quote]

[quote]As for not being "new" lol few writers are. Even ASoIaF isn't terribly "new" either. GRRM simply writes better than most but it isn't "new" at all.[/quote]

P.S. The Tiste are the elves in Malazan. Not sure about the dwarves, they will probably turn up in Assail or something.

*sigh* Also, I never said Karsa was not a protagonist. I just said (implied really) that he was not a *great* protagonist. Emphasis on the great. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear but this is the internet, not direct communication. I assure you that in my head I was saying "great" with heavy sarcasm. I think he is not a great antagonist because he is badly written. Plus, his actions and motivations are crap.

*shivers* Many people like him though.

My old post on this character:

[quote]HoC - omg Yawnsa Orshort, why did I have to suffer reading all that crap?[/quote]

I am familiar with the literary term but it is mostly meaningless based on the argument I was making which is "good vs bad." Protagonist vs antagonist can refer to anyone doing anything, which is not what I was going for at all. That's *your* point, I believe, not mine.

Meh, as for the previous unpleasantness, it's alright. The argument is getting heated, it happens.

[Trencher]

[quote name='Gigei' post='1473109' date='Aug 8 2008, 13.09']Excuse me, I never said that was the only reason. I have stated before that I do understand why people can simply *not like* Malazan and that it is a matter of taste.[/quote]

Yet you said-

[quote]My original point was simply that people expect your usual fantasy forumla here which is very basic - our heroes defeat the big bad. Malazan doesn't have this.[/quote]

What evidence do you have that, "people expect your usual [very basic] fantasy formula here"? That is a straw man argument and is just a weak attempt to insult those who disagree with you about Erikson's writing. I was just expecting a good series! I don't care about, nor was expecting, usual basic fantasy formulas. It's as if to say, "Those people just can't think outside of the box...". Sigh.

[Kalbear]

[quote]*sigh* Also, I never said Karsa was not a protagonist. I just said (implied really) that he was not a *great* protagonist. Emphasis on the great. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear but this is the internet, not direct communication. I assure you that in my head I was saying "great" with heavy sarcasm. I think he is not a great antagonist because he is badly written. Plus, his actions and motivations are crap.[/quote]I understood that sarcasm; perhaps I didn't understand that what you meant was that he was just boring in general, not that he wasn't a great protagonist in the sense that he gets the story moving. I don't think he's an interesting character and in that respect he's really a poor protagonist, but in terms of having the story revolve around him he works out pretty well.

Malazan isn't about good and evil, at least not some of the time. (MoI was certainly about good and evil, or perhaps super evil vs. slightly more palatable evil). Malazan's protagonists certainly aren't good guys all of the time either. It doesn't really change the fact that at the end of the day, you've got a bunch of heroic types going against an evil god that wants to destroy the world.

[Gigei]

[quote name='Trencher' post='1473120' date='Aug 8 2008, 14.20']Yet you said-

What evidence do you have that, "people expect your usual [very basic] fantasy formula here"? That is a straw man argument and is just a weak attempt to insult those who disagree with you about Erikson's writing. I was just expecting a good series! I don't care about, nor was expecting, usual basic fantasy formulas. It's as if to say, "Those people just can't think outside of the box...". Sigh.[/quote]

The formula I was talking about was "the heroes take on the baddies" thing. I believe I was talking about the characters of Malazan, who are *not* heroes. Hence, the whole messy argument we had about "good" and "protagonists" and what not. :P People read the series based on their notions of "these are the good guys, fighting the baddies" sort of thing.

I apologize if you found it offensive, however this is one the points I was trying to get across, perhaps unsuccesfully. I wasn't really trying to offend the posters here but this is generally what I find people think about Malazan, which I disagree with. I notice a lot of people tend to root for the BBs and certain favorite characters while I think their actions are not entirely good.

Er I would go through the whole "there are no heroes" thing again but clearly this would be going around in cirlces. There is no real reason to say the same old thing 10 times in 10 different ways.

[Arakasi]

Not really Kalbear. That is just one part of the plot. Yes there is the struggle against the Crippled God. That's like saying ASOIAF is a story about a bunch of guys fighting the Others. (that is what it will probably come down to in the end) There are plenty of struggles in his world that are not about the CG at all. If they don't interest you, than so be it. But they are there and they are a not insignificant part of the series.

[cseresz]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1472918' date='Aug 8 2008, 17.56']On Bantam's website I found a link to an old press release announcing that the series had sold 250,000 copies in total. However, as the link didn't work any more there's no way to tell when that was issued.[/quote]

By the way Werthead, is this true:

[quote]Big Tor Buy of 10-Book Fantasy
by John F. Baker -- Publishers Weekly, 1/26/2004

A fantasy series spreading over an expansive 10 books, written by a Canadian author and launched some years ago in the U.K., has been bought by James Mintz at Tor in a major deal. It's called Malazon Book of the Fallen, by archeologist and anthropologist Steven Erikson, who was living in England when Bantam U.K. published the first volume, Gardens of the Moon, in paperback four years ago. The response was so enthusiastic that the house went back to Erikson and paid the sterling equivalent of [b]$1.24 million[/b] for the remaining nine books. Mintz bought North American rights from Howard Morhaim here. Gardens will be brought out by Tor in hardcover (for the first time) in June.[/quote]

edited: a colleague of mine found this: [url="http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/used-books/9434815585-copy.html"]30.000?[/url]
[quote]Seller Comments:Malazan Book of the Fallen Volume 7. The guy is gaining in popularity. His dark fantasy (like the Malazan books) gets all kinds of great reviews. Gets a[b] 30, 000 initial printing[/b].[/quote]

[Myshkin]

[quote]Out of your depth, Captain? Don't worry, every damn person here's out of their depth. Some know it, some don't. It's the ones who don't you got to worry about. Start with what's right in front of you and forget the rest for now. It'll show up in its own time.[/quote]
Are you still trying to claim that those of us who don't like Erikson simply "don't get it"? That Erikson's writing is too deep for us? I am going to ask you to please stop taking this tact, because it is getting old, and really does nothing but make you look like a fool. Why can't you accept that we do "get it", but we simply don't like it? Honestly, this is like talking to a Goodkind fan.

Gigie,

I'm sorry if this is rude, but your statement that there is no "Big Bad" is ridiculous. The Crippled God may have sympathetic motives, but that doesn't make him a different type of character. He is still the "Big Bad", he is still the awesomely powerful god who our protagonists must face in order to save the world. This make him [i]exactly[/i] the same type of character as Sauron, or Shai'tan, or Lord Foul.

[Gigei]

Ooooh $1.24 million? Nice.

[quote name='cseresz' post='1473141' date='Aug 8 2008, 14.39']By the way Werthead, is this true:
edited: a colleague of mine found this: [url="http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/used-books/9434815585-copy.html"]30.000?[/url][/quote]

I am surprised though, cseresz, for some reason I got the impression that sales were not that good. The books are not available here either except for *one* bookstore so I thought distribution was spotty. :(

[quote]Gigie[/quote]

[quote]Gegei[/quote]

Actually it's Gigei.

[quote]He is still the "Big Bad", he is still the awesomely powerful god who our protagonists must face in order to save the world. This make him exactly the same type of character as Sauron, or Shai'tan, or Lord Foul.[/quote]

It is if you are expecting him to get defeated/killed as per the usual fantasy thing. Which I don't.

Likewise I never said he was an original character. For the 100000th time, I have never used the words "new" or "original." That was you guys saying he wasn't original. Not me saying he was original.

What I said was of a piece with the whole thing which was exactly what you *are* saying which is that everyone is out to get the CG when in fact, almost all the characters are *not* out to get him at all.

Karsa, just to name one, isn't out to kill the CG, he is out to get *everyone*. The T'lan Imass don't give a fig for anything but their own war, not surprising since they have had ages and did the Ritual but they still haven't completely won it. Now, Shadowthrone, presumably *is* out to get the CG but not as his main motivation though it is rather hard to tell since he is crazy and unpredictable. I really doubt that a guy like ST is only trying to stop the CG. LOL.

In fact, is there anyone, anyone at all, whose main motivation is to get this so-called "big bad" of the series?

Frankly, CG is just one of the many, many perils that beset Wu. This is a series where you have got several waves of Tiste invaders, Jade Giants from space, K'chain Kemalle, Tyrants, Kallor, etc., who at one point where the worldwide perils that the big guys had to take a hand in to stop. Note that Kallor was the original bad guy the CG was called forth to stop. CG is just one of those guys. He is not the "big bad" of the series even though some readers persist on seeing him as such, as per the usual fantasy formula.

SPOILER: also

Hood, one of the gods who is explicitely stated to be opposing the CG ends up doing something else...because, you know there are many, many other things to do.

Felisin, Herboric, Tavore, Coltaine, Lostara Yil, Tool, Duiker, Brys, etc. are not in any way protagonists who must face the Crippled God.

The Sauron, Lord Foul, Shai'tan thing has everyone working hard to defeat him, which does not hold true of Malazan. Oh, probably the guys like Rake and Osric would lend a hand to help out people to handle the CG but he is [i]hardly[/i] their main opponent.

You know, this is exactly my point, people like to reduce things to easy formulas like "a band of different protagonists all working to defeat the evil god" which I think is simplifying Malazan to a horrifying degree.

I hope that was not offensive.

[quote name='Arakasi' post='1473137' date='Aug 8 2008, 14.35']Not really Kalbear. That is just one part of the plot. Yes there is the struggle against the Crippled God. That's like saying ASOIAF is a story about a bunch of guys fighting the Others. (that is what it will probably come down to in the end) There are plenty of struggles in his world that are not about the CG at all. If they don't interest you, than so be it. But they are there and they are a not insignificant part of the series.[/quote]

Well said, and better than I have done. I should probably keep my posts shorter, too.

[duchess of malfi]

[quote name='Myshkin' post='1473458' date='Aug 8 2008, 20.25']Gigie,

I'm sorry if this is rude, but your statement that there is no "Big Bad" is ridiculous. The Crippled God may have sympathetic motives, but that doesn't make him a different type of character. He is still the "Big Bad", he is still the awesomely powerful god who our protagonists must face in order to save the world. This make him [i]exactly[/i] the same type of character as Sauron, or Shai'tan, or Lord Foul.[/quote]
Actually, couldn't the Crippled God be almost exactly compared to Lord Foul? Both of them have a main goal of escaping imprisonment, and do not care if it destroys the world if they do so? And both usually work through others rather than acting directly themselves?

[Joanna vander Poele]

[quote name='Gigei' post='1472543' date='Aug 8 2008, 04.17']Mhybe makes the ultimate sacrifice but all the readers hate her because she whines sooooo damn much about it.[/quote]
Actually I thought the Mhybe's story was heartbreaking and really sad. I felt terrible for her. I was so utterly shocked and surprised at the amount of vitriol and hatred toward her when I read other people's reviews of MoI. :leaving:

[Gigei]

[quote name='duchess of malfi' post='1473497' date='Aug 8 2008, 22.01']Actually, couldn't the Crippled God be almost exactly compared to Lord Foul? Both of them have a main goal of escaping imprisonment, and do not care if it destroys the world if they do so? And both usually work through others rather than acting directly themselves?[/quote]

I don't think Lord Foul works as an example of a "stock bad guy" character, for several spoilerish reasons. Sauron, yes. Shai'tan, yes.

Well, I might need to reread the series but from what I remember.

SPOILER: perhaps

Lord Foul *is* the main character. Covenant cannot defeat him in the usual way because... Lord Foul and Covenant are the same. :cheers: The story also takes place internally (inside of Covenant's head) which makes things messy.

That is a good comparison, though. I kinda like it. There are many parallels between the two although Foul was evil from the start whereas the CG isn't. Who is the Thomas Covenant character in Malazan, though?

[quote]Actually I thought the Mhybe's story was heartbreaking and really sad. I felt terrible for her.[/quote]

Uh huh.

SPOILER: Mhybe

I'm sure we would all get depressed if we had a life-sucking death baby prematurely age and then kill us.

[Errant Bard]

[quote]In fact, is there anyone, anyone at all, whose main motivation is to get this so-called "big bad" of the series?[/quote]On the top of my head, I would say Quick Ben, Paran, Shadowthrone, Cotillion, Krul, Burn. Main motivation is not really a factor, most of the time the heroes main motivation is living in peace, eating, getting it on with their girlfriend, proving the world he is the strongest, becoming pirate king, and it just so happens the big bad stand in their way. That's what happen with all the protagonists, were the CG a bit more crafty and less obnoxious in its methods, he would just be one of the gods in the background.

[quote name='Gigei' post='1473494' date='Aug 9 2008, 03.59']Felisin, Herboric, Tavore, Coltaine, Lostara Yil, Tool, Duiker, Brys, etc. are not in any way protagonists who must face the Crippled God.[/quote]In regard of the serie in its globality, they are support characters at most, irrelevant ones at worst. They show up in one or two books, do something badass then die. This is just one example of Erikson being verbose in side stories.

Anyway, for the rest it's clear the serie revolves around the opposition between the crippled god followers and the rest, those who want to save Burn, life, the universe and everything. Followers of the CG are shown to be the bad guys consistently (what with the chaos magic, the sengar, etc) while the others are all those guys you can feel have character sheets and are levelling up from book to book (which doesn't prevent them from having sometimes chaotic evil alignments)


And the Mhybe does whine too much, for someone only bringing cheap melodrama to the table.