Israel attacks Gaza

[Samalander]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1633469' date='Dec 30 2008, 02.56']No, it doesn't. It's what you post that makes you a bigot. You don't need our help.[/quote]
I visited Canada once. Spent a month there.
The thing I remeber most (other than the ridiculous cold; never visit Canada in the winter) is the serene calm overlapping everything and everyone. Maybe it was just the effect of the snow.
Bigotry is basicaly taking a broad brush to an entire people. But so is Stereotyping. The difference is a bigot thinks of people as beneath him. Stereotyping is an evolutionary necessity people developed. I stereotype. I do. It is the only way to survive here. And people who live in such a sheltered bubble, can't possibly even begin to conceive what it is like to live here.

[G'Kar]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1633482' date='Dec 29 2008, 20.04']I visited Canada once. Spent a month there.
The thing I remeber most (other than the ridiculous cold; never visit Canada in the winter) is the serene calm overlapping everything and everyone. Maybe it was just the effect of the snow.
Bigotry is basicaly taking a broad brush to an entire people. But so is Stereotyping. The difference is a bigot thinks of people as beneath him. Stereotyping is an evolutionary necessity people developed. I stereotype. I do. It is the only way to survive here. And people who live in such a sheltered bubble, can't possibly even begin to conceive what it is like to live here.[/quote]

I think the next correct step is too blame Canada for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Or Belguim. Whichever.

[Samalander]

[quote name='The Prisoner' post='1633479' date='Dec 30 2008, 02.59']Gotta be honest folks, not seeing the bigotry. Sammy is claiming that the concept of a Palestinian people did not exist prior to the creation of the Jewish state. That while Jews have had the concept of Israel as a homeland for centuries, this concept of Palestinian right to self-determination only arose during the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.[/quote]
:bow:
Yes. It is so very late here. I'm not coming across as I intend.

[Lord O' Bones]

[quote name='Dornish' post='1633477' date='Dec 29 2008, 16.58']You're suggesting any group of people can become a nation simply by calling itself as such? Insanity.[/quote]
It worked for the Red Sox.

[quote name='The Prisoner' post='1633479' date='Dec 29 2008, 16.59']Gotta be honest folks, not seeing the bigotry.[/quote]
This has me somewhat perplexed as well.

[Lord of Oop North]

Samalander,

Maybe I'm getting the wrong impression, but it seemed like you were trying to write off any Pro-Palestinian argument because "they didn't exist" or "they are a made-up people". To me, that feels like a really arrogant thing to say, and something that would be used to justify questionable actions against said people. I don't think you can simply say that they didn't exist as a nation, and therefore have no current rights to the land or to self-determination. That's ludicrous. They obviously exist today, and did exist, at the time of Israel's creation. Whether you want to admit it or not, they were living there. It all just seems like a subconsciously bigoted way of writing them off.

It reminds me of an [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k"]Eddie Izzard[/url] skit, where he comments on how the British stole countries through the cunning use of flags. It goes something like this;

British: [plants flag] I claim India for Britain!
Indians: You can't claim us, we live here! There are 500 million of us!
British: Do you have a flag?
Indians: We don't need a bloody flag, it's our country!
British: No flag. No country. That's the rules.

Regardless, this is all kind of besides the point, since using historical claims is not going to solve anything.

[quote]And people who live in such a sheltered bubble, can't possibly even begin to conceive what it is like to live here.[/quote]
Oh, please. Cut the crap. Around here, 50% of the population wasn't even born in this country. Many of them used to live in places where the exact same kind of shit goes down. Yes, I live in sheltered and bubbly Canada, so I obviously have no idea what I'm talking about. :rolleyes:

[Lord O' Bones]

[quote name='Lord of the North' post='1633494' date='Dec 29 2008, 17.20']I live in sheltered and bubbly Canada, so I obviously have no idea what I'm talking about.[/quote]
I [i]think[/i] he meant living under constant threat, not Canadians' lack of knowledge.

Eddie Izzard rocks.

[Shryke]

Come now, LOTN, Palestinians are just like those filthy Native Americans and their made up culture and what not.

[Bronn Stone]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1633482' date='Dec 29 2008, 17.04']And people who live in such a sheltered bubble, can't possibly even begin to conceive what it is like to live here.[/quote]

Same here. Different sheltered bubble. But I can't possibly conceive of a place where the vast majority believes a policy that has lead to nothing but forty years of bloodshed and grief is going to lead anywhere else. Where the vast majority believe that if you respond to violent insult with hugely escalated violent insult that you'll accomplish anything but a perpetuation of the misery of the past four decades.

The ONLY hope for peace is an offer of GENEROUS terms by Israel. 1967 borders. No wall anywhere but on the Israeli side of those borders. Recognition of any government the Palestinians choose to set above themselves.

The scraps of Gaza offered so far are an insult. The scraps of the West Bank so far not even offered are worse.

Jerusalem is the biggest problem. But with 100% concession on the other two, the Israelis might just find that those weary of the conflict are willing to accept adjustments there as well.

But as long as ONE West Bank settlement remains on the wrong side of 1967, you are JUST as wrong as they are. And you'll never have the idyllic lifestyle of a people at peace. True peace is a faint hope, given the recent history. But a greater hope than the foolish course you persist on following.

[Ser Reptitious]

[quote name='Bronn Stone' post='1633510' date='Dec 29 2008, 18.49']Same here. Different sheltered bubble. But I can't possibly conceive of a place where the vast majority believes a policy that has lead to nothing but forty years of bloodshed and grief is going to lead anywhere else. Where the vast majority believe that if you respond to violent insult with hugely escalated violent insult that you'll accomplish anything but a perpetuation of the misery of the past four decades.

The ONLY hope for peace is an offer of GENEROUS terms by Israel. 1967 borders. No wall anywhere but on the Israeli side of those borders. Recognition of any government the Palestinians choose to set above themselves.

The scraps of Gaza offered so far are an insult. The scraps of the West Bank so far not even offered are worse.

Jerusalem is the biggest problem. But with 100% concession on the other two, the Israelis might just find that those weary of the conflict are willing to accept adjustments there as well.

But as long as ONE West Bank settlement remains on the wrong side of 1967, you are JUST as wrong as they are. And you'll never have the idyllic lifestyle of a people at peace. True peace is a faint hope, given the recent history. But a greater hope than the foolish course you persist on following.[/quote]

Well said!

[Ser King]

Isreal is wrong, end of story.

I mean think about it, Isreal was FORCED upon the original population. They were forced on both Muslims, Christians, AND Jews.

[the silent speaker]

[quote]Really, I had no idea the Palestinians arrived in Palestine in 1800. So what are they teaching you about who was living between the Mediterranean and the Jordan from the time of the Jewish diaspora and the past "couple of centuries"?[/quote]
Nobody. More precisely, a few tens of thousands of people, a number of whom were Jewish. (Not all, or even I think most, this is true.) When Mark Twain visited in the 1860s he commented how "Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes" and he saw not another human soul along the entire trip from Gaza to Jerusalem.

[Ser King]

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1633543' date='Dec 29 2008, 22.24']Nobody. More precisely, a few tens of thousands of people, a number of whom were Jewish. (Not all, or even I think most, this is true.) When Mark Twain visited in the 1860s he commented how "Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes" and he saw not another human soul along the entire trip from Gaza to Jerusalem.[/quote]


This is completely retarded. The jews in Israel at the moment have no historical claim to the Israel of the bible, or anything in the middle east in general. What I find preposterous is the justification given to validate the existence of Israel (I myself dont have a problem with the existence of Isreal, to a certain extinct). The justification given is that if your Jewish, then Israel is yours regardless of history AND GENETICS.

I would like to remind everyone that Hebrews and Jews are two different terminologies.

Hebrew = a branch of the Semitic race (as are Arabs, ext.)

Jews = a follower of Judaism regardless of race.

I hope I cleared some misconceptions, if not, I dont really care :thumbsup:

[Lord O' Bones]

[quote name='Wolf King' post='1633552' date='Dec 29 2008, 18.37']This is completely retarded.[/quote]
Really? Even Mark Twain? Interesting.

[Ser King]

[quote name='Lord O' Bones' post='1633554' date='Dec 29 2008, 22.40']Really? Even Mark Twain? Interesting.[/quote]


The accounts of Mark Twain are not absolute proves, heck I dont even consider them proves. Its like me going back to England and randomly chucking out a resident out of his house and justifying that by claiming the house he lived in belong to my great-great-great-great-great-great-great uncle Bob.

[Bronn Stone]

[quote name='Wolf King' post='1633552' date='Dec 29 2008, 18.37'](I myself dont have a problem with the existence of Isreal, to a certain [b]extinct[/b]).[/quote] - [i]emphasis mine[/i]
That is the funniest Malapropism I've seen here in years.

[Ser King]

[quote name='Bronn Stone' post='1633563' date='Dec 29 2008, 21.52']- [i]emphasis mine[/i]
That is the funniest Malapropism I've seen here in years.[/quote]


hahahahahah, this is the second time I did that, TODAY!

[The_BlauerDragon]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1633503' date='Dec 29 2008, 18.35']Come now, LOTN, Palestinians are just like those filthy Native Americans and their made up culture and what not.[/quote]

Not really, when we were invaded and over-powered by a hostile force, we eventually got the point. We went to the reservations and stopped raiding and attacking. We didn't like it. Most of us still don't like it. That doesn't change the fact that we were civil about it.

[Ser King]

[quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1633568' date='Dec 29 2008, 22.05']Not really, when we were invaded and over-powered by a hostile force, we eventually got the point. We went to the reservations and stopped raiding and attacking. We didn't like it. Most of us still don't like it. That doesn't change the fact that we were civil about it.[/quote]


Dont you mean you guys gave up after 90% of your people were wiped out?

[snake]

[quote name='Wolf King' post='1633576' date='Dec 29 2008, 23.16']Dont you mean you guys gave up after 90% of your people were wiped out?[/quote]

That's pretty much the case and it took a couple of hundred years for hostilities to cease. This conflict hasn't been half that long.

[Shryke]

[quote name='snake' post='1633578' date='Dec 29 2008, 22.20']That's pretty much the case and it took a couple of hundred years for hostilities to cease. This conflict hasn't been half that long.[/quote]

I guess Israel should be encouraging Palestinians to build casinos then. /nods firmly