Israel in Gaza - General Thread II

[Werthead]

[quote name='Usotsuki' post='1644223' date='Jan 11 2009, 02.51']That's an extremely eccentric reading of the Kadima rationale for withdrawal from Gaza.[/quote]

So the Palestinians would prefer that the Israelis had remained in Gaza?

Gotcha.

:unsure:

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='The Khaleesi' post='1644067' date='Jan 10 2009, 17.37']This is an interesting article.....[b]guardian.co.uk[/b][/quote]

....does not compute...than again, haven't read it yet. Ok, I've read it now. Apparently foreign governments have no right to withhold foreign aid to entities they don't like and doing so constitutes a sinister plot to bring down a lawful government. Hamas is apparently a mere radical group that has moderated...even though they still call for killing jews and death to Israel in their charter. We have the causes of the most recent war spelled out without mention of the hundreds of Hamas rockets fired.

Ahhh, ok. We got to the rockets. Another couple paragraphs down. But he's already made it clear with the David and Goliath comparisons that such things don't matter. Now Israel broke the ceasefire? How did that happen? Shutting down a smuggling tunnel? (no mention of the tunnel here) Also had a cute take on the withdrawal of the Gazan settlements. A clear response to pressure from Hamas and a clear victory for them? Right...

To say the guy lacks perspective is understatement. All things considered he's not completely nuts, but he paints an obnoxiously one-sided picture that's not terribly defensible. He leaves out more than a bit of inconvenient context and he plays down to ridiculous degrees the bits of fact that don't jive with his conclusions. He also has very colorful language for all the bad shit Israel has done, apparently emptying his thesaurus before he got to Hamas. Who come off more as poorly misunderstood unfortunate victims in this whole mess. We'll call this a fairly intelligent hatchet piece, but its still a hatchet piece.

[quote name='Malatesta' post='1644216' date='Jan 10 2009, 20.44']If you open with this you should probably just say nothing.[/quote]

Take your own advice.

[The Green Fish]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1643844' date='Jan 10 2009, 22.13']This is a bit more subtle than Lyreiania's rather sickening post, but I am noticing a trend from our Israeli posters. It appears that Palestinians have already been thoroughly dehumanized in their eyes. Which naturally makes it much easier to swallow any manner of atrocity committed against them, cause they're all murderous, death loving savages anyway. And by the slim chance that an ounce of empathy slips through, the Israeli ministry of Propaganda can provide a conscience soothing explanation for the incident. Which everyone seems eager to swallow hook, line and sinker...and since the independent press is still being dicked around and restricted, there are few contrary reports.[/quote]

As far as I know, Israel doesn't have a ministry of prpaganda, or anything remotely similar.

[quote]You are not the good guys. This doesn't mean Hamas or the Palestinians are either, but you're sure as fuck not. You guys don't have shiny little halos. Your soldiers and government are capable doing terrible things and than lying about it. They're not as careful, precise, or omnipotent with their intelligence as you seem to think they are. So when 30 kids die and your relevant official said they took every reasonable step to prevent loss of innocent life, that's not necessarily true. When a school or mosque gets bombed...it doesn't have a weapons stash simply because the government spokesman says it does. When a UN marked building or designated civilian shelter gets destroyed, killing dozens of civilians, sometimes the story of Hamas militants firing rockets from the roof is a manufactured excuse after the fact.[/quote]
1. Yes, we're not as careful, precise or omnipotent with our intelligence. We do have, though, a pretty good intelligence, and we use it whenever possible to minimlize "civilian casualties".

2. EHK, I believe you're a strong supporter of Israel's cause, and I appreciate it (correct me if I'm wrong), but I also find your expectation of Israel to be 'holier than the pope' ("shiny halos", "using omnipotent intelligence" etc.) a bit racist. As if jews (and only jews) are expected to behave in the holiest way possible, or else they lose all their merit. Or as some Jewish American told a famous Israeli writer once:
"We, Jews, ought to be the victims, not the victimizers".
Guess what, even Jews can't fight sterile wars, and even the Israeli army lies (just as any other army in the world does once in a while). And we can do all that and still be the good guys... (or at least deserve support when fighting Hammas)

[quote]These things might be able to be confirmed or denied, but there's very little independent press in the region...because of Israel. Do you guys get that your government is running a propaganda war along with the shooting war and it is in their direct best interests to lie about some of these things? That they are absolutely capable of doing so? And that the rational objective position would be to treat ABSOLUTELY everything from the mouth of an Israeli government spokesman with a MASSIVE grain of salt?[/quote]
Of course, and I hope we win that war too (and that no one will lose his moustache in that PR war...)

[Usotsuki]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1644230' date='Jan 11 2009, 02.57']So the Palestinians would prefer that the Israelis had remained in Gaza?

Gotcha.

:unsure:[/quote]

No, you were citing the withdrawal from Gaza as proof that the state of Israel was in fact intent on taking the steps for creating a lasting peace, given that the withdrawal from Gaza was an attempt to freeze the peace process, "an injection of formaldehyde" it hardly qualifies.

[Werthead]

[quote]We do have, though, a pretty good intelligence[/quote]

The BBC had a report in which they pointed out that Israel is heavily dependant on local informants (i.e. bribed Palestinians in Gaza) for targeting information on Hamas strongholds, due to an inability to insert their own agents into the area. There was also speculation on the reliability of such sources. They didn't point out an obvious flaw, namely that such sources could start feeding false information to the Israelis (either on their own backs, or on Hamas orders or through simply making shit up as they didn't want to go snooping around a possible Hamas arms dump) with potentially catatrophic results.

[quote]No, you were citing the withdrawal from Gaza as proof that the state of Israel was in fact intent on taking the steps for creating a lasting peace, given that the withdrawal from Gaza was an attempt to freeze the peace process, "an injection of formaldehyde" it hardly qualifies.[/quote]

It does appear that Israel was taking the steps it felt it had to since it no longer had a negotiating partner in Gaza (due to, you know, Hamas vowing to destroy Israel in its totality). So Israel was acting unilaterally and, yes, acknowledging the cessation of the peace process brought about by the rise to power by Hamas in Gaza. However, I don't see how Israel maintaining a presence in Gaza would have helped the peace process when it resumes, as you seem to be suggesting.

That statement from Israel does seem to be rather broad and seems to include the West Bank as well, which seems odd.

[Ser King]

[quote name='Commodore' post='1644149' date='Jan 10 2009, 21.27']Alan Dershowitz says Hamas is commiting [url="http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-dershowitz10-2009jan10,0,4232460.story?track=rss"]war crimes[/url]



Why anyone would want to defend people that fire rockets from schools and hospitals and temples to ensure their own civilians get killed is beyond me, since it's indefensible.[/quote]

One can only hope, Commodore, that the act of killing unarmed women and children in the refugee camp known as Gaza restores the Israeli Defense Force's sense of masculinity, which was crushed last year, at the hands of Hezbolla, in Lebanon. Maybe when they feel like "real warriors" they will pick up their million dollar war toys, paid for by you and I, and return to Israel, to live behind 20 foot tall concrete walls. May they have nightmares every night as the ghosts of dead children appear to them, in all their bloody gore.

[G'Kar]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1644240' date='Jan 10 2009, 22.13']The BBC had a report in which they pointed out that [b]Israel is heavily dependant on local informants (i.e. bribed Palestinians in Gaza) for targeting information on Hamas strongholds, due to an inability to insert their own agents into the area.[/b] There was also speculation on the reliability of such sources. They didn't point out an obvious flaw, namely that such sources could start feeding false information to the Israelis (either on their own backs, or on Hamas orders or through simply making shit up as they didn't want to go snooping around a possible Hamas arms dump) with potentially catatrophic results.[/quote]

To be fair, there is no way to know all of Israel's sources. If they had infiltrated Hamas or turned a member of the Hamas into a double agaent, or had other effective methods of acquiring Intel, why would we know about it?

[Piper]

Samalander, others,

I understand, and agree, with your right to protect yourselves and your citizens.

After all אם אין אני לי, מי לי

But don't forget, the next part is וכשאני לעצמי, מה אני

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote]As far as I know, Israel doesn't have a ministry of prpaganda, or anything remotely similar.[/quote]

Obviously they don't name it that. But whichever official is talking about the rockets fire from and weapons stashes under every significant civilian kill site, that/they is who I'm referring to. This is as much a PR war as it is a shooting one and Israel is absolutely employing propaganda to support its own ends.

[quote]2. EHK, I believe you're a strong supporter of Israel's cause, and I appreciate it (correct me if I'm wrong), but I also find your expectation of Israel to be 'holier than the pope' ("shiny halos", "using omnipotent intelligence" etc.) a bit racist. As if jews (and only jews) are expected to behave in the holiest way possible, or else they lose all their merit. Or as some Jewish American told a famous Israeli writer once:
"We, Jews, ought to be the victims, not the victimizers".
Guess what, even Jews can't fight sterile wars, and even the Israeli army lies (just as any other army in the world does once in a while). And we can do all that and still be the good guys... (or at least deserve support when fighting Hammas)[/quote]

Unless facts make the position unsustainable, yeah I'm typically inclined to support Israel. But I can't for the life of me see where you got anything racist from my post. I am not placing unreasonable expectations upon Israel. I am not placing more demands upon them than I would any other civilized western democratic state. Hell, given their situation (the proverbial island of democracy surrounded by hostile theocratic authoritarians) I'm inclined to give the state more leeway than I do many others.

But I am disturbed by the level of automatic trust some of our resident Israeli's are placing in every proclamation that comes down from on high. I expect educated, intelligent people to be slightly more critical. When the strongest defense is 'Well, we're more credible than Hamas', you've got some problems. The portrayal of the Palestinians as little more than a cult of death seeking murderous savages by one poster and a failed species that would rather lob rockets than build sky-scrapers by another...didn't sit well with me either. Add in the less relevant bits like the 'real' reason Gazan settlements were destroyed before leaving and its hard to miss the unmistakable stench of willful self-delusion. People who buy this shit are not thinking rationally. Which can pay some dangerous dividends if their mentality represents a significant portion of the Israeli population.

I thought the one post of clarity between those two was a page or two earlier when Samalander broke down and said 'Fuck it, we were being attacked, this is our response, sometimes bad shit happens'...the omelet and eggs approach. It was a bit refreshing. Because at least it was honest, not laden with indefensible bullshit, and I'd be more inclined to support an argument from that perspective. But I do not appreciate disingenuous spin and I pity those who have already willfully believe the spin and think they're selling fact.

My statement is a response to the events on the ground, but probably more of a response to the other two posters who were selling horseshit as caviar and if they didn't know that's what they were doing, they should have.

[The Green Fish]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1644240' date='Jan 11 2009, 06.13']That statement from Israel does seem to be rather broad and seems to include the West Bank as well, which seems odd.[/quote]
Not that odd when you recall that the disengagement was carried out before Hamas won the elections, and when Abu Mazen was in a very weak position and not considered able to survive any agreement with Israel.
It seems that things changed quite a bit since then (mostly for the worse)

[Werthead]

[quote name='Wolf King' post='1644245' date='Jan 11 2009, 03.22']One can only hope, Commodore, that the act of killing unarmed women and children in the refugee camp known as Gaza restores the Israeli Defense Force's sense of masculinity, which was crushed last year, at the hands of Hezbolla, in Lebanon. Maybe when they feel like "real warriors" they will pick up their million dollar war toys, paid for by you and I, and return to Israel, to live behind 20 foot tall concrete walls whilst rockets sail over their heads and slam into their civilians' homes and kill them.[/quote]

Fixed.

The expectation that some people in this thread have that a country should sit back and let people who have sworn to destroy them kill their civilians without taking any defensive action whatsoever, on the basis that, "Well the rockets aren't very accurate and basically they're not that bad, they're basically big fluffy fireworks," is perplexing.

Israel's response is bloody, results in vast reams of civilian deaths and is totally disproportionate. But given the sole alternative is to sit back and let the enemy take pot shots at them and kill people (albeit not as many), I don't see what Israel's response could possibly be. Moreso than that, if any other country in the world was in the same position, they would retaliate in [i]exactly[/i] the same way (most would probably be far worse). And quite a few countries' response would be to flatten the entire territory several times over and fuck the civilian casualties.

Should Israel be let off the hook for every Palestinian civilian who dies? Of course not, just as America and Britain should not be let off the hook for every one of those hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians. But I note that no other type of credible action has been suggested in response.

[Usotsuki]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1644240' date='Jan 11 2009, 03.13']However, I don't see how Israel maintaining a presence in Gaza would have helped the peace process when it resumes, as you seem to be suggesting.[/quote]

I'm not suggesting that at all, I'm pointing out that the withdrawal from Gaza appears to have been:
a) a response to the cost the continued occupation imposed on Israel itself
b) a recognition of the clear failure of the attempt to include the Gaza strip in Greater Israel
c) an attempt to freeze the peace process entirely in the hope of allowing Israel to maintain and expand the far more desirable and viable settlements in the West Bank.

A rationale by the way that's entirely in keeping with the expressed intent of Ariel Sharon and the charter he supported envisaging a Palestine that can never achieve any status greater than that of an apartheid era bantustan.

[The Green Fish]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1644249' date='Jan 11 2009, 06.25']Obviously they don't name it that. But whichever official is talking about the rockets fire from and weapons stashes under every significant civilian kill site, that/they is who I'm referring to. This is as much a PR war as it is a shooting one and Israel is absolutely employing propaganda to support its own ends.



Unless facts make the position unsustainable, yeah I'm typically inclined to support Israel. But I can't for the life of me see where you got anything racist from my post. I am not placing unreasonable expectations upon Israel. I am not placing more demands upon them than I would any other civilized western democratic state. Hell, given their situation (the proverbial island of democracy surrounded by hostile theocratic authoritarians) I'm inclined to give the state more leeway than I do many others.

But I am disturbed by the level of automatic trust some of our resident Israeli's are placing in every proclamation that comes down from on high. I expect educated, intelligent people to be slightly more critical. When the strongest defense is 'Well, we're more credible than Hamas', you've got some problems. The portrayal of the Palestinians as little more than a cult of death seeking murderous savages by one poster and a failed species that would rather lob rockets than build sky-scrapers by another...didn't sit well with me either. Add in the less relevant bits like the 'real' reason Gazan settlements were destroyed before leaving and its hard to miss the unmistakable stench of willful self-delusion. People who buy this shit are not thinking rationally. Which can pay some dangerous dividends if their mentality represents a significant portion of the Israeli population.

I thought the one post of clarity between those two was a page or two earlier when Samalander broke down and said 'Fuck it, we were being attacked, this is our response, sometimes bad shit happens'...the omelet and eggs approach. It was a bit refreshing. Because at least it was honest, not laden with indefensible bullshit, and I'd be more inclined to support an argument from that perspective. But I do not appreciate disingenuous spin and I pity those who have already willfully believe the spin and think they're selling fact.

My statement is a response to the events on the ground, but probably more of a response to the other two posters who were selling horseshit as caviar and if they didn't know that's what they were doing, they should have.[/quote]

Well said.
But... I can see where they're coming from. Like you said, it's a PR war, and they consider themselves soldiers. And as soldiers they would say things that they don't even mean, just because you have to keep fighting.
And I can assure you that Israel is swarmed with racists, bigots, and all kinds of mere idiots (and I don't mean you, salamander. On a side note, I really admire you). Just like any other country, I guess. But we usually don't let them run the country... ;)

[Ser King]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1644261' date='Jan 10 2009, 23.34']Fixed.

The expectation that some people in this thread have that a country should sit back and let people who have sworn to destroy them kill their civilians without taking any defensive action whatsoever, on the basis that, "Well the rockets aren't very accurate and basically they're not that bad, they're basically big fluffy fireworks," is perplexing.

Israel's response is bloody, results in vast reams of civilian deaths and is totally disproportionate. But given the sole alternative is to sit back and let the enemy take pot shots at them and kill people (albeit not as many), I don't see what Israel's response could possibly be. Moreso than that, if any other country in the world was in the same position, they would retaliate in [i]exactly[/i] the same way (most would probably be far worse). And quite a few countries' response would be to flatten the entire territory several times over and fuck the civilian casualties.

Should Israel be let off the hook for every Palestinian civilian who dies? Of course not, just as America and Britain should not be let off the hook for every one of those hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians. But I note that no other type of credible action has been suggested in response.[/quote]


How many Palestinians is this Israeli slaughter alone radicalizing? If your mother was killed by an Israeli rocket when you were at age 5 and the Israelis left you to cling to her dead body for 4 days, try and imagine what impact that has on a kid's development. The Israelis must know this. They must know that when the chickens come home to roost, they're going to pay the price in casualties.

This is all the excuse the Israelis will need to build their apartheid wall even higher; two or three Muslim suicide bombers will get through after this, the Israelis will retaliate, stomp down even harder. Welcome to the "peace process," Israeli-style!!

Hell, Israel might have benefited Israel a lot more by sitting back than successfully recruiting thousands of new Hamas members.

[The Green Fish]

[quote name='Wolf King' post='1644274' date='Jan 11 2009, 06.48']How many Palestinians is this Israeli slaughter alone radicalizing? If your mother was killed by an Israeli rocket when you were at age 5 and the Israelis left you to cling to her dead body for 4 days, try and imagine what impact that has on a kid's development. The Israelis must know this. They must know that when the chickens come home to roost, they're going to pay the price in casualties.

This is all the excuse the Israelis will need to build their apartheid wall even higher; two or three Muslim suicide bombers will get through after this, the Israelis will retaliate, stomp down even harder. Welcome to the "peace process," Israeli-style!!

Hell, Israel might have benefited Israel a lot more by sitting back than successfully recruiting thousands of new Hamas members.[/quote]

I wouldn't worry about that. Whenever Hamas has a shortage of members, all it has to do is contact your university.

[Ser King]

[quote name='The Green Fish' post='1644275' date='Jan 10 2009, 23.51']I wouldn't worry about that. Whenever Hamas has a shortage of members, all it has to do is contact your university.[/quote]


Why would they bother wasting their minutes, the IDF is doing their work for them. Plus I highly doubt they would accept a catholic, and an American at that.

[Werthead]

[quote name='Wolf King' post='1644274' date='Jan 11 2009, 03.48']How many Palestinians is this Israeli slaughter alone radicalizing? If your mother was killed by an Israeli rocket when you were at age 5 and the Israelis left you to cling to her dead body for 4 days, try and imagine what impact that has on a kid's development. The Israelis must know this. They must know that when the chickens come home to roost, they're going to pay the price in casualties.

This is all the excuse the Israelis will need to build their apartheid wall even higher; two or three Muslim suicide bombers will get through after this, the Israelis will retaliate, stomp down even harder. Welcome to the "peace process," Israeli-style!!

Hell, Israel might have benefited Israel a lot more by sitting back than successfully recruiting thousands of new Hamas members.[/quote]

So your assertion is that a country under a sustained attack which kills fifty civilians should be fully expected to sit back and do nothing to defend itself?

Is that even a remotely realistic course of action for [i]any[/i] country on Earth to take?

[Inigima]

Wert, you've pretty much nailed my position. No one [i]likes[/i] the carnage. But there is no reasonable alternative for Israel that I can see and no one else has suggested one either.

It's all well and good to hypothesize that this will radicalize people further. But sitting back and doing nothing is unacceptable.

[The Green Fish]

[quote name='Piper' post='1644247' date='Jan 11 2009, 06.24']Samalander, others,

I understand, and agree, with your right to protect yourselves and your citizens.

After all אם אין אני לי, מי לי

But don't forget, the next part is וכשאני לעצמי, מה אני[/quote]

Ooh, but there's a third part: ואם לא עכשיו, אימתי.

I'm afraid this beautiful piece of ancient Jewish lore (told by Old Hilel around the first century) will be lost in translation, but it goes something like that:

If I'm not for me, who is for me?

And when I am for myself, what am I?

And if not now, when?

[Ser King]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1644294' date='Jan 11 2009, 00.16']So your assertion is that a country under a sustained attack which kills fifty civilians should be fully expected to sit back and do nothing to defend itself?[/quote]

You dont understand, Dude. This is a slaughter, like shooting fish in a barrel. Look at a map, Gaza is a fish bowl, with no escape, an open air prison. Israel is starving them and refusing humanitarian aid including antibiotics for children suffering from dysentery. What would you do if your children were being starved to death, Dude? Hamas sends a few bottle rockets into the desert and Israel drops 1000 pound blockbuster bombs into densely populated areas. You can bet they're getting hard, bombing children (haha its a joke, lighten up and laugh).

[quote name='Werthead' post='1644294' date='Jan 11 2009, 00.16']Is that even a remotely realistic course of action for [i]any[/i] country on Earth to take?[/quote]


Plenty. A reasonable country (in your case Israel) would look at every angle, and chose a reasonable course. Invading Gaza was not a reasonable course (for reasons already listed).