Israel in Gaza - General Thread II

[Pathetic]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1643601' date='Jan 10 2009, 12.39']It's War Crimes. War Crimes don't matter if your certain nations.[/quote]
Well yeah, Israel is winning so they can't possibly be war criminals. However, this particular thing wouldn't constitute a war crime anyway. At least, no more than their use of other types of munitions for the same purposes in Gaza.

[quote name='Wolf King' post='1643794' date='Jan 10 2009, 20.01']Showing this on the media , they do not expect people to notice what they are and most likely mixed with fine powder aluminum which once reaches 2,000 degrees , powderizes into ash and reignites up to 5,000 degrees.[/quote]
Still any sources for the IDF using WP as a weapon, i.e. something other than creating smoke screens?

Or any sources for their using other weaponized incendiary mixtures like thermate, ferrocene derivatives, etc.? Or have you just seen videos of thermite (or other aluminum mixtures) on Youtube and thought it looked evil enough that the Israelis must be using it?

Aluminum doesn't have any magical burning properties either. It does release a lot of heat, but there's no need to use fancy descriptions like "powderizes into ash and reignites". It ignites and burns, and like just about any flammable solid it burns better as a powder.

[quote]In such phosphorus bombs , the phosphorus can embed itself into the flesh and not burn as not exposed to oxygen. Then those who have this in them are walking bombs. Some little kid has it and scratches it, or a doctor attending the wound would get killed as only a small pellet of it is enough. It can only be removed with the area of the body submerged in water and a protective wall around them.[/quote]
Heh. Right. And the toxic smokes kills everything within 200 yards...

Small amounts of phosphorus might be left unburnt in certain situations, though it's less likely when the munition is detonated at high altitude as we see on the various videos from Gaza. These can reignite. Unless you dive face first into such a left-over patch, it won't kill you, though slight injuries are quite possible. WP doesn't explode.

WP burns should be irrigated, but treatment certainly doesn't need to be done underwater. Soaked pads are enough. What would you need a protective wall for?

[BTW, I believe these count as the sort of "ridiculously wild claims made about WP" that I mentioned earlier...]

All that said, burns hurt, and incendiary weapons are scary as hell. I felt a bit queasy about US WP use in Fallujah, and if it turns out IDF uses it as a weapon in Gaza I will be disappointed. It can't possibly be so effective compared to other weapon systems as to be worth the bad PR. But overall it's small fries compared to the other stuff going on, like all the good old-fashioned artillery and air strikes of civilian targets falsely identified as military ones that always happen in conflicts like these.

[Maltaran]

[quote name='G'Kar' post='1644007' date='Jan 10 2009, 22.12']Wow. So you honestly believe Israel is only marginally better than Hamas? Hamas? If you had said the PA, I would still disagree with you, but fucking Hamas? Really?[/quote]

I see my use of understatement to make a point has been misread. I agree there's quite a difference between Israel and Hamas, but still, just because Hamas are the "bad guys" doesn't make Israel the "good guys" - this is a definite case of [url="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlackAndGrayMorality"]Black and Gray Morality[/url]

[Zoë Sumra]

[quote name='Pathetic' post='1644011' date='Jan 10 2009, 22.15']Well yeah, Israel is winning so they can't possibly be war criminals. However, this particular thing wouldn't constitute a war crime anyway. At least, no more than their use of other types of munitions for the same purposes in Gaza.[/quote]
No need to invoke phosphorous for the war crimes charge. [url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4209242/Israeli-strike-on-civilian-house-may-be-war-crime-says-UN-gaza.html"]The IDF deliberately shelling a house into which it had previously instructed women and children to go was the war crime[/url], according to the UN.

But, of course, nothing will be done, because it's Israel, in the same way that British and US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan would be unlikely to face war crimes prosecutions.

It's clear we need a supranational force of magic ninjas in order to drag the Israeli commanders and ground troops concerned to a neutral war crimes tribunal. Get hold of the Hamas people responsible for killing Israelis too, and the Israelis responsible for blockading Gaza during the "ceasefire", and maybe throw in a few members of Islamic Jihad for good measure.

Seriously - this will not stop, in my eyes, [i]because [/i]everyone concerned knows they can get away with killing the other side. The previous thread was initially focused on brainstorming for peace solutions. The only reasonable solution would seem to be a strong force of UN peacekeepers covering the entire Gaza Strip and Israeli border with the ability to arrest anyone they saw killing anyone else, Israeli or Palestinian, and the authority to stop the Gazan blockade. I'm not under any illusions that that will happen.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1643874' date='Jan 10 2009, 13.42']1) I did say "one of the reasons". Not the only reason. And the gulf countries were willing to shell out ridiculous amounts of their hard earned oil money to aid the Palestinians in building and rebuilding. But that would mean they have to abandon their whole "refugee victim" status which their leadership cynicaly uses. They have been ruling themselves for some time now. Who's stopping them redirecting their efforts from huring us to building something good for themselves (one of the reasons they hate Israel so, is because we have managed to build a modern advanced country here).[/quote]

As Mormont notes, the 'giving them room to build something better' explanation is still complete and utter horseshit. One would have to be willfully delusional to believe it. Or just plain dishonest to say it if they didn't. Either way it raises credibility issues to the issuers of such BS. I don't supposed Israel asked if they'd like the settlements maintained or destroyed before they pulled out? That just might have been a better indicator of the desires and intentions of the Gazans.

Running oneself presupposes control of your own borders, the ability to deal and trade with who you want to, free movement in and out, and not facing the constant specter of a neighbor blowing shit up every time the soup boils over. Gaza does not have the powers of an independent state so lets quit this 'They should pull themselves up from their own bootstraps' horseshit. Sure they could do better than they currently are but lets dispel this fiction that its all on them and that being an occasionally battered, frequently embargoed, and periodically occupied territory has nothing to do with it.

[quote]2) "tiny parcel of grossly overpopulated land" - Like Singapore?[/quote]

It took Singapore decades to get to where they are, they control their own borders, have not been the victims of attack in recent memory, and quite frankly they're one of the few exceptions rather than the rule. Most of your small islands are pretty damned impoverished.

[quote]3)
a. Stereotypes come from somewhere. They do not appear out of thin air. Also, this is not the first time some boarder has insulted my intelligence, but I have eyes that see, and I live here.[/quote]

And perhaps that's your problem. You're too close to the situation, too vested and thus you lack perspective.

[quote]b. If I have to choose between the reports of my own goverment (democraticaly elected and supervised) and the reports from the enemy, I know which ones I trust.[/quote]

If you trust any of them unquestioningly and uncritically, you're an idiot. This isn't an either or proposition. This is ferreting out bullshit no matter whose shoveling it. And asserting that the Israeli government is more trustworthy than the Hamas news service might win you a couple of tallest-midget competitions, but it doesn't really mean a whole hell of alot. Right now your government is desperate to win the propaganda war after failing the last time around, has acted and continues to act to restrict independent press from accessing the region, and is operating in a warzone where chaos reigns and its impossible to ferret out truth from accusation; they can lie and there's not real way to definitively call them on it.

Yes they operate under different rules than an entity like Hamas or Hezbollah. They're required to give a shit about civilians or at least pretend to. But that's even more reason to lie when they fuckup or get careless. They've got a short leash of international (US mainly) patience to work with and blowing up schools without justification will cut it short pretty damned quickly. So there always happens to be a weapons stash, or militants firing from there every time a bomb drops in the right or even I suspect the wrong place. They're banking on the fact that because they're the stable, respectable western liberal democracy in the region, we'll believe it. They've apparently got their own citizens on board. But isn't it more than a bit suspect when there's a stash or aggressor in every location where a kid dies, or that the group asking you to believe their press reports actively seeks to restrict independent press?

[quote]b. If I have to choose between the reports of my own goverment (democraticaly elected and supervised) and the reports from the enemy, I know which ones I trust.[/quote]

You don't. As another poster said, a false dichotomy. And in the event that is all you have to choose from, the Israeli government is to blame. Because as I said earlier, they are the ones restricting independent press in the region.

[quote]4) We are the good guys. Are you totally mad? You do know the World Jihad is coming for you too? Sure, you're way down on the target list, but if Islamic fundies have their way, the whole world will be run their way. Kiss your precious Democracy and Human Rights goodbye. I don't know a single Israeli pilot who would bomb a mosque if there were no munitions inside.[/quote]

You can write that with a straight face? Yeah there are nutjob fundies. Islam has a bunch of them. They pose no serious threat of 'having their way' throughout most of the world. A dozen 9-11's ain't gonna destroy democracy, result in global Sharia law, or eliminate human rights as we know them. Global communism back in the day had more teeth. Nor do Palestinians in particular pose any threat whatsoever to the United States. Not directly anyway. The anger generated from their plight however creates many converts to your so-called 'World Jihad'. Your situation creates a whole hell of alot of fucking headaches for us and much of the rest of the world.

Palestinians want land and a state, yeah they'd like that state where you currently reside, preferably without you there, but given their pathetic bargaining position, enough of them would be amenable to a '67 minus Jerusalem solution. With or without that state, I don't see many of them jumping on to a global jihad. They are not a threat to the outside world.

And I somehow doubt the Israeli pilot personally investigates the site on foot either before or after he drops the bomb. They have no idea what is or isn't in there. And quite frankly, neither do you. All you have is your government's say so on the matter, and they have substantial reasons not to be forthright.

[quote]Also, the great big balls of fire : Not from our bombs. That's all the ammunition going up. The fact you can't wrap your head around people storing rockets in religious institutions and homes doesn't make it not so.[/quote]

What can't I wrap my head around? I have no doubt that Hamas is capable of doing such things and that they have and continue to do such things. I simply call bullshit on the Israeli government trotting that excuse out everytime large numbers of civilians die at a church/school/hospital style target. They lack credibility. Hamas having less credibility doesn't mean they have enough to take everything they say at face value.

[quote]Seriously : You have a democracy on the one hand, and a zealous theocracy on the other and still you can't make up your mind whose side you are on!?[/quote]

Honestly, what the hell does that have to do with anything? Democracy does not preclude oppression. It is no guarantee of honest government. It does not eliminate militarism or make atrocity and injustice impossible. Yes it is typically desirable and all things being equal, i'd probably trust the Democracy over the theocracy. But all things aren't equal. Democracy hasn't stopped many Israel's from thinking a couple thousand year old land grant from God is suitable justification for uprooting the current occupants and taking their 'promised land'. It has not stopped the aggressive, belligerent policy of displacement and settlement in the West Bank. It has not caused a reevaluation of the policy of hitting mosquito bites with a sledghammer...dozens of times. It has not solved the decades long practice of de facto occupation and oppression of those territories.

Yeah you guys got reasons for some of that shit, but the point is Democracy does not automatically make you credible. That you might be more credible than Hamas or Fatah really means jack shit.

[quote]5) We learnt our lesson from the war of 2006, when the enemy got Operational Intel straight from national television. Maybe we went a little too far in the other direction, but I'm sure we'll be able to remedy that until the next war.[/quote]

Jesus...its like discussing Vietnam all over again. Operational Intel wasn't the problem you guys had with the press. I'm amazed otherwise intelligent people might swallow a line like that. It was too many pictures of the dead, maimed, and suffering. Bodybags have a negative effect on morale and internal/external support. You guys lost the PR war. And now you're intent on not letting that happen again, which means independent press that might actually have the credibility to confirm or deny the claims of Israel need not apply.

[quote]6) So... we should just never fight our enemies if they hide in urban areas?[/quote]

What the fuck does this have to do with anything I just said? I say a few fliers don't wash your hands of the matter and you come back with this shit? You're not arguing with a fucking illiterate two year old. Spare me this strawman horseshit. If you have an A game, fucking bring it or don't waste my time.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Etrangere' post='1643933' date='Jan 10 2009, 14.40']That's a bit insulting to all the Israeli posters which are not Lyreiania and Samalander. Can't you call those two on the bullshit they spout without generalising to all Israeli posters, many of which don't actually post much in this thread?[/quote]

Fair enough. I apologize. I've had no problem with your posts.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Eloisa' post='1644023' date='Jan 10 2009, 16.30']No need to invoke phosphorous for the war crimes charge. [url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4209242/Israeli-strike-on-civilian-house-may-be-war-crime-says-UN-gaza.html"]The IDF deliberately shelling a house into which it had previously instructed women and children to go was the war crime[/url], according to the UN.[/quote]

In all fairness, is there any evidence to suggest that was deliberate? Even I have enough faith in the Israeli government not to purposely box up women and children for the explicit purpose of slaughter. Mistake or carelessness I can buy. But sending them there for the sole purpose of killing them? No.

[The Khaleesi]

This is an interesting article, because it's written by Avi Shlaim, who served in the Israeli Army and is now Oxford professor of International Relations:

[url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine"]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/0...srael-palestine[/url]

[March]

[quote name='Ashaman' post='1643745' date='Jan 10 2009, 11.43']in particulare i wonder if such demonstratiln have taken place in sweden and denmark whitch also have a large population of refuges from the middle east, just like our capital oslo have.[/quote]

I read somewhere that there was one in Stockholm that brought out about 5,000, but I haven't heard anything about Denmark. They've been going on for a while in the U.S. now, and I've been to several. I'm always left with the feeling that I've affected no one but myself.

[Malatesta]

[quote]A rogue state habitually violates international law, possesses weapons of mass destruction and practises terrorism - the use of violence against civilians for political purposes. Israel fulfils all of these three criteria; the cap fits and it must wear it.[/quote]

Probably sums up the feelings of the majority of the world outside of you-know-who ultra nationalists.

[kiko]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1643874' date='Jan 10 2009, 20.42']a. Stereotypes come from somewhere. They do not appear out of thin air.[/quote]

i must say that i'm quite schocked to read that from a jewish person. especially as a justification for actions against the stereotyped group.

[salinea]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1644056' date='Jan 11 2009, 00.16']Fair enough. I apologize. I've had no problem with your posts.[/quote]

I'm not Israeli ^_^ (<- French). I was thinking of lumer and, welll, whoever else is Israeli on the board.

[Ashaman]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1643914' date='Jan 10 2009, 21.10']I also found this interesting blog on the IDF and the situation in Gaza right now: [url="http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2009/01/the-idf-ground.html#more"]http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_...round.html#more[/url]

The basic thrust is that since the Israeli Ground Forces are heavily reliant on reserve forces, they are much less disciplined then they should be, which is causing lots of the problems we see on the ground:[/quote]

nice link, just wanted to post something from this that might be relevant to how some palastinians might justify the rocket attacks.

[quote]I wonder what your opinion is on the national nature of the force?

Many Palestinians make the case that since the vast majority of Israeli men are required to be in the military forces at some level this then makes them legitimate targets, in or out of uniform.

If you can reasonably assume that any possible target will have Israeli men, and hence certainly either full time or reservist military members, then it isnt far to convince yourself that any target with Israel men present is legit.

Given this, it also makes moot the idea pressed by the Israeli government that Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups "hide in their societies" because Israeli society is militarised from top to bottom.

More to the point, it is far more likely that the average Palestinian man will be a civilian with no attatchment to any military forces than Israeli males who must all serve.

I heard this very argument made to me in the West Bank a few years back.[/quote]

when you consider that even women are enrolled inn to israel's army, if you can convince one self that such a argument are just, nearly every israeli becomes a legtimate target. only eception would be children.
:dunno: was just trying to look inside the mind of a famished,outbombed, scared for life, both in the body and mind, maybe brainwased young male hamas suporter/fighter. and see how they easily can make them self belive what they are doing are legitime.

[Commodore]

Alan Dershowitz says Hamas is commiting [url="http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-dershowitz10-2009jan10,0,4232460.story?track=rss"]war crimes[/url]

[quote]Consider a related situation: An armed bank robber kills several tellers and takes a customer hostage. Hiding behind his human shield, the robber continues to kill civilians. A police officer, trying to prevent further killings, shoots at the robber but accidentally kills the hostage. Who is guilty of murder? Not the police officer who fired the fatal shot but the bank robber who fired from behind the human shield.

The international law of war, likewise, makes it a war crime to use human shields in the way Hamas does. It also makes it a war crime for Hamas to target Israeli civilians with anti-personnel rockets loaded with ball bearings and shrapnel designed to kill as many civilians as possible.[/quote]

Why anyone would want to defend people that fire rockets from schools and hospitals and temples to ensure their own civilians get killed is beyond me, since it's indefensible.

[The Marquis de Leech]

[quote name='Commodore' post='1644149' date='Jan 11 2009, 14.27']Why anyone would want to defend people that fire rockets from schools and hospitals and temples to ensure their own civilians get killed is beyond me, since it's indefensible.[/quote]

Wake me up when someone in the thread actually defends Hamas.

[Ashaman]

[quote name='Commodore' post='1644149' date='Jan 11 2009, 02.27']Alan Dershowitz says Hamas is commiting [url="http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-dershowitz10-2009jan10,0,4232460.story?track=rss"]war crimes[/url]



Why anyone would want to defend people that fire rockets from schools and hospitals and temples to ensure their own civilians get killed is beyond me, since it's indefensible.[/quote]

whell the situation are rather fucked up before such things happened. try to think about how fucked up the situation must be for them to begin doing such thing, i dunno four decade of occupation and no end in sight might answer for some of the reason.
dont you think they would have fought diffrently if they hawe had other means to do so, the fact that they are resorting to such tactis tells me that thay are rather desperate and are running out of "safe" places for them to fight. ofcours if they would just drop dead and seace fighting that would have solved this rather quickly, but when that means death to most of them i am not shocked they continue to fight. if you runn a wild animal inn to a corner whit no other way to escape it WILL fight.

[Werthead]

[quote name='Bruce Galactus' post='1643383' date='Jan 10 2009, 01.42']The definition usually used for "Concentration Camp" btw. is somethinga long the lines of "A camp designed to, in times of war or conflict, confine a certain segment of a civilian population." Concentration camps are rarely particularly nice, but the spectrum is huge. Most countries in involved in modern wars has made use of them. (they're a relatively recent invention, 19th century, mainly because that kind of mass-scale confinement simply wasn't possible before that)[/quote]

The term 'concentration camp' cannot really be used now without raising the spectre of the Holocaust. If someone says the phrase, I'm not thinking of British internment camps for the Boers, I'm thinking of Auschwitz.

[quote name='Shryke' post='1643386' date='Jan 10 2009, 01.44']It's not like Israel has shown any interest in taking those steps either.[/quote]

Correct. Apart from pulling its military forces out of the Gaza Strip and dismantling its settlements in the face of enormous opposition by its own people, extending cooperation to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank (see the earlier post about the new Palestinian police force being assembled to restrain the extremists with Israeli support) and their history of talking to Palestinian terror organisations as soon as they stop vowing to destroy them. You know, those little things.

[quote name='Samalander' post='1643912' date='Jan 10 2009, 20.07']Even Obama says the US has to step up it's operations in Afghanistan. Why don't we hear about the innocent Afghans getting killed?[/quote]

For the last few years the Taliban generally have not been fighting in urban areas, but in areas of countryside. Recent Taliban tactics seem to favour them mounting direct assaults on British firebases in Helmand where they can be mown down with no danger to civilians.

That said, civilian deaths in Afghanistan do occur when the military needs to go into towns to smoke out Taliban forces, and inaccurate bombings with numerous deaths have taken place (I remember the US accidentally bombing an Afghan wedding celebration a few years back with a lot of deaths). But, generally, the conflict there is of a different nature taking place across a vast area of lightly-populated wilderness, where the potential for such mistakes is not as high.

[Ashaman]

coppy paste from a other place on the interwebz:

[quote][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy-60zSKiGE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy-60zSKiGE[/url]

Today [January 07, 2009] Dennis Kucinich made a 1 minute address to Congress stating that the bombing of Gaza by Israel using weapons paid for by US taxpayers is in direct violation of the Arms Export Control Act. The weapons were specifically not to be used for escalation or aggression.[/quote]

[Malatesta]

[quote name='Commodore' post='1644149' date='Jan 11 2009, 09.27']Alan Dershowitz says[/quote]

If you open with this you should probably just say nothing.

[Werthead]

[quote]Today [January 07, 2009] Dennis Kucinich made a 1 minute address to Congress stating that the bombing of Gaza by Israel using weapons paid for by US taxpayers is in direct violation of the Arms Export Control Act. [b]The weapons were specifically not to be used for escalation or aggression. [/b][/quote]

What were they supposed to be used for?

"Wow, these bombs and laser-guidance systems are really cool. Can't wait to use them."
"Oh, you can't use them."
"What? Why did you sell them to us?"
"So you could put them on the mantlepiece and feel good about owning them. Using them? What a notion! Plus they'll be worth more if you keep them in the original packaging, don't discount the collectors' market in 40 years time."

[Usotsuki]

.[quote name='Werthead' post='1644189' date='Jan 11 2009, 02.16']Apart from pulling its military forces out of the Gaza Strip and dismantling its settlements in the face of enormous opposition by its own people, extending cooperation to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank (see the earlier post about the new Palestinian police force being assembled to restrain the extremists with Israeli support) and their history of talking to Palestinian terror organisations as soon as they stop vowing to destroy them. You know, those little things.[/quote]

That's an extremely eccentric reading of the Kadima rationale for withdrawal from Gaza.

"[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3720176.stm"]When[/url] you freeze [the peace] process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the [Palestinian] refugees, the borders and Jerusalem.

"Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda.

"And all this with authority and permission. All with a [US] presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress."