Israel in Gaza - General Thread II

[Shryke]

Except Hezbollah walked away more popular and Israel walked away with damaged credibility.

If you wanna call the Lebanon conflict a political stunt, then it's one Hezbollah won handily. Politically and PR wise, Hezbollah kicked the shit out of the IDF.

As a note, the current blanket ban on media with respect to Gaza is Israel's attempt to win the PR war this time.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Israel moves a bunch of children into a house and then shells the place repeatedly:

[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7819492.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7819492.stm[/url]

Charming.

[snake]

[quote name='Lyreiania' post='1643035' date='Jan 9 2009, 15.56']Hello all.
Lyana, EHK: I maintain that if you seek to assign blame, the lions share should be to the Palestineans. Does Israel kill civilians? YES, not intentionally. Do Palestineans kill civilians? YES, intentionally...and that is a HUGE difference.

It is the difference between murder and accidental homicide. The INTENT here is different, and THAT is why Israel gets little to no blame, and Palestineans get virtually ALL of it.

Lyana you seem upset that I dont have sympathy for the dying. Why should I, when they seem to rush towards their death with open arms, embracing the idea of jihad? It would be like pitying a child for getting a toy he so very much desired.

Dont believe me? OK. Watch these YouTube links. See Palestinean children joyously singing about the joys of being a little suicide bomber. So, NO, I have NO sympathy when they get exactly what they want. I have outrage. I have anger that a people would abuse and misuse their own children so.

Here is a Palestinian "mother" sending her son off to kill: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytX-DI_jwwI&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytX-DI_jwwI...feature=related[/url]

Here is a Palestinean "wife" who recieved the news of her husbands suicide death terrorist attack with "cries of joy" [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTNADjMc0x0&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTNADjMc0x0...feature=related[/url]

Here is a cute little Palestinean girl. See her interview, and see her hate: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjbJnZUJTYU&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjbJnZUJTYU...feature=related[/url]

Here are two YouTube links of children and childrens TV, Palestinean style:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAHHjfUxERY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAHHjfUxERY[/url] and
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hBuiSP8X6E"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hBuiSP8X6E[/url]

Lyana, and my analogy of airport security stands. Palestineans have to be screened prior to leaving the Gaza or other areas they haunt BECAUSE they wish to blow things up. Because they are a culture of death, destruction. Israel MUST for her safety maintain such restrictions in the face of a people who are genocidally committed to Israel and Jewish destruction.

It is a Jewish saying that he who saves a life, it is as if he saved the world. The Palestinean corollary appears to be he who KILLS a life, gains the world.

Iceman, you believe Israel hasnt done enough to keep civilians out of harms way. Israel warns them, by leafletting. Israel warns them exactly what consequences acts will have. They are going in on a ground attack instead of pummeling from the air to avoid civilian casualities. What more do you wish, an engraved invitation to each Palestinean?

Rockroi: these words of yours "So, please take this with a grain of salt: I hope when your grandchildren are running around you, you can say to them the time you were scared by the shelling that happened in the early days of 2009; that it was one of the last times anything like that happened, and thankfully, in your old age, you will say to your children's children that the people of Israeli and Palestinians don't do that anymore. No. It was a long time ago; we finally all got passed all that. " were beautiful, eloquent, and I as well wish such a time would come to pass. But so long as the Palestineans insist on their hate, it will never happen.

Sincerely,
Lyreiania[/quote]

While I read what Annelise wrote I still think this post is utterly revolting. This is the kind of person that I have no sympathy for.

[Ser King]

Nothing is going to get better, it cannot. The Palestinians want their land back, simple as that. This will continue in the future, no doubt in my mind. Israel is not going to vacate their country, they have America behind them and also their own nukes. Also, one does have to be a genius, to realize that Hamas will acquire better rockets, armaments, etc. in the future. Things will get worse in the future, I would bet on it!

[The Marquis de Leech]

[quote name='Wolf King' post='1643474' date='Jan 10 2009, 17.31']Things will get worse in the future, I would bet on it![/quote]

What is going to happen is that Israel will eventually hit a demographic dilemma: since Palestinian birthrates outpace Israeli ones, Israel will have to either pull back or, if it wants to cling onto these territorities, it will have to drop democracy and engage in old-school apartheid.

[Ser King]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1642760' date='Jan 9 2009, 13.49']I'm no expert, but some things along the lines of :
a. No more smuggling of[b] rockets [/b]into Gaza.
b. No more Iranian "consultants" inside Gaza.
c. No more shooting rockets into Israel.
Etc.[/quote]


Using the word "rocket" in reference to qassams is a bit misleading. Very few people have ever actually been injured or killed by a qassam rocket, almost all it ever does is smash a few windows or ignite a settler's home on fire. The qassam are symbolic for the Palestinian Arabs, much like how rocks are a symbol of their intifada against Israel. It shows that these Arabs are not willing to just roll over and give up in the face of oppression and that even the smallest of children are willing to fight these colonists.

The firing of the rockets is just an excuse for Israel to target Hamas, but all they will do is strengthen the position of Hamas. They can kill every single of leader of Hamas but Israel will still lose the war of ideology and demographics.

[Rockroi]

[quote]Rockroi: these words of yours "So, please take this with a grain of salt: I hope when your grandchildren are running around you, you can say to them the time you were scared by the shelling that happened in the early days of 2009; that it was one of the last times anything like that happened, and thankfully, in your old age, you will say to your children's children that the people of Israeli and Palestinians don't do that anymore.No. It was a long time ago; we finally all got passed all that. " were beautiful, eloquent, and I as well wish such a time would come to pass. But so long as the Palestineans insist on their hate, it will never happen.[/quote]

I know. I know. I am sorry.


[quote]Ummm...yeah. The supposed most powerful military in the world pound for pound, couldnt beat a bunch of guys with RPG's hiding in bunkers… My point about their success is that they didnt get wiped out.[/quote]

There is no doubt that IDF underestimated its enemy. That happens. However, there would never have been the opportunity to truly destroy Hezbollah at that time. The ISD still managed to kill anywhere between 2 and 10 Hezbollah militants for every one of its men it lost. Therefore, if this was a Hezbollah success, they simply could NEVER sustain another “success” such as this. They would be wiped out. Therefore, as anguy stated, the IDF did accomplish something- getting the angry enemy to the north to stay quiet. Especially now as the angry enemy to the South is acting up. And getting wiped out. Hence, Israel did accomplish something- it ensured no possibility of a two-front war. Now, was THAT the ultimate goal of the war? No. But the ultimate goal of the IDF is to ensure the ongoing safety of Israel in the face of ongoing and historic hostility by its neighbors and other forces. It should have been done better; the IDF did not hit its goals. But its hardly the embarrassing defeat that Hezbollah needed it to be. It’s the equivalent of having a HS team play a pro team and only losing by double digits as opposed to triple digits.

[quote]The point that has been made often, in this thread and elsewhere, is that assigning blame is not going to solve anything in a situation as fucked up as this.[/quote]

This is a big point of the Palestinian apologists. Obviously, the Arab world shares far more blame for its ongoing attempts to destroy Israel, and as such the extraordinary level of hostility that has come out of the failures of the Arab world and the leadership of the Palestinian movements, to say nothing of the terrorist organizations that have sprouted up in the wake of their ongoing and continual failures- from their misguided wars to their terrorist ties to their alliances with third parties. So, yes- lets NOT discuss who’s fault this all is.

[quote]Strangely, bombing the shit out of people isn't making peace happen.[/quote]

No. Bombing the shit out of people will not bring peace. As soon as Hamas and Hezbollah stop, it will be a step in the right direction.

[quote]If you wanna call the Lebanon conflict a political stunt, then it's one Hezbollah won handily. Politically and PR wise, Hezbollah kicked the shit out of the IDF.[/quote]

But as a strategic goal, Israel achieved far more than Hezbollah and the proof is in the pudding. When rocket attacks started up again in the North, the “victorious” Hezbollah could not deny it fast enough- knowing full well that a mobile IDF would eradicate it. Again, the IDF made mistakes- Western, democratic armies always do. But those mistakes were not the end all, be all of the conflict.
[quote]Using the word "rocket" in reference to qassams is a bit misleading. Very few people have ever actually been injured or killed by a qassam rocket, almost all it ever does is smash a few windows or ignite a settler's home on fire. The qassam are symbolic for the Palestinian Arabs, much like how rocks are a symbol of their intifada against Israel.[/quote]

Oh, that's all it does!! It only ignites fires. "Few" are ever injured or kill. Just a "few" murders. That's all. For a minute there I thought those people may be in harm's way. Turns out its just a symbolic device. Join me next week when I describe how the Japanese military should not be blamed for kamikaze attacks in WWII because their planes were just "symbolic."

[The Marquis de Leech]

[quote name='Rockroi' post='1643494' date='Jan 10 2009, 18.02']Oh, that's all it does!! It only ignites fires. "Few" are ever injured or kill. Just a "few" murders. That's all. For a minute there I thought those people may be in harm's way. Turns out its just a symbolic device. Join me next week when I describe how the Japanese military should not be blamed for kamikaze attacks in WWII because their planes were just "symbolic."[/quote]

Well, if we're talking vicious weaponry, there's always the dear old [url="http://webpages.charter.net/dmarin/cbwbeta/images/wp_burn_face.gif"]white phosphorus[/url], which pretty much eats people alive, and which Israel is [url="http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23611375-details/Israel+uses+phosphorus+shells+as+smokescreen+for+troops/article.do"]using[/url] during this little military expedition.

White phosphorus, by the way, was described by US media as a [url="http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=16685998&BRD=1817&PAG=461&dept_id=222071&rfi=6"]horror weapon[/url] when it was used in Iraq against the US troops. Funny that I don't see it getting called a horror weapon when the victims are Palestinians.

[Shryke]

"Palestinian apologists"???

Well, at least you made it clear from early on how seriously we should take you. :lol:

[shadowbinding shoe]

[quote name='Roose Bolton's Pet Leech' post='1643505' date='Jan 10 2009, 07.24']Well, if we're talking vicious weaponry, there's always the dear old [url="http://webpages.charter.net/dmarin/cbwbeta/images/wp_burn_face.gif"]white phosphorus[/url], which pretty much eats people alive, and which Israel is [url="http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23611375-details/Israel+uses+phosphorus+shells+as+smokescreen+for+troops/article.do"]using[/url] during this little military expedition.

White phosphorus, by the way, was described by US media as a [url="http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=16685998&BRD=1817&PAG=461&dept_id=222071&rfi=6"]horror weapon[/url] when it was used in Iraq against the US troops. Funny that I don't see it getting called a horror weapon when the victims are Palestinians.[/quote]

I don't know what Americans and British did in Iraq. But do you have any evidence that Israel used it as a weapon? This: "Phosphorous shells can also illuminate large areas when used at night." is not harmful to people as far as I know. Using it while Israeli soldiers are in the area as well makes this claim ridiculous. Al Jazeera continually broadcasts pictures of the injured. Did it broadcast any pictures of these kinds of injuries? No? Then this is a total bogus article.

[Shryke]

[quote name='shadowbinding shoe' post='1643557' date='Jan 10 2009, 02.51']I don't know what Americans and British did in Iraq. But do you have any evidence that Israel used it as a weapon? This: "Phosphorous shells can also illuminate large areas when used at night." is not harmful to people as far as I know. Using it while Israeli soldiers are in the area as well makes this claim ridiculous. Al Jazeera continually broadcasts pictures of the injured. Did it broadcast any pictures of these kinds of injuries? No? Then this is a total bogus article.[/quote]

Um .... AFAIK using white phosphorus in any populous area is considered a HUGE nono.

Also, Al Jazeera isn't gonna be broadcasting much, apparently the IDF has attacked the rooftop of a media building housing 20 news organizations, and destroyed their communication equipment.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Rockroi']This is a big point of the Palestinian apologists. Obviously, the Arab world shares far more blame for its ongoing attempts to destroy Israel, and as such the extraordinary level of hostility that has come out of the failures of the Arab world and the leadership of the Palestinian movements, to say nothing of the terrorist organizations that have sprouted up in the wake of their ongoing and continual failures- from their misguided wars to their terrorist ties to their alliances with third parties. So, yes- lets NOT discuss who’s fault this all is.[/quote]

Yes, let's not. Because most of the people suffering the consequences of past mistakes on "their side" were not even alive when said mistakes were made, and even their ancestors were probably not in a position to influence the Arab states to attack Israel. I am not saying this as an "apologist" (I wish I didn't have to launch into a lengthy condemnation of murder and terrorism before you believe that I am not a supporter of such tactics, as that should be the default assumption for everyone unless they openly embrace such despicable acts) but because I don't see how tallying up wrongs commited by both sides is going to help end this tragedy, which at this point is all any decent human being should be concerned about IMO.

[Lord of Oop North]

[quote name='Lyanna Stark' post='1642596' date='Jan 9 2009, 10.11']Completely useless cockwaving and posturing from both sides with an awful cost in human lives, in my opinion. I'd be ever so happy if peace could be reached between Israel and the Palestine people, but it seems like not enough people are really interested in this.[/quote]
"Atrocity is recognized as such by victim and predator alike, by all who learn about it at whatever remove. Atrocity has no excuses, no mitigating argument. Atrocity never balances or rectifies the past. Atrocity merely arms the future for more atrocity. It is self-perpetuating upon itself — a barbarous form of incest. Whoever commits atrocity also commits those future atrocities thus bred."

[Pathetic]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1643560' date='Jan 10 2009, 09.56']Um .... AFAIK using white phosphorus in any populous area is considered a HUGE nono.[/quote]
Using it as a weapon in civilian areas is banned by Protocol III of the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Certain_Conventional_Weapons"]Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons[/url], but Israel, like the US, have not signed that protocol.

Using it to produce smoke in civilian areas isn't banned, nor is using it as a weapon outside civilian areas. For this to be a serious issue, there'd have to be proof it was used as a weapon -- that it was used in civilian areas can be taken for granted.

But then there [i]was[/i] some proof that it was used as a weapon by the US in the second battle of Fallujah, and that didn't lead to more than some hand-wringing and ridiculously wild claims made about WP in some medias.

[Maltaran]

[quote name='Tsoert' post='1643369' date='Jan 10 2009, 01.19']I'm glad they didn't. The IRA were a wonderful help to stimulate regeneration of Manchester's old shitty town centre.[/quote]

While this is true, I seem to recall a couple of politicians getting into a bit of trouble for actually coming out and saying that.

However, this was one of the more civilised IRA bombings, in that they gave a warning in advance and no-one got killed.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Pathetic' post='1643596' date='Jan 10 2009, 04.53']Using it as a weapon in civilian areas is banned by Protocol III of the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Certain_Conventional_Weapons"]Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons[/url], but Israel, like the US, have not signed that protocol.

Using it to produce smoke in civilian areas isn't banned, nor is using it as a weapon outside civilian areas. For this to be a serious issue, there'd have to be proof it was used as a weapon -- that it was used in civilian areas can be taken for granted.

But then there [i]was[/i] some proof that it was used as a weapon by the US in the second battle of Fallujah, and that didn't lead to more than some hand-wringing and ridiculously wild claims made about WP in some medias.[/quote]

It's War Crimes. War Crimes don't matter if your certain nations.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Wolf King' post='1643488' date='Jan 10 2009, 06.53']Using the word "rocket" in reference to qassams is a bit misleading. Very few people have ever actually been injured or killed by a qassam rocket, almost all it ever does is smash a few windows or ignite a settler's home on fire. The qassam are symbolic for the Palestinian Arabs, much like how rocks are a symbol of their intifada against Israel. It shows that these Arabs are not willing to just roll over and give up in the face of oppression and that even the smallest of children are willing to fight these colonists.[/quote]
Qassams can be pretty much manufactured in Gaza and do not need to be smuggled in. Their range is limited.
I was referring to Grad rockets supplied to Gaza by Iran via smuggling tunnels. It is those rockets which have the range to reach heavily populated cities like Beer-Sheva, Ashkelon and Ashdod.
As for the destroying of Israeli settlements when we left : One of the reasons is that the Gaza strip has very few land reserves. If they ever wish to develop (maybe after Hamas is kicked out) they will have to build high, not spread out. The land we evacuated could be used as a locale for a brand new shining city, an example to the world. But they don't really want that right now, do they?

[Malatesta]

I've been remote traveling for the last three weeks with virtually no internet access while this has unfolded but its really quite shocking how out of the way Israel have gone to show the world their war crimes and murder of children.

[Inigima]

Israel needs to let reporters in so there's some kind of independent corroboration of reports. Allegations of atrocities that come from the people you're shooting at aren't exactly compelling.

Pro-Israel Facebook and similar groups flooded with messages, including [b]"death to the Jews"[/b] and [b]"we can't wait to murder you"[/b], and Facebook removes group titled [b]"Hitler Took the Right Decision With Jewish People"[/b]. But hey, antisemitism is dead and Palestinians and their supporters are lovely peace-seeking people, right?
[url="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,478626,00.html"]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,478626,00.html[/url]

[Moshe Goldberg Rubinshteyn]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1643602' date='Jan 10 2009, 05.45']I was referring to Grad rockets supplied to Gaza by Iran via smuggling tunnels.[/quote]
That's one long tunnel, dude.