Cockblocking

[Geddon]

[quote name='potsherds' post='1705008' date='Mar 2 2009, 19.26']People [i]in this thread[/i] have stated that us women were making a big issue over a whole lot of [i]harmless[/i] joking about. Joking about: yes, harmless: I strongly disagree.[/quote]

Well, you wouldn't, starting from what appears to be your default position of "men are scum and your [i]sisters[/i] need protecting from them". If we ever forget ourselves laugh at the ludicrousness of human interactions we might all forget to be on our guard against the wily man, his single track mind and uncontrollable urges.

[quote name='potsherds' post='1705008' date='Mar 2 2009, 19.26']And 'men' still behave badly toward 'women'. If you don't mind me using your sweeping generalization of one entire gender towards the other. Sexism, misogyny and abuse are certainly not gone, only reduced, by some amount that I hardly think is substantial, and all of these things will be here for a long while yet. So forgive me for my general attitude of derisive skepticism when a couple of guys moan over being repressed when they don't get away with their nasty banter about women.[/quote]

If the rofl smiley didn't reveal everything anyone needs to know about your attitude then that paragraph does; "My gender has been oppressed, damn it, until that debt is paid I get to be as sexist as I want."

[potsherds]

Geddon, dear. Not sure how you're extrapolating my personal philosophy from my response to you. Baffling. Seems to me you're just putting words in my mouth in order to demonize me as I never said anything close to your offensive summary. Ah, well. :dunno:

[Alarich]

[quote]No, I'm saying that if you bring a woman who is "still conscious" another drink because she asks for one, or because you ask her if she wants one, and she says yes, you're in the clear.[/quote]

Maybe you're in the clear, but when you see that another person is clearly drunk, getting them even more drunk to sleep with him/her is scumbag behaviour, even if that person asks for more drinks.



Also, just to add my two cents, fucking a totally drunk random stranger is a really dumb idea.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

And yet like that last drink and the dodgy kebab, when you're drunk it somehow seems like a perfectly sensible idea sometimes....

[Walpurgisborn]

[quote name='Geddon' post='1705029' date='Mar 2 2009, 14.44']Well, you wouldn't, starting from what appears to be your default position of "men are scum and your [i]sisters[/i] need protecting from them". If we ever forget ourselves laugh at the ludicrousness of human interactions we might all forget to be on our guard against the wily man, his single track mind and uncontrollable urges.



If the rofl smiley didn't reveal everything anyone needs to know about your attitude then that paragraph does; "My gender has been oppressed, damn it, until that debt is paid I get to be as sexist as I want."[/quote]
Pots is many things (most good), but a reactionary Dworkin-style feminist is really not one of them.

[Guest Raidne]

[quote name='S John' post='1704974' date='Mar 2 2009, 13.47']:lol: When I mentioned 'wasting drinks' I'm talking about the $6 beers that are worth 30 cents that I wasted on [i]myself[/i]. Plenty of girls flirt with guys to get free drinks, I wasnt born yesterday. I very, very, very rarely buy drinks for a girl I just met. So to be clear, getting a girl hammered is [i]not [/i]what I was talking about.[/quote]

Honestly, even if you meant you wasted the drinks you bought her once you figured out she wasn't interested in you (or your friend fucked it up), what's wrong with that? When a guy offers to buy me a drink is when I emphasize that I'm happily married, so I know we're on the same page and I'm not wasting his time and/or money. As long as it's not like, you're buying her drinks, you both seem interested, she gives you her number, and you don't go home with her that night and you think it's a waste of money - which I'm pretty sure you wouldn't - who cares?

Drinks are f*ing expensive around here.

[quote name='S John' post='1705010' date='Mar 2 2009, 14.31']...I basically have wasted my night that I would have much rather spent at a quieter bar with better music, better beers, and [b]without overpriced drinks.[/b][/quote]

So...where's that? Because we should go there for the next BwB meet-up we're planning.

[quote name='Alarich' post='1705043' date='Mar 2 2009, 14.54']Maybe you're in the clear, but when you see that another person is clearly drunk, getting them even more drunk to sleep with him/her is scumbag behaviour, even if that person asks for more drinks.[/quote]

My presumption is that if you get a girl another drink who asks for another drink, you're getting it for her because she wants one, not because you're trying to get her so drunk that she'll have sex with you. I'm sure it's not always that way, but I don't presume men are scumbags, so that's my presumption unless there's some other reason to assume otherwise.

[needle]

'Course, there's another factor here in how well 'hypothetical' woman holds her drinks. :)

[tenalpia]

I've been following this thread and whilst there are some comments that have made me laugh out loud and some that have been 'omfg I can't believe they said that', I've been trying to figure out what it is exactly that has created the underlying sensation of nausea that is produced by much of the sentiment expressed.

I have no problem with people hooking up and having a good time. Sex is about consenting adults attempting to have a mutally enjoyable experience - I may be wrong but that has always been my understanding :P So I reckon that the thing I find so distasteful about some of the attitudes coming across in this thread is that the other party isn't really 'present' - it is all about the sex and nothing to do with the other person involved. In fact the less 'present' that person is the better, so the more drunk they are the better, the more likely you are to get what you want. That is just so wrong! If it's sex that you want then you should want the other person to be right there with you and if your idea of sex is to just slip it in wiggle it about and with any luck she / he won't even know that you've been there then you might as well save yourself a lot of hassle and stay home and have a wank because you're not doing anyone any favours!

[Alarich]

[quote]My presumption is that if you get a girl another drink who asks for another drink, you're getting it for her because she wants one, not because you're trying to get her so drunk that she'll have sex with you.[/quote]

Well, I don't buy drinks for strangers just because they want one, so I'm always presuming that there is some kind of intention.

But I'm a closefisted bastard who mistrusts public displays of generosity. :)

[SquireThomas]

Whew, lot of action here since last night.

Litechick:

[quote]I don't think innocent men should take offense because I took care to qualify my language with 'many' 'most' or 'some'. I didn't make sweeping statements like "every man in the history of the world.." If my comments don't apply to you, don't take them personally.

It's confusing to me why some seem to take my comments as a sweeping indictment of every man who's ever tried to start a conversation with a woman in a bar. It would be nice if we could agree that no sweeping judgment is being made unless the person says specifically that every person in ABC group does XYZ but perhaps that is asking too much. If I didn't address you but you see yourself in my criticism, that's you making the judgment not me.[/quote]

This is a really odd statement, and even though you try to clarify it down thread, it still doesn't make much sense to me. Are you really not seeing how "many" or "most" ISN'T some kind of sweeping statement? Do these words mean something different to me than they do to you? 'Cause to me, they mean "majority" and the "trend" you've downgraded to later on doesn't seem much better. I think your feeling here are pretty clear: most guys in a bar are some kind of predators who are here to take advantage. You're always telling everyone to be honest, so if this is what you mean, why not just come out and say it?

[quote]To those who think I have accused them unfairly I say: Prove me wrong. Every interaction you have with the opposite sex, keep it forefront in your mind that she is a human being whether you find her attractive or not, whether you think you can get her in bed or not, whether she is an obstacle to your objectives or not. Kindness is not weakness even if your buddies are there making ribald remarks and generally behaving like jackasses. If every courteous interaction is followed by a mental "fuck you litechick!" that's fine with me. I embrace it.[/quote]

Good god. Are you seriously going to now tell you don't have some kind of underlying hostility towards a lot of men? Thanks for the tip I suppose, before you came in to enlighten me, I was considering all women as subhuman troll beasts. Classy of you to assume though that all my buddies are jackasses who are just waiting for the first opportunity to tear women down. No bias there, nosireebob.

[quote]Please do not mistake my use of the word 'courteous.' I'm not trying to be some sexual Emily Post. I don't think that courtesy and ribaldry are mutually exclusive. I'm just talking about treatment which is not derogatory. When my crew guys mime giving me an eiffel tower, I take it in the spirit intended and consider it charmingly affectionate.][/quote]

I honestly have no idea how it is you want me to act. What is "deragatory" to you if miming double-stuffing a girl isn't? Yeah, you say you "take it in the spirit it's intended", but I thought the whole point of this thread is that the spirit in which anything is intended isn't always clear? You're creating so many bizzare standards about how men are supposed to act that it doesn't really leave me any place to go. Be courteous, but not too courteous! You can mime fucking me from both ends, so long as its in a charmingly affectionate way?

[quote]Some women are sexually sophisticated and ready to engage in sexual negotiations over drinks and ask no quarter. Some women want romance and naively interpret your interest as interest in her as a person and not just interest in her pussy. Women need to learn the difference, men need to learn the difference. Mistakes will be made but a woman doesn't have carte blanche to assume genuine interest in her as a person and men don't have carte blanche to do her even if she is not sophisticated.[/quote]

Honestly, your blatant sexist shines through like a beacon on a hill here. Why do you even assume it's always going to be the woman who wants more? Let me give you a little example here: last Halloween, I hook up with this girl Liz, who I met at a bar downtown. Now, I'd met her once or twice before, extremely briefly, because we had mutual friends, but this was the first time we had a real conversation. We talk for a while, hit it off (her ultra-hot 5th element costume didn't hurt), and eventually go back to her place. Now, I thought this was all pretty cool, since she was sexy and nice, so I call her a few days later, to see if the wants to hit a show the next weekend. At that point, she basically tells me, in nicer words, that she isn't looking for any attachments at all, something which I'm pretty dissapointed to hear, but accept and deal with. End of story. This happens often to people of both genders who go to bars, but in your mind, all men are still predatory shitheads, and women are wilting violets whose feelings must be protected at all costs. How Victorian of you.

Lyanna:
[quote]I've been the victim of that once, in my youth. It was done to me by a guy I trusted, whom I used to work with. I asked him to please give me water since I felt I was getting too drunk and wanted to correct it. He got me a double drink of something, clear liquid. How do I know this, you ask? Because I got told afterwards what happened by people who had seen it. Myself, after I asked this guy to please get me a glass of water, I have no memory of it. Is that rape? Is it sexual abuse? Is it just that I "should not have trusted him" and been cleverer?[/quote]

This is clearly date rape. I don't see this as any different from a girl requesting a vodka tonic, and me pouring GHB into it. In both cases, you clearly request one thing, and I give you another with the intent of getting you wasted enough to fuck me. In the US, you get arrested for that kind of thing.

[quote]Well he wasn't dating me, nor was he planning to. He just saw the opportunity and went for it. You can argue that he didn't know how drunk I was (which is likely) and that he just wanted to lower my inhibitions. It's really not that uncommon.[/quote]

Frankly, yes it is, at least where I live. Trying to get a girl to have more drinks, maybe, but lying to her to get her to do it? Like I said, you can easily be arrested.

[quote]Well, this is again a question of where the line should be drawn. I used to work in a bar and it's fairly common for guys to buy double strength drinks when they're out trying to "ply" girls to become more willing if they are not initially all too keen. Is that deceiving? Should they act differently?[/quote]

Yes? Remind me not to move to England.

Needle:

[quote]Agreed, Derfel. I think I probably did that once or twice when I was young and drunk, and it's not big and it's not clever. Men should absolutely be afforded the same rights not to be harassed as women.[/quote]

Does kind of show off the double-standard, doesn't it? If I had posted "oh yeah, when I was young and drunk, I used to flip up women's skirts to check if they were wearing panties", not "big", or "clever", would be far from the worst thing people said about me. In fact, I'd be buried in shit, and rightfully so.

[quote]And you don't get to shit on the women here for defending themselves or their gender without pissing pretty much most of us off.[/quote]

Who's shitting on anybody? All I'm interested in doing is debating what seems like a clear double-standard to me. There's been a little acrimony, sure, but also some really interesting and thought provoking posts. Pots' pathetic and mean-spirited little snipes really doesn't help that though, any more than McBig's 1950s style yes-means-no date rape manifesto from a few pages back.

In conclusion, let me say this: I do try to be considerate of people's feelings. That being said, I honestly don't think I need to have an explicit conversation about the meaning of our hook-up before it happens, like Eloisa and Aoife seem to be requesting. If I ask every girl I ever hook up with what the exact nature of our post-sex relationship will be before it even starts, I will come off as insane or a stalker. I treat women as rational adults, who can make their own decisions: if someone assumes that because we talked for a few hours and then slept together, it is now [i]guranteed[/i] that we will have a relationship, they have emotional problems that have little to do with me. Sure, like me in my example, sometimes one partner will end up wanting more than the other, and they may be dissapointed: but they will deal with it, and move on, like sane people do.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Oh, sure. But at the same time, if you know damn well this is a one-off, I still think it's a good idea to let the other person know ahead of time. I know from my own experience that having that information would have changed my answer in one or two cases.* Not all, and I didn't feel misled about it, but I would have preferred making a more informed decision.

*Not least the time where it turns out we wouldn't see each other again because he was moving with his gf to where her new job was. :ack: One of the times I was glad we were both too drunk to actually go through with it all, in the end, but things wouldn't even have gotten to that point had I known. :P

[Geddon]

[quote name='needle' post='1705025' date='Mar 2 2009, 19.41']Sorry, no. You don't get to be opressers for all of human history, and then act a little miffed when people don't like you saying 'jokily' opressive stuff. And you don't get to shit on the women here for defending themselves or their gender without pissing pretty much most of us off.[/quote]

I don't mind people defending their gender by attacking posts, I do mind people doing it by attacking the other gender. As I said, some of the posts in this thread reveal a level of contempt for men that I find disturbing. Contempt not for the post, not for the poster, but for men in general.

[quote name='potsherds' post='1705040' date='Mar 2 2009, 19.52']Not sure how you're extrapolating my personal philosophy from my response to you. Baffling. Seems to me you're just putting words in my mouth in order to demonize me as I never said anything close to your offensive summary.[/quote]

Hmm, maybe I saw this part about how abuse was still going on and gender inequality was still a problem:

[quote]Sexism, misogyny and abuse are certainly not gone, only reduced, by some amount that I hardly think is substantial, and all of these things will be here for a long while yet.[/quote]

and then this part about how your derisive scepticism was therefore forgiveable:

[quote]So forgive me for my general attitude of derisive skepticism when a couple of guys moan over being repressed when they don't get away with their nasty banter about women.[/quote]

and made the leap to thinking that your personal philosophy is that current gender inequality is excuse enough for you to give short shrift to men's complaints when they feel they are being treated unfairly on a gender related issue. TBH it's not a great leap for someone who has read your posts on these forums over any length of time.

As an aside I don't think those guys are moaning about not getting away with "nasty banter", I think they are upset because they feel that they, and indeed their whole gender, have been attacked to an extent not warranted by those initial comments.

[needle]

[quote]Does kind of show off the double-standard, doesn't it? If I had posted "oh yeah, when I was young and drunk, I used to flip up women's skirts to check if they were wearing panties", not "big", or "clever", would be far from the worst thing people said about me. In fact, I'd be buried in shit, and rightfully so.[/quote]

True. Good post, Squire T, on the whole.

[potsherds]

[quote name='Geddon' post='1705134' date='Mar 2 2009, 22.13']and made the leap to thinking that your personal philosophy is that current gender inequality is excuse enough for you to give short shrift to men's complaints when they feel they are being treated unfairly on a gender related issue. TBH it's not a great leap for someone who has read your posts on these forums over any length of time.

As an aside I don't think those guys are moaning about not getting away with "nasty banter", I think they are upset because they feel that they, and indeed their whole gender, have been attacked to an extent not warranted by those initial comments.[/quote]
Ok, that's clearer. I see how you came to that conclusion. Not my intention. My impression is that a whole lot of the complaints in this thread by some male posters have been directly related to people speaking up over their language and attitude toward women in the bar they've tried to take to bed. That's not oppression, that's being called out for nasty attitudes and language. And I find it laughable to say one feels like you're oppressed because said person can't get away with speaking about women as no more than a thing which has a innie for one's outie or as the guardian at the gate of your hand's replacement . That's where my derision is directed. It's baffling to me to feel oppressed when you don't get away with a language and an attitude of oppression and are instead called on it.

[VarysTheSpider]

[quote name='Eloisa' post='1704851' date='Mar 2 2009, 17.11']In England and Wales it is a criminal offence to be drunk in a pub or club, and therefore for a pub or club to sell alcohol to an inebriated person.[/quote]
That's hilarious. I can actually be prosecuted for getting drunk in a pub?! I guess the fact that nobody's heard of the law means it's enforced as often as the old law about how you can shoot a Welshman who comes within the city limits or something. :P

[Lyanna Stark]

[quote name='Geddon' post='1705134' date='Mar 2 2009, 22.13']I don't mind people defending their gender by attacking posts, I do mind people doing it by attacking the other gender. As I said, some of the posts in this thread reveal a level of contempt for men that I find disturbing. Contempt not for the post, not for the poster, but for men in general.

As an aside I don't think those guys are moaning about not getting away with "nasty banter", I think they are upset because they feel that they, and indeed their whole gender, have been attacked to an extent not warranted by those initial comments.[/quote]

I definitely don't agree with you. The posts in this thread that are written by women are written specifically as a reaction to the views and opinions written by a few men. They are not women sitting down moaning about men in general and without any context. Read the comments here for yourself and see what you think. Are they not over the top? Do we not have a right to voice our complaints? Should we STFU and take it like good girls?


The accusations that have been flying around in this thread is that basically myself, needle, potsherds, chaldanya et al are all Andrea Dworkin style anarcho-feminists who make up crazy stories about men to prove how much we hate them. Which is not only not in any way true, but also far fetched.

Men as a group are not oppressed. They really, really aren't. To claim this is to have no grasp on reality.


Squire Thomas,

Well, this incident happened 13 odd years ago and not in the UK. Unfortunately, it is not very uncommon anywhere, is my guess. I certainly didn't hang out in any sleazy bars or clubs. A bit of digging around if your female friends are feeling truthful will probably reveal far worse things. In my experience, the rate of women who have been raped, tricked, date raped, or sexually abused is staggeringly large, although most never talk about it, or if they do, only to a couple very close friends. It's good that you are relatively straight forward and your friends aren't creepy, but that doesn't mean it's uncommon for other people to be the opposite, unfortunately.

[Horza]

[quote name='VarysTheSpider' post='1705187' date='Mar 3 2009, 09.00']That's hilarious. I can actually be prosecuted for getting drunk in a pub?! I guess the fact that nobody's heard of the law means it's enforced as often as the old law about how you can shoot a Welshman who comes within the city limits or something. :P[/quote]

Same law in Australia - and it is usually enforced by the pubs ( a mate of mine got chucked out because he was a little tired and they thought he'd passed out). Intoxicated means legless, slurring "Y...y.ou...you're my b-bes-est mate" trying-to-buy-booze-with-your-car-keys drunk, not tipsy.

[TerraPrime]

SquireThomas:

There are any number of venues in which men are unfairly treated. Being called out for the inherent sexism in the one-night-stand pick-up mentality is not one of them.

[Myshkin]

Apparently my post didn't get posted. I used some pretty strong language in it, so I can see why a mod may have removed it. In my defense I was pretty upset. I've had a few minutes to think about it, and see now that perhaps Lyanna Stark misunderstood me, and that was why she made such accusations about me personally. I will endeavor now to clarify:

[quote name='Lyanna Stark @ Mar 2 2009' date=' 01.12']Why the moaning Myshkin? Are you feeling put upon by femininsts not wanting chavinism? Are you the sort of bloke who goes out and gets women so drunk they don't know who they are anymore?[/quote]
I will go on the assumption that you thought I was somehow defending drink-spiking, or getting a women too drunk to consent, as not being rape. Let me be clear, I firmly believe that intoxicating or incapacitating a person to the point where they can no longer make an informed decision is rape. I was upset that some people were making the accusation that men in this thread, and men in general, were getting women drunk passed the point of consent in order to have sex with them, thereby accusing the men in this thread, and men in general, of rape. I am still upset that you have now accused me [i]personally[/i] of rape.

[quote name='Lyanna Stark' post='1704628' date='Mar 2 2009, 05.38']Well, according to Myshkin, this was "accusations of rape", which I guess makes what happened to me and many other women our own fault, I guess.[/quote]
I will go on the assumption that you took my comment about women being responsible for their actions as some sort of attack on the victim, that I was casting blame on the victims of rape. Let me be clear, I was not. And I am very upset that you thought I was. I was responding to a post made by litechick in which she asked us men to admit that our objectives (sex) where not in the best interest of women, and we're in fact "wrong". Litechick's position seems to suggest that a) we men have tricked all women to sleep with us, and b) women can't be trusted to know what is in their best interest. This was why I talked about responsibility. If a man picks up a woman at a bar, should we assume that it was all his idea and that the woman had no say in it? Or should we assume that it was mutual, that [i]both[/i] parties made their own decisions?

[TerraPrime]

Myshkin:

[quote name='Myshkin' post='1705305' date='Mar 2 2009, 17.32']Let me be clear, I firmly believe that intoxicating or incapacitating a person to the point where they can no longer make an informed decision is rape. I was upset that some people were making the accusation that men in this thread, and men in general, were getting women drunk passed the point of consent in order to have sex with them, thereby accusing the men in this thread, and men in general, of rape.[/quote]

I think there's room to quibble on whether Lyanna specifically accused all men who ever tried to get laid by offering to buy drinks for women are committing rape. My own guess is that she doesn't think so, but she can clarify her own opinions on that.

Me, I think mixing alcohol and sex is a terribad idea. I know. Heresy. I was told last time that this topic came up that without alcohol, half the people wouldn't be having sex. I suppose. But knowing that alcohol impairs judgment, and knowing that some people (men and women) hope to profit from this state of impaired judgment, and knowing that some of those who hope to profit from this actively try to bring about this state of impaired judgment is enough to make me uncomfortable with shacking up with drunk people at all. The only redeeming part of the equation is that for the most part, though not always, the people taking the drinks are themselves aware of the game being played.

I'm guessing that there are any number of reasons why a man might want to buy a woman a drink at a bar:
1. To show that he's generous
2. To show that he's got his eyes on her
3. Hopes that the recipient will feel obliged to at least small-talk with him
4. Assumes that that's what the woman wants because, well, she's already drinking and she's at a bar
5. That's really the only option at a bar to show that you want their attention. I guess you can send over a bowl of pretzels...
6. Hopes that maybe if she's drunk enough she will agree to fuck

I think, for a small number of men who go to pick-up bars, #6 is part of their motivations. They don't have to get the woman so drunk that she cannot walk straight, imo. Just plying someone with alcohol is, in itself, icky, imo. YMMV.